April 29, 2025
TU: Respect, artifical intelligence and toxic femininity - the teenage view
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What do you think of this episode? Do you have any topics you'd like me to cover?
When I asked listeners for their questions one stood out as a worthy of almost an entire episode:
'What does it take to respect people around you, especially your parents?'
There's so much that could be said on this topic that it think I might give it a deeper dive at some point, but the insight from my teens was very interesting nonetheless.
Artificial Intelligence is everywhere in the news, but what I don't see is a coherent approach across education. Again, it's an area that the sector is struggling to grasp, without clear leadership from the top. I thought it worth getting a snapshot of what's it's like from a teen point of view.
Finally, a comment on LinkedIn by Liam McGuire made me stop and think about the concept of Toxic Femininitiy, and why we aren't labelling and discussing certain behaviour by females in the same way that we do when it comes to men.
The upsurge in girls being obsessed with skin care routines, and content from Only Fans leaching into general social media, should surely give us cause to stop and ask why the people peddling this stuff are getting away without being questioned and shamed for their behaviour.
If you'd like support in creating rules and consequences that are based on respect,and that actually work, here's a link to the episode and my blog on the topic:
EPISODE:
https://www.teenagersuntangled.com/videos/32-consequences-and-the-teen-who-doesnt-seem-to-care/
BLOG: https://www.teenagersuntangled.com/blog/whats-going-on-when-our-boundaries-and-consequences-dont-seem-to-work/
I'd LOVE to know what you think about the topics we discuss in this episode, or any other questions and topics you would like us to cover. Please email your thoughts to me, Rachel, at teenagersuntangled@gmail.com
Thank you so much for your support.
Please hit the follow button if you like the podcast, and share it with anyone who might benefit. You can review us on Apple podcasts by going to the show page, scrolling down to the bottom where you can click on a star then you can leave your message.
I don't have medical training so please seek the advice of a specialist if you're not coping.
My email is teenagersuntangled@gmail.com
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www.teenagersuntangled.com
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Susie is available for a free 15 minute consultation, and has a great blog:
www.amindful-life.co.uk
WEBVTT
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Rachel, hello and welcome to teenagers.
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Untangled the audio hug for parents going through the teen and tween years. I'm Rachel Richards, parenting coach, journalist, mother of two teenagers and two bonus daughters. Now I had my daughters in the studio recently. We answered some questions sent in by listeners.
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I really enjoyed it. I learned a lot from it, and I thought, why not just get them in again? We have a few more questions. So welcome Phoebe and Amelia. Hi.
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We're going to talk today about respect, a chart of emojis that I did mention in one of my previous episodes. And people are still interested in getting the chart of emojis, and I want to talk about that, AI and toxic femininity, if we have time to get to that, right. So one of the questions I want to start with is one that really stood out to me, and you could probably do an entire episode on it, but let's see how we get on.
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And the question is, what does it take to respect people around you, especially your parents. So this was, I think, a mother who asked this question. It sounds to me like she's exasperated with her teenager. So, so first of all, what do you think? How do you have sort of off the cuff response to that question?
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Well, I mean, when you mentioned it to us before mine, like immediate response was, then there's, there has to be mutual respect. Like the child has to feel like they're
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completely respected by the parent. You have to give respect to get respect. And I think I don't like the whole hierarchy thing where just because somebody's older than you, you have to respect them. I think you should start off with respect for everybody, but then as soon as somebody proves you that you shouldn't be respecting them then, but yeah,
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but I think kids are conscious of that. Yeah, you know, even, even young ones, they know if they're not if, if they're being treated and like and they feel like they're not being respected by their parents, then they're not going to respond with that either.
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It's interesting, isn't it, because David Jager, who wrote the book 10 to 25 says that once kids hit 10 and above, they are utterly focused on respect. It's really interesting. And I looked up the definitions for respect. So one of the definitions was a feeling of deep admiration for someone or something, elicited by their abilities, qualities or achievements. I think that goes above what I thought. And then the other one was, Do you regard for the feelings, wishes or rights of others? That's sort of closer to what I think of when I think of respect. What do you think?
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Yeah. I mean, yeah. I think that the second one is Yeah.
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And actually I think that. So that second definition, to me, that's almost about good manners, that's just treating other people the way that you would like to be treated, and it's been considerate of other people's needs, right? Does that make sense? Yeah, okay, so I think my most challenging parent at parent gym was someone who set out to challenge my position, and she walked in late, or not late, right at the very end, when we were, when we were just about to start, marched straight past me to the window carrying a bag of chips, and looked out of the window, and I said, Oh, welcome Hi. Nice to meet you.
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And she went, I'm eating chips.
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And, oh, I hadn't realized. And it was so interesting, because I recognized that, I recognized that feeling that she had, and the need she felt to assert her own independence. And I thought, this is someone who hasn't been treated with respect. So I just said to her, Oh, that's fine.
