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Danielle, thank you so much for joining us. Your company is called memory strategy. So presumably is all about strategies. Can you tell us why we should care about memory?
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Sure.
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So memory is kind of seen a lot of times as a skill, but it's like, Oh, why do I need that I've got my cell phone, I've got Google. But in order for us to perform those higher level skills, so critical thinking, problem solving, anything like that, we have to have a strong foundation. And that is going to be our memory. So in order to problem solve, we have to kind of go into our memory bank and see what tools we have available, so that we can actually offer up solutions that aren't maybe as simple or easy to find. So memory is kind of that foundational skill that all these other skills are built on.
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I love that because very often, I'm told, Well, I've got Google and why do I need any of this? It's kind of we're losing this art, aren't we? Yes. So So in terms of strategies, a lot of people focus on, you know, getting your kids through school, getting them through exams? So let's start with that particular area.
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What it what are the key things that you would say should be in a student's toolbox or pupils toolbox? When they're a teenager? And they're going into that secondary? We call it a secondary school? So sort of 13 upwards? Are there things that parents can be doing that can really help support their teens?
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Yes, that's a loaded question.
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Because there's like a million different ways that we can look at that question. So if we're just speaking really, really simply, you know, why do teens struggle in school? You know, why would their grades go down?
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Why is learning harder for some kids more than others, there could be a lot of different things. And it's going to be different for every student, you're already going through your teenage years, which is a big burden, right? You've got hormones, you've got friends, you've got trying to figure out your family, and how to manage stress and who you are in life.
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So there's all of that on top of, you know, just learning and stuff. So, in order to make the learning aspect as easy as possible, the biggest piece of advice that I can give is, how can we make whatever they're learning as interesting as possible. And that can be hard, because there's going to be teachers that are boring, there's going to be textbooks that are boring, there's going to be subjects that are just plain difficult. And so one of the things, you know, even though my company is called memory strategies, it's so it's grown into so much more than that, which is, how do I help students learn how to student?
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How do I teach them how to study? How do I teach them how to learn? How do I help them, you know, become independent, active learners so that they can face anything that they come into contact with? So the biggest thing is, how can we make something that is boring or difficult, interesting and exciting. And a lot of times, unfortunately, you know, school, the teachers aren't always going to be able to reach every single student, the textbooks are there, that, you know, you can't really change them. So how do we help the student learn how to study in ways that make it exciting for them and relatable for them? So that's a big part of what I do.
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Okay, so. So if they're trying to actually enhance their memory, for example, what would be because you're so you're talking about making it interesting. So presumably, there are techniques that you would use to help them memorize things which are related to making it interesting. Is that what you're saying?
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Yes.
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So let me give you a really easy example. So I, I just worked with a girl last week, she's 15.
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She's a really high performer, but she has autism. And so she's starting to have problems with her memory. And one of the things that we looked at, she had to memorize polyatomic ions, and it was this whole chart. And so you look at you know, like h2 P, you know, like, you have all these letters that are just like, they don't mean anything to you like that. She's not going to use this in her daily life right now. So how do you memorize that? Because it's boring, but it's keeping you from going to the next grade level and to graduate, right. So one of the things that we did, is one of the things is, for her in particular, we looked for patterns. So we took out our highlighter, and we found things that were similar and we started to make those connections. Then we started using things like pictures and visuals and things that were important to her in order to remember those things.
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So for her in particular, she really enjoys patterns and finding those patterns. So that worked for her, that's not gonna work for every other student.
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What works for a lot of other students is creating some really weird crazy pictures. So if you had to remember a line of you know, polyatomic letters and numbers, how do we turn that information into something interesting so we can turn you know, something that it sounds really boring into something that they already have logged into their memory so they can use things like fate, their favorite movies, their favorite hobbies, you know, whatever comes to their mind is is already there and rooted so we can connect that new information to the old information that's already rooted in the brain.
