What Makes a Good Parent? A Bonus Episode in Which I Ask My Own Teenager

Rachel Richards: 0:03

hello and welcome to Teenagers Untangled, the audio hug for fearless parents of teens and tweens. I'm Rachel Richards, former BBC correspondent and CNBC Europe world news anchor, mother of two teenagers and two bonus daughters. Now, I think we've all spent time wondering what makes a good parent, and so have the experts, but it's one thing reading and listening to experts about it, getting it right on a day to day basis can feel just really tricky. My youngest, Amelia, and I were chatting in the car the other day when she said something that made me stop, and I thought, you know what, it would be really good to unpack her thoughts on the podcast, since our last conversation was so well received. So, Amelia, thank you so much for joining us.

Amelia: 0:45

Hi, thank you for having me.

Rachel Richards: 0:46

My pleasure. Now, do you remember what you said?

Amelia: 0:50

I have no idea.

Rachel Richards: 0:52

You said I hate all this gentle parenting.

Amelia: 0:55

Oh yeah,

Rachel Richards: 0:56

what do you mean?

Amelia: 0:58

I feel like the idea of gentle parenting is really nice idea, but kids need structure, and they need, they need help with stuff, and gender parenting.. I just.. I can't see it giving that

Rachel Richards: 1:09

interesting.. so it's such an interesting thing, and I read the reason I picked you up on that was because the gentle parenting movement, I think, has been misconstrued, and part of that is because of the name Gentle Parenting, so it sounds like something that I don't think they intend, so when you talk, whenever I talk to someone about something and they talk about Gentle Parenting, I always stop them and say, "So, what do you mean by that? And the people who've read a lot about it mean high expectations and high levels of support is sort of what they call authoritative parenting, but I think a lot of people don't understand it that way, they think of it as being really permissive,

Amelia: 1:49

yeah,

Rachel Richards: 1:50

yeah, so interestingly, when I've researched it, there's authoritarian parenting, which is really just high expectations with no support, and then permissive parenting, where there's high support, no expectations, and then there's the thing in the middle.

Amelia: 2:04

Yeah, I think that it's really hard to find a middle ground, but I think it can be done

Rachel Richards: 2:08

so hard, so hard. And I think on a day-to-day basis, I'm pretty sure I don't balance it perfectly.

Amelia: 2:15

Oh, yeah, I mean, I really don't think many people like it's extremely hard. This is what I'm saying. I don't think you know nobody's gonna get it right 100% of the time. It's very hard.

Rachel Richards: 2:26

Yeah, yeah. So, if you were to say you were, you were saying that you don't like this kind of gentle thing, and that there needs to be expectations, and elaborate a bit more. I mean, because you've got a lot of friends who you talk to about the way that they're parented, you know, you don't have to name names, but are there specific things that you think are particular issues that you see? You can include me,

Amelia: 2:52

just for the reference, I'm not talking about one of my friends here, she's not my friend, but she has parents who have, like, she and her parents don't get on very well, and I think that her parents then try and make her like them by giving her things and by letting her do what she wants, and basically gentle parenting her, and like in the way that most people understand it, and she's just end up like a spoiled brat again. This is not one of my friends

Rachel Richards: 3:20

I'm talking

Amelia: 3:21

about right now, but yeah, so I think that it can get, and also she had, like, her parents don't have any expectations for her, because I think they think if they put pressure on her, she's just not gonna like them, but she already doesn't. I think it's really an interesting observation that you've made, and I've spoken to your older sisters about this particular phenomenon, and I think it's so hard for parents when their kids go from adoring them to pushing back,

Rachel Richards: 3:48

and they can easily switch into doing what they, whatever it takes to get their child to listen to them and to be close to them again.