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Would you like a cup of tea or maybe a biscuit with and we set off like that. And over the weeks, when I showed her a lot of respect and actually, genuinely thought she was an interesting person, our relationship really blossomed.
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Yeah, and I think that's a good example of how when we treat other people with respect, you will find that they start to return. Yeah.
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But see you were the person in power, which is why you were the one who needed to treat her with respect to gain her respect.
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I like that.
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And I
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think, yeah,
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yes. And in a way, we have to set the tone.
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And I found when I was a teenager, before I became a teenager, I grew up in a household that was very hierarchical and very much authoritarian. And up until probably the teen years, I didn't really question it much.
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I didn't like it, but I didn't really question it. But I then started to realize that I didn't like what was being done. And I tried to show how I thought things should be, but that wasn't my I couldn't do that.
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Yeah. So I every time I tried to sort of say, well, I don't think this is, you know, the way I think that we should run this household. I would get knocked back, and my mother would just say, well, you should respect your father. Why? Why should I respect my father? Yeah,
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and also kids, like, not even kids, but we are judging you, even subconsciously you were judging me, no, but, you know, like. But no, but it's interesting, because I do often find myself sort of analyzing interactions that either you've had with us or with daddy or, you know, and I'm not, I'm not actively pondering over though I'm going, you know, but, but we do think about about things like that interesting. And I have a friend who, unfortunately is not very close with her mother, and a massive part of that is because she has lost huge respect for her in the way that she's gone about dealing with some things that have come up and, you know, and yeah, we are looking at our parents, who are meant to be sort of role models, and showing us how to treat people, and if they're like reacting unreasonably, then then kids aren't getting respect
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to you, I love that. And I think what's interesting is I've read the book family dynamic, which is all about the families, where all the kids do really, really well. And the reason I thought it was such an interesting book, was it the experience of the author, Susan Dominus, was the same as mine when she was a teenager, went to go and spend time with another family, and suddenly realized that people do things differently. And it was a really, real shock to her, and it also started a lifelong interest in how other family dynamics worked, and that happened to me too. I went to a friend's house, and the father actually asked me what how my day had been, and I'd never experienced that before, and it suddenly made me think, oh gosh, actually, wow. Some people have dads who take an interest in them, and I think that then sets off this questioning of your own family and the dynamic that's happening there. Yeah. And
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you also have to think about, would you also consciously communicating to your your kids as well, because if, if, for example, you've always brought your kids up to know that there's, you know, you've got the adults table, and you've got the kids table like work from a young age, and you know, they won't sit with you on a bit then, then when they grow up, and you're expecting them to act like adults, but they're, you know, they've never been given that responsibility, and you know, they're not going to like behave the way that you would like them to and fit in within an adult situation, because you've always treated them as younger, and kids pick up on that. Yeah.
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I mean, this comes into school too, doesn't it? Are there? Are there people teachers that you particularly respect, or ones you don't respect. And Are there reasons for that? Yes,
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definitely. I had one teacher my old school who was the most incredible teacher, and the reason, and I really, really respected him. He like, he Yeah, he stay after school to help people. He was, yeah, he believed in everybody and every one of his students and yeah, that really made everybody want to work hard and who spent equal time on the people who are better, the people who are worse, whereas a lot of teachers like that validation from the people who are better, and they're like, Oh yeah, they're gonna spend all their time with them and, like, helping them so that they can do really well and just kind of neglect the other people. But he was like, okay, every single one of you can get a nine. And he taught also in kind of a different way to other people like he, I remember he was a chemistry teacher, and he was like, oh, yeah, you can never use a mount like the word amount in your chemistry paper, because I would like, you'll lose marks. So he got out a piece of paper, written mount on it, and then burnt the piece of paper. I love it, yeah. And that's really stuck in my brain, but yeah, he was like, I just we, I think all of us in that class really respected him. And he was also quite strict. But it wasn't strict in a bad way. It wasn't like, oh yeah, like, strict for no reason. It was like, if you, if you're doing something wrong, you're gonna get told
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off. Yeah, yeah. Big for me, a big factor is, can you control the class? But also, again, like, if kids aren't, if you can't control them, then a lot of the time it's because they don't respect you like them because so it's a vicious cycle.
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And then I lose respect for my teachers who, you know, who don't respond. But yeah. I mean even things like, you know, making threats and then not following through. Oh, that's a big one.
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I get parents, big mistake,
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yeah, and we're aware of it. Like, I haven't had many, many experiences of that with you, because you do well,
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that's one of the things I learned in parent gym coaching parents in inner city, London. Critically, you you simply can't. We had a really great example of that, which was if you play a game and you say, there's a forfeit, and then you say, Oh, actually, it's fine. It's fine. I don't I don't want to make you feel bad. And then, then the next time you played the game, nobody will believe you, and
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people will get even more angry when you do follow through Yes, because they
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will go on last time.