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So it's all about connecting everything with what you have before because one thing I think's really interesting is that I was always one of those people who found it really, really easy to remember every single lyric of every song that was in the charts when I was a teenager. And yet, I found it impossible to remember a phone number or, or anything like that. So if I was going to try and learn a phone number, given the way that my brain works, would, are you saying that I should link it to something like music? Because clearly I like music? Yeah. And how would you do that?
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Right.
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So if we think about memorizing a song versus memorizing a number, the song was way more fun and interesting and attached to things that you actually care about a number is so dry and boring. So if you wanted to memorize a number, what I would suggest is making some associations or use it just putting it to music. So creating like a little tune in your head could be really useful. One of the things that I focus on, like when students have to memorize like math formulas, is turning each of those little things into pictures. So if your number starts with, you know, 660, so six sounds a lot like sticks to me. So I'm going to imagine two sticks crossing each other like a pirates map x, right? And then zero, I'm going to think of maybe a black hole or sinking sand and so that x starts to disappear into the sand. So now I've got this really weird pirate picture in my head to help me remember
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to
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think someone's phone number is now interesting and fun, because it's about pirates and maps and treasure hunting, instead of 660. If that makes sense.
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Right? Right.
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And when it comes to the differences between people, I think it really matters that we address that because my husband remembers these numbers really, really quickly. And I have a daughter who's very good at numbers and very good at memorizing things to do with language. And it's very easy to look at her when you're the other daughter saying, Yeah, but it's just she just good at it.
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It's not fair, because my other daughter finds that really, really hard. What is this something we genuinely, because you're saying, you're saying we can learn it by being creative?
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But Can everybody polish up their memory? Surely some people are just much better.
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So yeah, that's a interesting question to tackle. Because, you know, aside from, you know, a medical diagnosis with like, maybe, you know, brain injury or something, everyone can improve their memory, yes, there are some people that maybe are naturally a little more gifted in that area, and they don't have to work as hard. But the way that I like to explain it is think about people who go to the gym. And, you know, everyone has muscles, right? And so some people, it might be really easy for them to go to the gym and build muscles, they can do it really easily. But other people, they might have to work a lot harder. So that's very similar, right? It's not that you have a bad memory, it's that you have an untrained muscle. And so if you just put in a little bit of effort, and not even effort is that people don't know that you can improve your memory. A lot of people just accept that I either have a good memory or a bad memory, and they don't even realize a something that they can improve. So once people realize, oh, it's something I can work on, then you have a lot more potential to remember whatever you want. And in fact, there are. So the reason I even started this business, I was a teacher for 10 years. And I went to Taiwan. And I taught English as a second language, I came back to the states and I was teaching at a really difficult private school where if they if the students didn't remember enough, they would fail out of the program. So it was very high stakes for them. Wow. And so I thought, you know, how can I help these students? So I ended up coming across, basically, the memory palace, there was a show called child genius where they had a memory round. There's also I don't know if you've seen the Sherlock Holmes, the BBC series
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with I haven't, but it's supposed to be really good. Yeah, I
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totally recommend it. I really love it.
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But it's with Benedict Cumberbatch. And there's a scene in that series where he goes to his memory palace, and it's very overdramatize, where he's like imagining all these things popping up in his head. And there's some similarities to it.
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But I started researching that, and that's actually used in the Guinness Book of World Records and memory championships, this memory palace and this way of, you know, associating things that are interesting to you and making connections and using visualization and using, you know, places around your home to store memories, which is a whole other thing. But I basically I learned the methods. I taught it to my students, their students, their test scores increased by 300%. And this is within weeks, and I thought, Okay, I'm onto something so clearly, you know, it's effective. So how can I bring this to more people and not only not just the memory aspect, but learning as a whole and student ting as a whole.
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I forgot. So just It's fascinating. And it's for people who aren't familiar with a memory palace a lot of us are, but just in case you're not, or you'd like a refresher on how it works, can you explain to us how you would use that?