Amelia: 3:55

Yeah,

Rachel Richards: 3:56

it's completely understandable. I think having spoken to your older sisters, they say that the friends that they've seen who've had that sort of relationship with their parents, where the parents basically give them whatever they want, has really ended up with adults who are very unhappy, and I can think of one particular person who ended up with an alcohol habit, alcoholism, and really struggled to actually work because he just didn't think the world was going to turn out the way it did and didn't understand the expectations that were set for him in the workplace, so it is here what you're saying, and I think it ends up being quite tricky,

Amelia: 4:34

and I think that there's like, I think you should ask yourself, what do you want to get out of parenting if you want your children to be very successful in their life, but without having, but you don't want to have a relationship with them, like you don't want to be close. I don't think this is many parents, but then I think this doesn't apply to you, but I think a lot of people get it wrong on the other end of the spectrum as well, and. They have their children living in fear of them.

Rachel Richards: 5:02

Yeah, yes.

Amelia: 5:03

So I think that a lot of the time it's either their children walk all over them or their children live in fear of them, and that's a massive issue, because you're never going to have a relationship either way, because if your children are walking all over and they don't respect you, then I know that that sounds very like old fashioned, but like you, just you can't have a good healthy relationship with somebody who doesn't respect you as a person in the same way that if you don't respect your child, your child, that you're not going to have a good relationship with them, you're going to, you're not going to be treating them well.

Rachel Richards: 5:34

I think that's absolutely true. And why do you think it ends up like that, where perhaps the parents are very demanding of their kids.

Amelia: 5:45

Well, when they end up demanding, I think that I think that comes from a place of love for most people. For a lot of people, it doesn't, but I think for most people it comes from a place of love, and it comes from a place of your child, of you wanting your child to do the best that they can in life, so you have really, really high expectations and really, really high pressure on them, and that just ends up badly. That will never end up well, because what will either happen is they'll be terrified of you, and that will be forcing them to do well, and forcing them to, like, having forcing them to do tons and tons of work, and they would.. that's not life, that's not a fun life. Like, imagine if you were in that situation, and you were just, you know, terrified of your parents, which I think a lot of people in your generation were, to be honest. But I'm thinking, oh yeah, if I get a C on this test, I'm gonna, like, my parents are gonna be so angry at me, that kind of thing. Yeah, I mean, yeah. So, as I was saying, that's not really life, and I think that, that, that comes from the parents wanting their kids to do well, but you know, I feel like parents are there to lay the foundations to the rest of the child's life, and if you have a child who's scared of you, once they have the opportunity to not talk to you, they're going to take it, because why would you want to live in fear of somebody you know? Why would you want to be talking to someone who terrifies you? So, you know, do you want to actually know them in the life which you've laid the foundations down for? Well, it's a good point

Rachel Richards: 7:15

you're making, and I think that the world that we're living in now has changed, where it used to be that we'd live cheek by jowl, and you would stay in communities, and you would sort of have to be forced to continue a relationship with your parent, beyond, you know, because you'd be shamed for leaving your parents and your family, were very important. I think the world we're living in now has switched, and it's much easier for people to shut off their parents, which I think is changing that dynamic, and quite, quite tragically, in a way, because I do think parents maybe don't see it coming, and they are doing what they consider to be the best that they can do. So, what would you say would make a kid feel like there are high expectations, but that those high expectations are not too demanding of them, and that they can have a good relationship with their parents.

Amelia: 8:06

Well, I think that's like there's a sweet spot here, which is high expectations, low pressure.

Rachel Richards: 8:13

How do you do?

Amelia: 8:13

Which sounds really weird. Sounds really weird. If your child has, if your child wants to do well, they'll put pressure on themselves, so they don't need extra stuff from you, and everybody wants to do well. Like, name one person who just sits there, and they're like,"Oh, I don't want to be successful. But

Rachel Richards: 8:27

there were parents who - their parents who say that their kids seem to completely lack motivation. They can't seem to get them interested in anything.