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Yes.
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Consistency is critical,
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not even just that. If you're going to put in a rule for your child, you also need to be doing that rule like that is such a big thing if you tell your kid to not. Have their phone in their room when they're sleeping. You can't have yours in your room either. Then they're just like, What the hell? Because you're doing your your preaching, but you're not following, yeah, your own rules, yes, and that's something
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that we make sure we do in our own home. I do, I do try to lead with a realization that I, what I do, actually matters. So fairness and consistency matter, I think mutual trust, so kids and adults respect people they trust. Yes,
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going through phones, yeah, no, no. I don't know why I just came up with that, but
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yeah, I
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think it's a real issue. Well, actually, that brings me on to the emoji question. So there was an emoji chart issued by is a great guy, and I will put it up on the website, just so that people have it. And the emoji chart was off the back of the adolescence episode, and it was a guide to parents who might be thinking, what are these emotions emojis mean? And the adolescents, Netflix adolescent series demonstrated kids using emojis and parents not understanding them. And i i Then hesitated, and I thought, actually, I
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didn't understand half of them. Well, yes,
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and I think they will vary with different groups. And I also think if you don't understand a child's emoji and you can't say to them, what does that mean? First of all, why are you looking at their emojis? So are you going through their phone and thinking, what does this emoji mean? Or are you not able to ask them? And in either of those cases, there's a an issue with trust, isn't there? So it's actually made me think maybe the answer is not to try and give parents emoji charts to understand what's going on. It's it's actually maybe have proper conversations with your child, and that's the most important thing. It's about the connection. I
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was thinking of a different it's very similar. But the dad had read something on the news, or something, and some celebrity had died, and he said, Oh, this person's dead scar emoji, which is like,
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it's like, I'm dying with laughter when it's like, This is so funny. I use it to be, like, sarcastic as well.
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Skull, skull basically just taking the pits out.
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And that's okay, yes, I love that. And that's like, when you go into a foreign country and you start using words thinking, you know, like, which is when you think you're saying embarrassed as an English person, but what you're actually saying is, I'm pregnant. Yeah, it's classic.
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It's a classic. So, yes, don't try it unless you really understand what you're talking about. So, yeah, so I think we have to understand that also.
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One last thing I want to say about respect is that I think you can't truly respect others if you don't believe you matter too. It starts with how you treat yourself and how your child sees you doing that. So as a parent, you need to respect yourself. You need to treat yourself with the way you talk about the self yourself, the way you set boundaries in your home, the way you talk to other people. I think all of this your kids watching and judging.
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Also, I have another thing. So if you want respect from your child, you can't coddle them either. Oh, interesting. What do you mean?
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They weren't very nice to their parents. And their parents really would like, like, hurt by that, and would do anything to get her to like them. And then they would give her concert tickets. They would give her all the staff money, like presents, all this stuff, like check out, whatever. And, yeah, she just that didn't help us, because it was like, what was the point in trying to be nice if you were just gonna give them all their stuff? And you know, that doesn't form respect either.
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Yeah,
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yeah, I can see that. Yeah, it did. It make her and not like them
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anymore. And, then yeah.
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And it's, it goes back to treat people the way you'd like to be treated. May not I would like you to be doing that. Like, give me as many concert tickets as you want, but like, it like, if she's treating you badly, we need to be putting boundaries in place, yes and say, not actually, even just getting in touch with your emotions and being like, okay, you've just said this, and that's hurt me because of this, instead of just doing a bunch of stuff and hoping that it's going to
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go away, yes, and being a real being vulnerable yourself in a way, so that they can see that that's not an acceptable thing to do, yeah, I agree with that. Yeah, yeah. My vulnerability is on my sleeve, right? I think that's a very, very interesting topic.
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Let's talk about AI. The reason I want to talk about this is I saw a headline that I shared on social media which said that all Chinese kids are required to learn AI starting in September.
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But as you mentioned, Amelia, there was no detail. Yeah. And one of our listeners, Leonardo Fauci, who's a teacher in Italy, commented, what does it mean to study AI, to learn how to use it, to write better prompts, to understand AI and how it's built, how it works. I mean, what are they talking about? And he says, personally, I started walking students through AI, encouraging them to carefully experiment with whichever things might be useful for them. And he uses those resources for teachers that are freely available. And he says it's already happening in most schools. Is that your experience?
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Yes, I think with some teachers, with other teachers, they were like, you use AI.
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You're gonna get like, we can see it. You're gonna get like, no, really, really bad grade.
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Like, we're gonna punish, like, do something to stop you, or something like that. And with other teachers, it was like, use AI to your advantage. You know, make it formulate questions for you. Make it like AI. So they coached you. So, so good. Like, honestly, not just because it's like, oh yeah, just write me out a paragraph. Like, that's not the right way to use it, because when it gets to your exam, that's not going to be any help.