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Yes.
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So our brains are really, really good at remembering spatial locations and spatial relationships. For example, if I say close your eyes and think about your bathroom, you don't have to struggle about where's my toilet, is it on the ceiling, is it on the right arm is on the left side, like, it's very clear that the toilet is where it is, right? And so you have all that like, think about your house, you know, where everything is in your house, your coffee table, your TV, your sinks, you know, those are routed. So that's a perfect opportunity for you to place information and stick it in a place where you can go and find it again, a lot of times again, people will just assume that they either remember it, or they don't, they don't practice actually storing it in their brain. And so it's getting
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it back from like, where is it? Right, exactly?
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Where is it? Yes. Put all the math on the toilet. Yeah, exactly. So it's a, it's a very interactive way to take a piece of information, create a really interesting visual and place it somewhere. So where you can go and find it again.
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I love that.
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That's fascinating. So what we're trying to say is we're saying, first of all, that we need memory, because it makes you able to perform and make connections on a day to day basis, you know, when you're away from Google. And secondly, that we can actually do this, and we can make a difference. So one of my things that I think is really important is that I have a daughter, who is dyslexic who's very, very bright. But she struggles with executive function. Now that's the kind of working memory part of your, your brain, which makes it really tricky for her. Are there things that you would suggest that would really help her?
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Yes, so with working memory in particular, there's all kinds of different memory, you might have heard short term memory, long term memory, working memory.
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Memory, there's so many types, right? So, you know, working memory, in a nutshell, is the ability to hold on information long enough for you to be able to use it. So it's not, it's kind of a mix between short term and long term memory, it's holding information so that you can use them as tools to do whatever it is you need to do.
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So for working memory, there's a lot of little exercises that you can do. So if you think about, there's actually a website that it puts out a string of letters.
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So let's say you need to memorize three letters in a row.
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So you look at those, you memorize those, and then you look away and you test yourself.
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Can I remember those three letters? Most people can remember three letters in a row.
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And then you add another letter for random letters. Okay, can I remember those four random letters, and then you go five, and six. And so again, it's kind of like, you know, expecting someone who's new to the gym lifting a 50 pound weight, instead of starting along five pounds. So it's not, oh, my gosh, I'm a failure because I can't lift 50 pounds, or I can't memorize an entire language, you've got to break it down. And it's totally normal. And it's totally acceptable to, you know, go slower and go in little pieces, because that's, that's normal. That's what's unfortunate is that people feel like I suck if I can't do this amazing task. And that's not how we have to look at it. It's about training, little increments.
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I was looking at a an account by a lady who is very dyslexic. And she was saying one of the things she tends to use is the kinesthetic, like the movement when she's trying to remember things. Do you have any techniques or ways in which you incorporate that?
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Well, the first Yes, the first thing that comes to mind is it's very similar to the memory palace, but it's using your body. So let's say you needed to memorize you know, either someone's phone number or the first 10 presidents or polyatomic ions, you can actually place them on your body. So if you think about going from your head, your shoulder, shoulder and hand belly button, Nene foot foot, right, so then you're putting them in a place where you can find them. And you're still creating those fun visuals or things that you know, matter to you. And then you're able to use your body in that way. So it's a little more active. It's interesting because depending on what it is you're trying to learn or the topic or what you're trying to memorize. Some things might be easier done on paper. Some of it might be easier done, like you said, kinesthetically. So it just kind of depends on on what it is.
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Yes, my husband used to fly aerobatics and they'd all do this little dance before they actually went up and flew it as a way of you know, trying To pretend that they were going through it so that they could memorize it. Because they wouldn't have it in the cockpit with them, which was hilarious to watch. One of the other things that my daughters have been confronted with, particularly things like history where you've got, it's not just that there's a lot of names and dates, it's actually that some of them for example, when they were, they've been studying Chinese history, which is really, really hard, because the names are not familiar names. So it's one thing when it's a you know, and I remember when I was in Israel, I would hear words in Hebrew, and they just there was just nothing for me to hang them on. Because they sounded like nothing I knew. Are there things that we can do to help ourselves with that?