Amelia: 8:35

I think we're going to be talking about this later, but there is something else going on, and you need to be instead of trying to make them get motivated for their work, I mean, we did a whole episode on motivation, but I think you should also be trying to figure out what's going on behind the scenes,

Rachel Richards: 8:51

and when you say that, so what might be happening in your

Amelia: 8:56

opinion? Well, I mean, if your child just doesn't want to do anything, then they're probably depressed, like I'm going to be so honest. There's, and there's probably just a lot of stuff going on in their head. I mean, you should be trying to figure out, like, work on building up your relationship with them instead of trying to force them to do work and work on figuring out what else is going on, you know? Maybe, as I said in the last episode that we did together, maybe they should do what I didn't take a year out and try to just rejuvenate, recuperate, not rejuvenate. Where you can build your relationship with them and make sure that you guys are solid and make sure that they're solid. And then go back into education, and then go, and then they will be way more motivated to do stuff. Genuinely, if you have somebody who's sitting there and is like, I don't want to be successful in the future, there are so many other things going on because they're probably not thinking about having a future if they're saying that they don't want to be successful in the future, because who do you know who sits there and goes, I don't want to be successful in the future, or you know, plays that out, yeah, they can't see a future, they can't see something that, yeah, and what are your. Best tips for parents to actually engage with their kids, if their kids are like that. I think first of all, you need to take your emotions out of it, and you need to detach from what they're going through, because if you know if they open up to you about something, and you then have a fear response, or you get emotional because your kid's going through something that's just going to put more pressure on them, and then they're likely not going to want to do it again, because they're like, okay, what I've just said has just made my family upset. I think that the best way to approach something like that is maybe have a sit-down conversation and say, "Oh, yeah, this isn't.. I don't.. I'm not going to punish you, I'm not going to get angry at you. There's like nothing that I'm not going to do anything to you, no matter what you tell me. And stand by that. Do not go back on that. A lot of parents want their kids to tell them everything, but then as soon as they tell them something, they punish them. That is not the way to do it, because if that happens, then your kids aren't going to tell you again, are they? So, if you're going to say that you're not going to punish them for telling you something, you need to stand by that. Yeah, so for, I mean, for example, I have a friend who has been going through some, some of her own issues, and her mum found out that she was going through some issues, and she decided that it was because of her phone, so she took her phone away. That is not the right way to do it. Absolutely, no offense to her mum. I think her mom's a lovely person, but that is just because now all she's, she's thinking is, okay, I've told you something and I'm getting punished for it, so I'm just not.. I'm still gonna have these issues. You haven't helped me at all with these issues, you're just punishing me for opening up to you about something, so I'm just not going to do that again in the future, and I'm probably still going to be struggling,

Rachel Richards: 11:41

such a shame, such a shame, and all of it done with love, all of it done, exactly,

Amelia: 11:46

exactly. This is, it's such a sad thing, because, like, also, first of all, I want to say this in the beginning, but if you are listening to this podcast, you're already a good parent, even if you've made mistakes, even if you don't start, if even if you handle situations like not in the best way that you could have, like, the fact that you're trying to be the best parent you can makes you a good parent.

Rachel Richards: 12:05

Yes, 100% And I make mistakes every day,

Amelia: 12:09

everyone does.

Rachel Richards: 12:10

And what about rules and boundaries? I mean, one mum I spoke to said that she had kids that were sleeping in the same room together, and she's tried to get the phones and things off them, but she can't, and they have their phones and their devices all night long, and they're not going to school because they don't want to go into school, and they're not getting up in the mornings, and

Amelia: 12:35

okay, I would say, if they're just refusing to give you their phones, then just cancel their phone plan, or something like that, you know. There are, there are ways, you know, if you're trying to.. I wouldn't.. yeah, if you're trying to have boundaries with the child and they're just refusing, there are ways around it, you know. But I think again, with the whole not wanting to go into school thing, there's so much more that's happening under the surface there. She needs to unpack what's going on, and the fact that she hasn't done that already is completely fine. I think that, you know, a lot of people don't know to do this, but as somebody who has struggled with academics because of stuff I've been going through, most of the people who I know, who's who have also struggled with wanting to go to school and wanting to do well, it's there's just, it's not because they're lazy or they're unmotivated. It's because there's other stuff happening, and I think they should probably take a set, have a sit down, and figure out what's going on.