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But, like, it's so good because it can basically write your whole paper on anything you want, so you don't have to pay for anything. It can explain any topic is, yeah, it's
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a good night. My experience was, I mean, I remember when chatgpt very first came out, and I was doing my GCSEs, I mean, even before that, but I remember a boy turning to me and showing me it, and I was like, what
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that's like when I first discovered Google?
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Yeah, and I
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thought it was really stupid because it just wouldn't give me any of the right information. I was like, I was smarter than a robot, but the school's initial reaction was to completely shut it down. I remember they blocked it interesting on our phones, on our laptops, we weren't allowed to use it. And then they kind of gradually introduced it into, well, they haven't really introduced into lessons or anything like that, and they don't talk about it much, but, I mean, it's very obvious to your teachers, when you do use it, they can tell
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even, even if you use, like, humanizing, AI, that it's still, well,
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yeah. I mean, my I remember my teacher telling me that she had asked, she had given her class a prompt and and, you know, they went away to it was an essay or something, and they all came back with obviously different versions of this essay, but every single one had the same conclusion, like the same phrasing for the conclusion. And then she put the question to chatty beauty, and basically got the same essay that everyone else had written, just in the different words. So they can tell, well, I I'm
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interested in this because so I remember a couple of years ago, a professor in Hong Kong saying we shouldn't be saying, don't use AI. We should be saying, Go away and write your best essay using Yeah, the power of AI to help you Yeah, and that we should be guiding kids to understand how to leverage it
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in my photography class when I was still at school there. So we were we, obviously we'd take pictures, or we'd be given an artist reference, and we'd have to write essays on it, and then we put them into our pages. And I had an artist and I couldn't find anything about them online, so I searched it up and chat GPT. I was like, Can you give me some prompts? Like, to like, search stuff up online.
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Can you give me some prompts to like, write my essay on that kind of stuff, which is really good for because it'll give you, like, a heading, and then you can write something and then start, yeah, really good. Now, my teacher comes behind me, and she goes, Why are you using AI?
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And I was like, I tried to explain it to her, and she was she got really angry at me, and then gave me, I think it was a demerit,
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right, right?
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And this is, I think there's a lot of fear, and I also think that, in a way, the ad hoc approach is not helpful, that they need whole school policies, and each of the teachers needs to be able to be supported.
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Because I spoke to a girl at a drinks party the other night, and she's at university, and she said that where she is, they're just saying, don't choose AI, which, again, is so unhelpful, because these are kids who are going to go into the workforce, and they're going to be expected to have at least a passing understanding of how to leverage it, and I think it's going to speed up a lot of the work processes. That's another
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thing. There were so many times at school where I was told not to do something, or I was told to do something, because that's what we'd have to do when we leave school. But then half the stuff that we also get told at school has nothing to do with anything we're going to be doing in the future, right? So like, for example, with AI, we're going to be using that in our experience some type of way. So being told not to use that is really unhelpful, because it's just not going to prepare you.
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And I have a theory that, well, I did an interview about memory quite a long time ago, and I said to the woman, yes, but we don't need our memory anymore because we have Google. And she said, That's not true. True, and it really stuck with me, because she said that the thing about memory is that we constantly use bits from our long term memory when we are creating a conversation and when we're creating an argument, and if you don't have that information either in your short term or your long term memory because you're so used to always looking things up, then you're actually going to struggle.
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You can't just pause the debate and start researching facts in the middle. You know, yes
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and but we have started doing that. I mean, we actually do that. Sometimes we'll as a family, we talk about a lot of things, and every now and then we'll say, Oh, we look that fact up. That's
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different, because we're fact checking stuff, fact checking stuff, like people will come out with stuff, I mean, mostly me, which isn't true.
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Yeah, it's good to look it up so that we actually
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ground ourselves. Yeah.
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I mean, we have to remember what the purpose of using AI is, because, or, like, why we're doing these things. Because, especially in schools, if you're being asked to write an essay, I mean, you made this point earlier. You're not being asked to write an essay for the sake of writing an essay. You know, like running it through AI and then just handing it in and not doing anything. What is the point of doing it? Might as well just not write
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the essay.
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Because the whole point about writing the essay I talked about this recently is is to actually help you develop your brain. I mean, your brain is very plastic. We're trying to get you to think more clearly and to be more analytical and critical.