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Yeah, exactly. So that's such a good question. And people ask me about that a lot about memorizing names, and especially names that are very foreign to them. Because again, there it seems like there's no association. So that's where we get to be really fun and creative. So for example, the name Cho. So CH, oh, you know, that doesn't mean anything to me. But I can think of like Choo, choo, choo, choo, train sounds. So that's something that I can think of in my head to help remind me of that person's name. So if I'm trying to memorize you know, Joe was a leader, I can imagine that person coming in on a to to train into the country and doing whatever it is that they do. So again, chill what else? Chill.
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If I think of the word like chop, ch, O P, that's really close. I'm I think of like chopsticks or chopping something in half. Show what else chosen, I might think of, you know, like an angel choosing you to do something, there's so many ways that we can connect it. And so it's just kind of challenging you how creative can you be, so there's always going to be a connection, somehow.
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So it's all about it's about actually practicing this because I, I sort of thought, Oh, I'll be good at this, and I go to a dinner party. And then I get into a mild panic, because I think, actually, I haven't been practicing it. And now, I can't remember the names, you know, when you've got eight new new faces you've got to deal with,
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that's really good, you know, a dinner party or a networking event and you're faced with, you know, 1020 3040, new faces, new people, there's a ton of things that you know, adults can do, or teenagers can do in that situation. One is do as much pre research as you can. So you might be able to find people's names on a list beforehand. That way, you feel a little more confident and prepared. That way, you're not focusing so much on their name, but then you can be more present in the moment to have that conversation to is paying attention when they actually say their name. So often are we have something called the reticular activating system, which is constantly filtering out, is this information worth remembering or not? And so your brain is really quick to throw away names I think
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my brain is getting no, that's not worth it.
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Yeah, exactly. So we have to retrain our reticular activating system to pay attention in those moments. important, important, important. So when that person says their name, you know, something really simple as Hi, Richard, nice to meet ya. Hi, Marilyn. It's great to see you here. So repeating that name. So then also like, going in intentionally to that dinner party or that networking event, I am going to remember 10 names today. Now you have an intention, as opposed to just being a passive participant, you are active in that conversation.
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Then afterwards, go to your cell phone, restaurant, you go to your table, cell phone, boo, boo, boom, type those names, because that's your that's your short term memory. It's going to go out quick. So you have a very short window of writing it down.
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Don't wait until tomorrow. Don't wait until next week, do it ASAP. So another thing that you asked us, you know, what's something that's really practical for teens to do? In school? I'll give you one that's really easy, but is very counterintuitive. As soon as a student finishes their school day or a class, have your student do something called active recall. Active recall, is simply putting away the notes putting away the lecture and thinking what did I learn today?
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Because what that does is that actually decreases something called the forgetting curve.
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Again, a very short window of opportunity, where we can remember things before our RAS throws it out, like trash is what did I learn today? And so that really simple five minute review. What did we do in history class, what did we do in science class is going to help retain that information longer over time.
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I love that my daughter read a book, which I mentioned in my revision episode, which is about how to how to study and they use the technique they were using was called blurting that which is the same thing they always start every revision session with a blurt like, what do I know about this topic? Because that will tell you how much you've forgotten, but actually doing it straight after that lesson or at the end of the day when they're really tired and they don't want to do it. But if they can get into that habit, and they know that that will make a massive difference to how much extra work they're going to have to do is a really worthwhile thing to understand.
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And like I said it's feel so counterintuitive because your student is thinking I was just in Last four or five hours, like why do I have to do this? Like, of course, I know what happened because I was there, you're gonna have to fight that urge and just do it anyway. And they will find that they will retain that information so much longer.