Rachel Richards: 13:29

Personally, I think you're absolutely right. I do also think that you can't really get other things in place unless you have sorted out the sleep, because I think that sleep is so important for all, as an anchor for everything else that's going on in our lives. And if I have not had enough sleep one night, two nights, I am.. I'm a tiger. I mean, I find it really hard.

Amelia: 13:53

Same with me.

Rachel Richards: 13:54

Yeah, right. Don't we all find it hard to moderate our emotions, to think clearly, to function? That's why I said to you this afternoon, you came home, you're looking tired. Yeah, go and have a nap. Why not, right? Yeah, it's underrated. But the whole truth is that I think we need to get those blocks of discipline in place, and the key things are things like getting enough sleep, aren't they, and making sure that you don't have your devices in your room with you, because who on earth, if you know, if you're young, young teenagers,

Amelia: 14:18

you're young, and you have access to TikTok, like he's not going to be going on the TikTok.

Rachel Richards: 14:22

Yeah, right, right.

Amelia: 14:23

It's so addictive, it's made to be addictive. And if your kid is going on TikTok, then you know it's not to do with them not wanting to sleep, or any.. it's so, so addictive. Genuinely, I also think that maybe, like, if your, if your child is refusing to give you their phone just put a time limit on there, where, which goes off at whatever time you want them to stop being on their phone,

Rachel Richards: 14:46

but it's interesting, isn't it? Because then I also think, well, what's the relationship there where your kids aren't refusing to do what you ask, because I think you've said to me recently

Amelia: 14:56

that lack of respect,

Rachel Richards: 14:57

yeah, because one of the reasons that we have. Of a good relationship, and you do, actually, because you, of my, of my kids, one of your older sisters was quite very challenging, actually, but you are very clear with me that the reason you do things is because you don't want to damage our relationship, not because you're prepared to just do, because you are the one who pushes back the hardest,

Amelia: 15:19

yeah, so for example, if like, if there's something which my mum wants me to do, which I don't want to do, I'm not going to do it, because I think there are punishments. If there are punishments, I really don't care, to be honest. Like, I would, I just visit my daughter, I'm being so, so honest, I just don't care. But if it makes my mom upset, I really don't like the idea of that happening, because I like, I love a relationship too much, and I really don't want to ruin that with something which I've done, so I will probably do it, depending on what it is.

Rachel Richards: 15:52

I think, as a parent, I'm also, I try not to be too emotional about things, because I think if I frequently said, "Oh, you're going to upset me if you did that. Then again, that would just become.. you would.. you would be able to tell that I was using it. Oh yeah, oh yeah. This is.. this is because we have an honest relationship where we are both trying our best to make sure that what we're doing for each other is beneficial. Yeah, not that it's just we're not bribing each other. I think our behavior..

Amelia: 16:20

I think this is what I was saying about sit-down conversations. I think that they're so, so important, because I mean it really depends on the type of sit-down conversation you want to have. If you want to have, like, a figure out what's going on, my kid mental health conversation, you need to leave your emotions outside the door. If you want to have, you're not listening to me, you're just making my life too hard. It doesn't have to be this, well,

Rachel Richards: 16:40

you need to step up, for

Amelia: 16:41

example, you need to step up. I mean, first of all, I think that you should have already had the whole mental health conversation, like, figure out what's going on, because there's probably a reason why they're not stepping up. But then I think you need to have a conversation where you explain how what they're doing and how it's affecting your everyday life. Yes, and

Rachel Richards: 16:59

yes,

Amelia: 16:59

tap into the empathy, and you need to have that understanding that when you like have a specific room and say, okay, when we go into this room and have this conversation, we're leaving our emotions outside the door. You can't get angry at me for something I'm saying, I can't get angry at you for something I'm saying. There's no storming out. It's a very, you know, it this, this room, this conversation, it's all about communication, not about emotions, or you know, getting angry, or you know,

Rachel Richards: 17:26

yeah.