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Yeah, and if you're not doing any of that, but AI is the benefit good
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for not fact checking, proofreading. It is like when you write an essay and then you put it into your Isa. Can you tell me if I've made any mistakes
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I've done that before? I mean, it depends on there are loads of different AI, sort of like platforms, but chatgpt is not good for that. Yeah, I put, I put my personal statement through it, and it gave me more mistakes than but what it is, you have to bear in mind that it's a language model, right? So it's terrible with maths. It it won't fact check for you. It will make things up for you. And it still does. It wants to give you stuff. It needs to come up with some kind of response. And it does not like saying, I'm sorry, I can't do this. So if you ask it to do something, it will do it for you, but it won't necessarily be correct. It will fabricate people, it will fabricate facts, sources, things like that. But you can tailor it to to
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which is why you shouldn't write your recipe using AI. Yeah,
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and I tell you what I use it for. I tried using it for sort of scripting my episodes. Awful, because it doesn't sound like me. It doesn't I just don't like it at all. I don't like using it for research. What I use it for is I will take a transcript of say what we've been doing, run it through AI to get it to make the bullet points, things like that, where I've done all the work beforehand, it's great at that stuff. Yeah, it's all my content. Yes, it's
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meant to help you, but not do things as I was saying, like it's, it's a language model, but it's like, biggest skill is CO day, and it's extremely good at coding, and I have no experience in computer science coding anything like I've never even really seen code before, but I yesterday, I got it to create a Chrome extension for me to block me from leaving the tab that I'm on for a certain amount of time when I'm working, to help you work, to help me work. And it's things like that. It doesn't it's not just restrained to, you know, writing and, you know, making essays or prompts or things like that, like you can actually make it, create things.
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Yes, that's amazing. You know,
00:23:32.299 --> 00:23:58.960
you know what you should try doing if you have chat GPG, it is actually really funny. I asked it to make me an eight step recipe on how to cook an egg, right? And it came up and half of it wasn't even an egg, like it was so bad at that kind of stuff. And it was actually just looking up online. No no, because I wanted to see what it would do. I also tried to get it to make me a map of Europe. It made up countries.
00:23:58.960 --> 00:24:23.720
I saw that that was very funny. It actually, literally made up countries, scrambled names. It was ridiculous. One thing I want to mention before we move on, is that I saw a headline in the time saying young people turn to AI for therapy over long NHS waiting list. NHS being our English healthcare system. Do you use chatgpt? I can see you laughing for this.
00:24:25.880 --> 00:24:39.079
I have actually turned to it before, yeah, and it's not bad. Yes, it's actually right because, as it's Affirmative. So chat GPT will tell you what you want to hear, but it will actually like
00:24:39.140 --> 00:24:40.880
there's nothing wrong with that. No, exactly.
00:24:40.880 --> 00:24:41.680
And if you're
00:24:41.680 --> 00:24:49.839
looking at No, but if you're looking for reassurance, it's very good, so don't worry.
00:24:44.559 --> 00:24:55.660
And yeah, exactly. It's, if you're catastrophizing, then it's, it's actually quite helpful to, you know, put your problem in chat up, but
00:24:55.660 --> 00:25:03.779
I think you've also used it for things like where you've had a feel. And you thought, I'm not sure why I'm having this feeling. Yeah,
00:25:03.960 --> 00:25:17.880
it's very good at sort of unpicking things that you give it. So there have been times when I've asked it, why might I be thinking this or feeling this way? And then if you give it some context and it might it can give you reasons behind that. And I have found
00:25:17.880 --> 00:25:21.140
it to be correct. My chat GPT started using emojis,
00:25:21.859 --> 00:25:25.220
started using emojis. That's not very helpful.
00:25:25.940 --> 00:25:26.960
So what we've already
00:25:28.880 --> 00:25:52.599
so rude. I asked it, okay? I asked it because I'm going traveling this summer, and I was looking for I already have a digital camera, but I was wondering whether there are any kind of old school, maybe film cameras or digital cameras that I can get for not very much money, you know, I wanted, like, budget, budget digital camera.
00:25:48.579 --> 00:26:34.640
And I asked it where, you know what the best models might be, and where I can get them. And it started giving me cameras in the like, grand 1000 you know, 2000 pound range. And I'm like, This is not what I want to take traveling with. This is going to get damaged. And so I came back to you, and I said, Well, that's not really very budget friendly, is it? And then it started being so sassy, so rude. And it was like, Well, you know, I guess we're not being very specific then about what we want, you know, let me like you, asked for good quality cameras, but I guess we're going budget now. So it was coming out with all these, and I made it apologize to me, because I was very hurt.
00:26:29.480 --> 00:26:36.619
It really wrecked my mood. I just wanted you to give me some cameras. Did you
00:26:37.099 --> 00:26:43.420
so did you actually say? I expect you to say, Sorry, yes, it was, did it?
00:26:39.380 --> 00:26:44.680
Did it? It came up with, actually, very good appointment
00:26:44.740 --> 00:26:57.519
several times, and it got more and more effusive. And it was like, Is there anything I can do? Yeah, if you want to find out how to apologize to someone very effectively, then ask chat. GPT, I love that. It can give me, yeah.