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Yes. And the forgetting curve is, we know have quite root quite definite ideas about how long it will be before you forget information.
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Can you just remind us how that works?
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Yes, and there's a lot of different research on this. But the we can all agree we forget a lot of things very quickly, right. And so the idea is they found you know, within 20 minutes, we forget, you know, almost half of the information that's been given to us, because if you think about it, are, again, we're consuming so much information on a second by second basis, visually, through our nose, that with our tastes with our ears, our senses, all of our five senses are constantly getting so much information. And so our brain has to throw out the things it doesn't think it's important.
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And so basically, we forget a lot of information at first, and it and it kind of slows out over time. And so I think they said, What was it after a week, we can only remember about 25%, of whatever we learned. So it goes quick. So you think about a student every day getting new information, they've got to retain that by doing that review, cramming is the worst thing you can do. That's waiting until the end when you only have 25% left in there anyway. So do it at the beginning when it feels counterintuitive.
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Yeah, amazing.
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Amazing. I watched a fascinating program, which had Chris Hemsworth. Do you know who Chris Hemsworth Yeah. Thor actor, and easy on the eye. And he, it was really touching, because it's all it's called limitless. And it's on Disney. I don't know if anybody's watched it. But it's actually brilliant. And he's been given a diagnosis that he has, I think two bits of DNA, which mean that he's much more likely to end up suffering from dementia than somebody who is the average in the population, which is really a scary bit of information to get. And so he's been working with different specialists talking to him about how he can help himself. And one of them was a memory, I think she was a memory specialist. And one of the things she talked about was going out into it reading a map beforehand, and then being put in the wild, and trying to find your way without the map. So you've actually got to try and memorize what's on that map. And she was talking about it being stored somewhere, I forget where she talked about it being stored in your brain, I think it's the cerebellum and like, it's, and it's a way of increasing that, that the power of it to recall information.
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And, you know, other ways that we can, you know, I'm not going to go and dump my kids in the middle of the wild and say, Hey, kids. I think there's sometimes scared of that. But are there other other things that we can do that kind of give us that?
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That? Because I don't know about that? That area of memory? I know. And it's new to me, but is that something you've looked at?
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So there again, there's so many different ways I could dissect just that concept of reading a map and then going to that place and trying to from memory, you know, get out. It's so similar to the memory palace, because a map, right, you're looking at a visual representation of a place. And so you know, one of the other things I talk a lot about and teach students about is mind mapping, which is different than the memory palace, it's, you know, putting on paper notes in a way instead of like, here's, you know, bullet point bullet point bullet point, it's much more abstract.
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And you put the main idea in the center and the details on the outside and you don't use a lot of words, you use a lot more pictures, and you use a lot more color. And you use a lot more, you know, abstract, even shapes, instead of straight lines because our memory, you know, we pick up on unique, our minds remember the extraordinary, not the ordinary, I'll say it again, our minds remember the extraordinary, not the ordinary, boring things, our brain pops it away. If it's interesting, if it's scary, if it's weird, if it's bizarre, our brains remember it. And so anytime that you can change your notes into a mind map, your brain when we look at that piece of paper is now way more interested in picking up all those interesting colors and details and pictures, then boring text. So you know your daughter with dyslexia would do so much better with images turning her information into pictures. So how do you turn you know Cho into a picture? If you're trying to remember someone's name from history, turn that person into a choo choo train now of teacher trainers is way more easy to remember than a new name like
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Cha love it.
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Yes. Love that. Absolutely. And on that note, I mean, a lot of kids, when it comes to revising, are they're basically making notes and then they're highlighting things and they're using flashcards. Is that the most efficient way of doing this?
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Typically, no. A lot of people assume that underlining highlighting a note cards are kind of it. Like, that's how you study who came up with that idea. You know, it's kind of like, you know, who taught you that, you know, maybe, maybe your teachers, maybe your parents. But that doesn't work for everyone, it could work for some people. But I would say for the majority of people, it's not a very engaging way. So a more engaging way is digging with digging into the notes, playing with it, reorganizing it in your mind in a way that's fascinating to you.