Amelia: 17:26

I think I think emotions like sadness, and like, you know, just feeling stuff, that's fine. I'm just talking, I'm mostly just talking about anger, to be honest.

Rachel Richards: 17:35

And do you think parents should be admitting their mistakes?

Amelia: 17:40

I mean, if you make a mistake, you need to admit it in the same way that you, if you expect whatever you expect from your kid, you need to expect, you need to be following that as well. Like me and my mum, we have a rule where if she takes my phone, she's leaving her phone outside as well, because I mean, if I, if my sleep is that important to her, then her sleep is that, you know, her sleep should be that important to her as well, so she should follow her own rules. So, do as I say, not as I do is really, really bad way of looking at things, in my opinion, because it's, it's hypocritical.

Rachel Richards: 18:12

You know, what's interesting as well is this, this sense of mood, because just today there were, we had two car journeys, both of which something came up, yeah, because on the way into school you noticed that I wasn't, I wasn't being chatty, and I wasn't being open to you the way I normally am, and you had also got up later, like I'd had to wake you up.

Amelia: 18:38

Oh yeah, I woke up five minutes before we had to,

Rachel Richards: 18:41

I sort of, well, I'd woken you up earlier when you've gone back to sleep, and I shunted you out of bed and said, "Come on, come on, and, and that is irritating, but I wasn't actually even thinking about that at all. It was because I'd read something that I thought was very interesting, and I was chewing it over in my head, and what was great was that you actually said, "I can tell you're really upset or you're really angry.

Amelia: 19:02

Yeah,

Rachel Richards: 19:03

and so what you've done was you prompted me, and my response was actually that that's not it's not what you're doing or saying or anything you've done at all.

Amelia: 19:11

Yeah,

Rachel Richards: 19:12

and there were two things from that. One of them was that that's not our normal, which is really good, because if that was our normal, that would be really problematic. Another thing that was really great was that you actually mentioned it, so that I could then correct you, and that actually often doesn't happen, does it? Often we don't say,"Oh, I've noticed that there's a chill in the room, or what, but we notice it, don't we?

Amelia: 19:32

Yeah, I mean, it's.. I mean, I think for most people it's really, really obvious. It's the same with my sister, like when she comes home and she's annoyed, or you know something. I kind of just take a wide berth because everybody, this thing, everybody can feel it, and then with you, it's your sighing. Now, every time my mom sighs, I flinch, because I'm like, oh my god, she's really, she's really annoyed us on there, but you know, it's really obvious, and you know the same with your kids, like when your kids are upset. Or angry or something, you can feel it,

Rachel Richards: 20:02

yeah, and it's.. it made me think about this, and I thought, well, very often I think us adults need to be more aware of the way we enter a room and the way we're occupying space in the room, because it's very easy to forget the impact you're having on everybody else in the room just by not being present or by being frustrated and angry, and then everyone picks up on it, but unless they feel safe with you, they won't say anything. So I think it's really important for us that we create the mood in our household, so it's actually important to kind of leave some of that on the doorstep, but I also think that we can't expect ourselves to be constantly regulated, and actually the good thing about that was that we had that conversation, and part of that was me saying to you, actually, I wasn't thinking about you at all, and that's an important lesson too, right? Because we always had this spotlight effect, we always think it's about

Amelia: 20:52

us.

Rachel Richards: 20:52

It's a very common mistake that we make. They talk about it in relationships where you know your husband comes home and he seems really angry, and you think, oh, what did I do? It's got nothing to do with you, right? So, this is one of the things that actually is a great lesson in life, isn't it? So, it's it's making sure that we're regularly checking in with each other, and that we're sensitive to each other's feelings, and that if somebody is walking around the house like a black cloud, yeah, it's worth mentioning it.