00:26:57.700 --> 00:27:06.240
Did you hear about that boy who was talking to the Google AI, and the Google AI told him to jump off a bridge.
00:27:07.799 --> 00:27:10.079
I did it. No,
00:27:10.319 --> 00:27:17.700
no, yeah. And they looked at they looked at the history, and they were like, Okay, this did he jump off the bridge? No, but he reported it.
00:27:14.640 --> 00:27:23.119
And they looked at the history, and they were like, This is completely unprompted. We don't know why, right decided to say this,
00:27:23.720 --> 00:28:48.279
and that is worrying. So let's quickly do a little bit about toxic femininity. And I say toxic femininity because a man called Liam McGuire, who's on LinkedIn, said, if this was in response to us talking about skin care obsessions and the fact that younger and younger girls seem to be getting hooked into this whole thing. And he said, If men or fathers were encouraging eight year old boys like their sons, to be macho, to enhance and adjust their bodies, to become obsessive about lifting weights, to pose in the mirror, experiencing an often lifelong body complex, we would see a tidal wave of toxic masculinity posts. And maybe that's fair, and yet we don't hear anyone assigned toxic feminine issue, this increasing maternal Princess by proxy issue, or the leeching of young girls self esteem by female celebrity models making huge amounts of money by actively making them feel ugly and less worthy. And we have to be honest about all of this, because it's being perpetuated by females, misguided mums and model, celeb influencers, those who have an obsession with social media and their own physical superficialities. He's a father of a young girl, and he said he's just very worried about the pervasive harm that all of this is doing to daughters and their self esteem. What are your thoughts? So
00:28:48.279 --> 00:29:16.980
first of all, I think that comparison is unfair. I think that the whole muscles and training and weights, that kind of whole stuff that is not You can't compare that to skin care because, because that's that fits into the whole bigger exit part that would be like, encouraging your young girls to be like, skinny and not eating as much, yeah, and anorexic. I think that those two are unfair.
00:29:13.380 --> 00:29:21.200
I do think that the macho, the whole like, encouraging your child to like, well, I don't know. I think
00:29:21.200 --> 00:29:26.660
they, I think they can be paralleled, because I think the skincare fits into a whole.
00:29:23.180 --> 00:29:29.839
It's a much wider superficiality thing about, you know, being obsessive about your appearance.
00:29:30.200 --> 00:29:35.779
I think, I think that they do, they do fall under the same umbrella, but we're not addressing it in the same way.
00:29:36.319 --> 00:29:53.680
And I think, I think, like, what's evident in the way that you've just seen it is that, like, maybe that's why we're not sticking this label of toxic femininity on it, because it's getting under the radar. Because we're like, oh, well, it's just skincare. What's that going to do? No, I agree, but it's harmful. I agree
00:29:53.680 --> 00:29:58.240
that is toxic femininity. I just don't I disagree that you can compare it to a bigger exhale,
00:29:58.599 --> 00:30:07.019
but you could say it well, but. You're putting this term bigger extra on it, but maybe some people would say, Oh, it's just going to the gym. I'm trying. I'm encouraging my son to be healthy,
00:30:07.920 --> 00:30:20.539
no, but that's like saying and to be masculine, yeah, no, but that's the same as saying, oh yeah. I'm encouraging my daughter to be healthy and then making her sure she only eats salads and like, stops, like, starts, limiting her food.
00:30:20.660 --> 00:30:22.099
That's not the same as skin care. I
00:30:22.099 --> 00:30:26.660
know, I know, but, but if you were listening, it's not just, this isn't just about skin care. It's about the whole
00:30:26.660 --> 00:30:31.819
the whole toxic Yeah, I understand that, but you can't compare skin CO and is
00:30:31.819 --> 00:30:49.660
it women's fault? I'm just interested because when I read the book sexism and sensibility, one of the points she made was that, from a very young age, people comment about girls appearances, yeah, and it comes equally from men and men and women. And I think women own a double bind the amount
00:30:49.660 --> 00:30:51.279
of times I've been told to smile,
00:30:51.819 --> 00:31:14.160
yeah, yeah. Well, I mean, I had a relative comment on cellulite, yeah, when I was like, How old was I? I don't know, six, six, yes, yeah. So, I mean, yeah, it's, it is pervasive, and yeah, and girls always Yeah. But I mean, I It doesn't bother me.
00:31:14.220 --> 00:31:25.880
Now, I actually, as soon as I heard that, I instantly said, do not comment on my child's appearance. Yeah, I was actually very deliberate about keeping you away from, you know, comments like that. You know, I babysat
00:31:25.940 --> 00:31:48.460
a girl a couple months ago. I think it was no more than half months, quite a few months ago, and she's 11, and she started playing Roblox, and she came up to me and she showed me her Roblox avatar, and she started complaining that her avatar had cellulite, and this avatar is basically, if it was real, it would be a supermodel.