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And again, that's what that mind map is, is you're taking this text that someone else gave to you, whether it's, you know, lecture notes, or you know, a page out of a textbook or a chart, and you're turning that now into a mind map, a world of fantasy, land of things that are interesting to you. And you get to make all those fun connections. And it's that idea of playing with it. And that process of changing it, that is helping you learn, you're now looking at the details, you're changing that information in your mind into something that your brain likes and enjoys looking at and playing with.
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And I guess you need the time to do that.
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Because we've always had, we've all had those moments where you're coming up to the your finals, or your your exams, and you think I haven't got time to do all that creative stuff, I just need to learn it. So it's much better to be doing that, that creative stuff earlier. And it's interesting, because I, when my daughter was looking at her history topics, I actually said, God, gosh, the way that I would do this is I would look at the two sides and roleplay.
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Like, why did that person feel that they had to do this? Why did this leader lead people in that direction and just actively trying to get into their heads and be strategic about it can like you said, I suppose that's because that's much more creative, and you feel much more engaged because of that. Yeah.
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And it to your
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team like this. Either. They can study with a highlighter and a notebook and some note cards, or they could write a rap song about their history lesson or create or create, you know, a visual representation. which one sounds more interesting and fun.
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I would say this, because this time, like, everyone has read something, and thought, what did I just read, or this is so boring, I want to go to sleep.
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So we can read and be smart all day long. But if we're not connecting with it, if we're not taking it and digesting it and, and being able to talk about it, and have an hour long conversation about or something like it's not it's not doing anything, right? It's not affecting our life. So we can be really passive and still look quite academic. But none of it's like sinking in. And if it's affecting us, so the more active we can be with it, the better.
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And you know, go ahead.
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No, no, ultimately, we're trying to actually create stuff that's in our brains that then helps us into high level thinking. So if we're just trying to kind of memorize notes, because we want to pass exams, it's not really the answer, presumably,
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right.
00:27:50.909 --> 00:28:11.098
And here's the other thing that I think a lot about is, you know, your student is trying to graduate. And there are a lot of tests in their way. And some of those tests are going to be relevant to their life in their job. And some of them aren't.
00:28:06.058 --> 00:28:46.709
And so I am a big believer in Yes, the test is, is there to teach you, but they're going to do a lot more learning a lot more engaging, learning a lot more meaningful learning once they're actually going to do that thing that they're gonna go do. You think about and I see this all the time with professional exams as well, because I help adults get certified and licensed in whatever field they're going into. So for example, like, I helped a guy become a mortgage loan officer, and he had to pass the test, but he had all these learning disabilities. And so here, he has presented this information that he's never had to use before, that he's never worked with a client on. And it's all hypothetical to him.
00:28:44.098 --> 00:29:02.189
And so there's not a lot of meaning there. So yes, he needs to pass the exam. But then once he actually starts working with clients, he's going to be able to memorize that information. So much easier to work with that information so much easier, because now it impacts his life in a different way than pretest.
00:28:58.199 --> 00:29:09.749
And so I'm a big believer in, you know, there are going to be times where you do have to just get through the test so that you can start truly living whatever it is that you were learning.
00:29:10.559 --> 00:29:15.240
Brilliant. I love that. On that note, Danielle, thank you so much for joining us. It's so interesting.
00:29:16.170 --> 00:29:29.220
I'm sure most parents worry about memory, whether it's their own memory and hopefully we've picked up some really good tips here. Where can people find you?
00:29:29.940 --> 00:29:34.950
So the website it's memory strategy.com And you'll find all the information there.
00:29:35.549 --> 00:29:38.400
Yeah, brilliant. Thank you so much for joining us. Lovely to speak to