Amelia: 21:18

Also, also something which I think a lot of parents get wrong, which you have got wrong a lot in the past, no offense, but I mean it's mostly just because you didn't, you don't know how to like, unless you get told, I think most people just don't know how to handle situations like this, but when your kid is like has a storm cloud over their head and you can feel it, and they're giving you really short answers to any questions you ask, stop asking questions, because it will just annoy them more. Just let them go do their own thing, let them calm down, let them, you know, recuperate, let them recuperate, and let them, you know, make sure that their emotions are in control, and let you know. And then you can ask them about how their day was, and about, you know, maybe what was going on, and all that stuff. But in the moment, if you just continue asking questions and trying to act like they're not feeling like that, or thinking that it's something to do with you, so you're trying to make, you're trying to be really like people pleasery, and just, you know, it's really obvious, and it's really annoying, and I think every teenager has experienced that with their parents. I

Rachel Richards: 22:14

think I've got better at it. I know, yeah, totally, totally, I can see, and you're walking towards the car, like she's, she's got a head of steam on, and I would just allow you to sit down, and then I will say nothing. That's the thing, as

Amelia: 22:26

soon as, as soon as I told you, you got a gazillion times better. You didn't, you stopped asking questions, because you don't know that that's the wrong thing to do, unless somebody tells you, because you're trying to make it better by talking to them and trying, you know, that kind of stuff. But just leave it,

Rachel Richards: 22:41

but that's why you're one of my hardest and my best kids to parent, because you are so clear.

Amelia: 22:47

Yeah,

Rachel Richards: 22:47

it's so helpful. So, what about some of these parents are going to be dealing with tweens?

Amelia: 22:53

Yeah,

Rachel Richards: 22:54

and I know that you, again, really, I think it's partly because you're a second child, or you know, sorry, your fourth child, you're the youngest, right? And I know that you pushed boundaries quite a lot when you were very young, and one of the things you did was you would lie to me, and I remember catching you in a lie and saying, Amelia, why did you lie? And you said to me, well, because that's what everybody does.

Amelia: 23:19

No, I also remember another time. Okay, wait, hang on, hang on, hang on, hang on, hang on. Okay, I have an example, which was so I was applying to a charity shop, and my mum came up to me and asked if I'd applied yet, and I knew that if I said no, which I hadn't applied, she would have got really angry at me. So I said yes, and then she caught me out. I have no idea how she caught me out. If I had said no, we would have had a whole argument, and then the same outcome would have happened.

Rachel Richards: 23:47

Yeah,

Amelia: 23:47

so I mean, for that I completely stand by that. I will not take that back.

Rachel Richards: 23:50

Yes, and that's one of the reasons why I think we have to be really cautious with coming down hard on lies. And I think, well, one of the things..

Amelia: 23:58

sorry, what did I say when you caught me out?

Rachel Richards: 24:00

Oh, years ago, years ago, you told me that that's what everybody.. you said that you shrugged, and you said that's what all everyone does, they all lie to their parents.

Amelia: 24:09

Oh,

Rachel Richards: 24:09

and

Amelia: 24:10

well, I mean, to be fair, when, like, tell me five consecutive days where you've not told a lie, anybody, I mean,

Rachel Richards: 24:17

but we kids do need to try these things out, and we need to make it possible for them to be honest, and I think that's one of the messages you frequently push, and it's right, and but at the same time, I was very clear with you that the problem is every time you lie to someone you love, it makes it much harder for the person to trust you in the future, because they just don't know whether what they are hearing is something that they can feel safe with, so how would you say a parent manages that situation? Because, for example, once they get into a certain age and they want to go out and they want to meet people and they want to do things, they want to use their phone in certain ways, they are much more likely to lie and the parents. Obviously, want them to be honest.

Amelia: 25:02

Well, I think this goes back to what I was saying before, which is you can't expect your kid to tell you everything if you're gonna get annoyed and angry at them for it, you know? If you like, for take every situation, every situation you've ever had with a child, every conversation you've ever had, if that would, if there was a potential for that to end up in an argument or in a, you know, an angry situation. Then there was a potential for them to lie about something, you know, you can't, you can't expect your kids to be completely honest if you're going to punish them for it. And I think that's what one of the things, which a lot of parents get wrong.