00:31:45.339 --> 00:31:50.920
And she was like, Oh, look, all the cellulite. And I was like, That avatar has no cellulite.
00:31:50.920 --> 00:31:53.440
What are you talking about? How curious it sounds
00:31:54.099 --> 00:31:58.960
like she doesn't know what Cellulite is. Yeah, exactly.
00:31:59.140 --> 00:32:03.180
So I wonder whether that's the culture that we're raising our kids in.
00:32:03.299 --> 00:32:59.859
I think we do need to ask why we're doing this, and what the driver is. Because, I mean, you made a good point, which is that girls like I feel like from a young age, there is more focus on girls appearances when they're younger. But I do actually think that that it's not that was so, like, we're trying to, you know, people could say, oh, well, we're, you know, it's perform. It's not, not performative, but like, it's for men, you know, like we, you know, we're trying to look at for men, and it's part of the patriarchy and but I actually think it's, it is part of this toxic femininity. Then I think actually, there's a stronger drive from women making other women feel like they need to look good than men. Because I remember at my most insecure, I wasn't thinking about guys at all. I was thinking about how other women were perceiving me interesting, and how my friends are perceiving me, and how I looked compared to other women.
00:32:57.279 --> 00:33:09.240
And it wasn't about looking for male attention or male validation. It was all, how am I going to fix you know, this kind of, how do I be a good woman?
00:33:09.240 --> 00:33:16.440
Yeah, exactly. And I think, I think it is. I think the problem is among women, not men. I think that is the real
00:33:17.099 --> 00:33:28.039
but you're both not really that affected by the you're not desperately trying to fit into some particular mold of femininity. Why?
00:33:28.099 --> 00:34:06.720
But I've never really cared about my looks. Like, my looks have kind of just been off the radar for me, because I've never really, like, been like, oh, I don't know for me, like, obviously I'm insecure about a lot of things. And, like, I'm not saying that people who are insecure, about their looks are less good or anything. I'm just saying that I don't know why that is. And I remember, I remember the girls at my old school like weighing themselves and, oh my God, those are really toxic face and wearing, like, makeup, but that like wearing makeup at a young age, that's more about fun and like expressing yourself, and like making yourself look nice, and that kind of stuff, that stuff was, like, never really on my radar. And I don't know interesting, it still really isn't like, yeah.
00:34:06.720 --> 00:34:15.480
I mean, that's the thing. Like, a lot of what we do is alien to men. And I don't think they actually care whether you use my cell or water.
00:34:17.820 --> 00:34:19.800
They find a whole this whole
00:34:19.798 --> 00:34:30.259
thing is being peddled to us by by women. Yeah, online, it's like, Oh, these are what this this is what the celebs are using. I want to be like them. I want to look like them. So I'm going to do that. Don't
00:34:30.259 --> 00:34:53.318
you think that we human beings are visual creatures. We do notice what whatever we wear, and we do send signals to other people about fitting into a tribe and being a certain thing. And I think if we have teenagers trying to learn how to be a man, how to be a woman in a society, they're going to be looking for clues.
00:34:49.539 --> 00:35:10.798
And a huge amount of the messaging now is not particularly healthy. I mean, all the only fans ridiculous messaging. It is very, very concerning to me, both girls and boys. To both girls and boys, it's not just, you know, we have had a lot of conversations about toxic masculinity, but I think it's true of girls too.
00:35:10.980 --> 00:35:26.840
I think the models are actually more dangerous than only fans, because only fans, it's like, you're not, you know that they've got plastic surgery. Like, it's just a given, I don't know. Like, yeah, they move. They all do because they wouldn't look like that.
00:35:24.320 --> 00:35:26.840
That's not a normal way to look.
00:35:28.159 --> 00:36:03.599
And so I know one only fans model who's quite open about her plastic surgery and who's quite open about her journey and how, like, she's like, Okay, you shouldn't go into this unless you're 100% sure don't go into this job at 18. You know, this isn't something, it's not actually a good job. It will affect your life in ways that and nothing else will. I think that it's the model modeling industry which is dangerous, because people look at that and that is kind of it goes back to the whole hero in cheek thing, that it's like, skinny having no, like, no Fauci anywhere is like the kind of fashion at the moment. It's always been about.
00:36:01.019 --> 00:36:36.079
It's been the fashion for a very long time. Yeah, well, it's the fact is, the fashion, and there has been fridges, and I think that's a lot more dangerous for the young girls, because the the of the of industry that's going to encourage girls to anything that's going to eat, right? If that's going to encourage girls to do anything, it's going to be to work out and to eat, eat more, like, healthily and more protein, because most of them are really strong and have like, big bones because, like muscles there, that kind of stuff, whereas with the modeling industry, that kind of thing is just gonna encourage girls not to eat anything. But
00:36:36.079 --> 00:36:54.278
even, you know, even kind of fitness influences, I find there are very few that I actually like following. Well, no, no, it's not because of that, but it's just because the lifestyle is just so unrealistic and unattainable, and it's like, what what we aspiring to? What is the point of this? Yeah, you know.