Rachel Richards: 25:36

One of the things I love about you is when you go out with your friends, you are incredible at checking in with me. You will always contact me without me asking, just message me and say, "Hey, I'm, you know, I'm running a bit late, or "I'm going to be home at this time, or any of those things, which has meant that I'm actually really confident in allowing you to go out and do stuff. Is why do you, why do you do that?

Amelia: 26:03

Well, actually, I think that that's to do, I think that's to do with the fact that, because I have OCD, and I get scared that people are dead when I'm not with them. I think that, well, first of all, I think that even for me, if it was the roles reversed, and my anyone, like my sister would go out, and she had replied to my text that I sent two hours ago. I think that she, she would have died. So, first of all, I think that it's like, oh yeah, that was me. And then, second of all, I like knowing that you're alive,

Rachel Richards: 26:31

right? Right. So, but again, that's about our connection, isn't it? And that I am actually in you at the back of your mind somewhere, rather than you thinking I'm going to get punished if I don't do, yeah,

Amelia: 26:42

yeah,

Rachel Richards: 26:43

yes. So, I think that one of the core things that we've managed to do well is in terms of boundaries and about setting expectations, and not have we.. I don't like the word punishment. I don't like punishment. I think it's enjoys your relationship, and yeah, and as we can tell, the thing, the reason you're doing a lot of good things is because we have a good relationship,

Amelia: 27:10

yeah. Oh my god, I have an example of really bad people, say don't criticize people's parenting styles, but I think this is quite a bad thing. Teacher, I know who tends to go off on a bit of a tangent during classes, which is very annoying, once told me about how she was driving with her son, and the son was criticizing the way that she was driving, so she made her son get out and walk home. If any of you have ever done that, then I'm really sorry that I just.. if I've just insulted you, but that is not the way to understand. If your son's criticizing you the way, the way that you're driving, and you're finding it really like offensive or annoying, it's not in a fun way. I mean, that sounds weird, they could be in a fun way, but you know, like a bantery way. Then maybe stop the car and have a conversation with him about why, why he's saying that, and about how hard it is for you, like how he should get a driving driver's license if he wants to drive, or do you know just something like that, instead of making him get out and walk home

Rachel Richards: 28:10

again. That's about emotional regulation. Yeah, obviously stressful, upsetting, but it is better, like a timeout, where you just stop and you say, you know what, I'm feeling so cross right now, I just need to sit, I'm gonna wait,

Amelia: 28:22

or like, just it's all about communication. Just communicate with, with him or them, whoever's criticizing you, and say, like, okay, what you just said was really offensive. I'm really, really, or like, that really upset me, that you just said that. I don't understand why you said that, and I think you need to think about the way that you talk to me, because I don't think it's okay. Something like that, that would be the way to handle a situation like that, instead of making him get out and walk home.

Rachel Richards: 28:49

Quick test, what's my favorite phrase when someone starts criticizing me? What do I say to Daddy? I just say it must be so hard for you, being so perfect and never getting wrong, to be married to me.

Amelia: 29:02

Oh, yeah. No, that's one

Rachel Richards: 29:03

of the things. Shut.

Amelia: 29:06

When I was younger, my dad, because I have a lot of traits which are very, very similar to my dad. I remember once I left something at home when we were supposed to be going on a family hike, and he got really angry at me because of that, and then the next day he left a sandwich home,

Rachel Richards: 29:23

and it was a really long hike. He went without food. That's instant karma. What you said to him, it was so funny, because he opened his little backpack and he said,"Oh no, I forgot my sandwich, and you, you turned him and used exactly the same words, which was, and whose fault is that? Yeah, I think that parenting today is extremely challenging, because I think what's shifted is parents have understood that they need to be more compassionate and more aware and emotionally involved in their kids. Yes, and that's a really good thing. I think I think it's also made extremely hard for parents to know where the boundaries are and how to implement boundaries, and I think that as I was going through your teen years, I wasn't quite sure with you, particularly to know how to set high expectations and show you that I believed in you and show you that I knew that you could do well without undermining your,