00:36:54.400 --> 00:37:16.500
So my theory is that what we need to be doing is we need to be much more present in terms of providing role models for our kids, whether they're boys or girls, and not just us parents, we need other people in their lives. It can't just be coming from us. We need to gather people around us who we think are really great role models and get our kids spending time with
00:37:16.500 --> 00:37:38.599
the problem is, if you okay, you're looking for a role model who's like a normal size that's really hard to find, because the people on social media who are active, they're either active because they're really thin or like that, they fit into the beauty standard, and they're really popular because of that, or the and it's the same half size, no, oh, yeah. Or then, like, plus size, like body positivity influences, which isn't healthy either.
00:37:38.719 --> 00:37:51.938
Yeah, I meant in real life. I mean, actually, I think one of the most powerful things we parents can do is to try and find other adults in our community who reflects much more positive, wholesome I
00:37:52.420 --> 00:38:01.079
must say, you know, on this toxic femininity, I have actually seen a massive rise.
00:37:56.079 --> 00:38:11.639
It's mainly in threads, but or just on social media in general as well, of men bashing, yeah, Miss Andrew Exactly. Wow, wow.
00:38:05.760 --> 00:38:34.639
And, and some of the things that I've seen, I'm like, if we flip this on the head, yeah, and men were saying this about women, yes, like, up in our arms. But that, you know, there are women saying, and I'm not trying to generalize, but I've seen things being like, our men just aren't that funny. Like, you know, men try to do all of these things and but, you know, we just do so much better. We know, what are they here for anyway? And it's just like, I know
00:38:34.759 --> 00:38:39.679
you, because what we're actually doing is you're setting up an oppositional situation, exactly.
00:38:39.679 --> 00:38:44.498
And that's not we, we all, we all a rising tide, raises all boats.
00:38:44.739 --> 00:38:51.099
But yeah, so I think that is just for parents out there. That's something to be aware of very well. That's kind of circulating,
00:38:52.360 --> 00:38:56.619
because I've seen it a lot recently, Yeah, same, and I don't think it's good at all.
00:38:56.619 --> 00:39:03.000
It's not healthy, no, right? Well, I think we've covered pretty much everything I wanted to cover.
00:39:03.059 --> 00:39:13.739
Just a quick one. If you had to do a 20 minute talk with zero preparation, what would it be on something you know about
00:39:18.900 --> 00:39:19.980
TV shows?
00:39:20.039 --> 00:39:26.420
TV shows, yeah, okay. You mean, er or something like that. What's it called?
00:39:24.079 --> 00:39:26.420
Grey's Anatomy? Well, no,
00:39:26.599 --> 00:39:33.139
like, yeah, Grey's Anatomy, but TV shows, I think I would lose steam with that. I mean, just in general, I could talk about TV shows, maybe
00:39:41.059 --> 00:39:41.559
Cicero,
00:39:42.940 --> 00:39:47.619
something like that. You did a presentation the other night on it very interesting. I mean,
00:39:47.619 --> 00:39:53.619
no, I take my back, actually, I can do, I can talk about Henry the Eighth for months, like joking, brilliant.
00:39:54.099 --> 00:39:55.958
Okay, great.
00:39:54.099 --> 00:39:59.318
Thank you so much for joining us. Phoebe and Amelia. I have you found this enjoyable?
00:39:59.378 --> 00:40:28.219
Interesting? You learned anything, please pass it on to at least one other person. Just click that now. Go follow the socials. Go follow the social says, I'm on Instagram, I'm on, oh, I'm on threads. But I didn't see some of that stuff. I just talk about parenting. It's toxic. LinkedIn. No. Like that stuff. I don't, well, I think actually just stays like, really bad. And I'm not really on tick tock anyway, I'm on the socials.
00:40:28.278 --> 00:40:34.878
Please email me with any questions, any feedback. It's teenagers. Untangled at Gmail, dot. And if you like this,
00:40:34.878 --> 00:40:36.498
don't be scared to make a review.
00:40:37.219 --> 00:40:39.498
Reviews are really, really wonderful.
00:40:40.000 --> 00:40:43.539
I know about me, please. Thank you.
00:40:48.639 --> 00:40:50.619
Yeah, five stars are always very welcome.
00:40:50.978 --> 00:40:53.679
And I think that's it. Have a great week. I wasn't
00:40:53.679 --> 00:40:55.119
gonna have to turn to chat. GPT,
00:40:57.340 --> 00:41:00.539
that's it from us. Have a great week. Big hug for me. Bye, bye, you.
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