Amelia: 30:29

yeah, well, I mean, actually going back to what we were talking, what we were saying about gentle parenting is, I think that one of the reasons why I really dislike gender parenting is because it, it, it's all about becoming more connected with your kids and being more compassionate, and I love that, but I think the way that it manifests in a lot of relationships is the parent mostly steps back and just lets the like, oh, natural consequences, oh yeah, so I'm just not gonna be involved in my child's life, I'm just going to let nature take its course. No, that's not the way to do things. You need to be there. You need to be involved.

Rachel Richards: 31:07

We're now living in a world which is quite oriented towards being understanding of our kids and emotionally tuned in. And I think you know, I wrote an entire sub stack on this, on how difficult it is to get the balance right. And then sometimes every now and then I realize I'm being a concierge, and I need to step back, that I need to give you the opportunity, and also the responsibility for being an adult, for managing your own world.

Amelia: 31:33

Yeah, I think, I mean, I think again, it's really hard to find sweet spot. I think you need to, the way I think the way to handle it is have boundaries, set expectations. I expect you to do this and this and this each week, you know? I mean, one of the issues that me and my mom have had, has had recently, is I'm not helping enough around the house. So we've had a lot of conversations about that, and I'm still not doing it, which, why is that? I don't know, I just think I forget majority.

Rachel Richards: 32:04

I think I'm too

Amelia: 32:05

really careful. This is stuff I don't want to do, like genuinely, and I'm not saying that, like, you know, oh yeah, I purposely say that I forget it because I don't do it, like genuinely. If it's not one of my priorities, I won't remember, but

Rachel Richards: 32:19

then you, but then you get irritated when I say, Amelia, you need to do this.

Amelia: 32:22

Yeah, because I think, as I was saying, I think that there's.. I think that there's a sweet spot, because I think what will you get to do? No work. Yeah, no, I just think that, you know, it's.. it's about if you nag somebody all the time, then that's just going to make me want to do it less, for example. Oh, here's another thing. Um, man is at the dinner table, I'd be eating my dinner with my fork in one hand and no knife, and you know, just like that kind of stuff. And my mum got really annoyed at me, and she, you know, it ended up that I would always forget that I'd have to do that, and then she would say something, and it just, it ended up happening so much that I would start doing this stuff on purpose. I'm really obviously to piss her off, because I just.. I was just like, I'm fed up with this. I think that the way that we handled that was really good, because now my mom just taps me, and then it is like a little eye movement, and then I remember, and I'm like, okay, well, I just need to fix this one thing, instead of going, Amelia, you need to start, like,

Rachel Richards: 33:21

yes,

Amelia: 33:21

eating with better manners, and so you know, I think if you maybe actually working on our issues right now, maybe, maybe if you just say like dishwasher or something instead of like on off, like you need to unload the dishwasher, like, blah blah, just be like, oh yeah, dishwasher, then I'll be like, oh yeah, I forgot to do that, I'll do that now, or like immediate plate, like that kind of thing.

Rachel Richards: 33:44

Yeah,

Amelia: 33:44

instead of free, like, oh yeah, you need to, you need to be helping me more, you need to be stepping up more. Yeah, so I think that's a good way to have,

Rachel Richards: 33:51

yeah. And I did use one of this, it's called the acronym is BIF, so brief, informative, friendly, and firm.

Amelia: 33:58

Yeah,

Rachel Richards: 33:59

and I think it works really well, and I will be using it more often. And to be fair to you, you came home from hanging out with your sister this weekend at university, and you did your washing, you know, you, without me asking, without me saying anything, you are, you know, quite self-centered.

Amelia: 34:20

Yeah,

Rachel Richards: 34:23

I mean, there's a lot less I need to do now than I used. I don't

Amelia: 34:27

think I'm self-centered. I'm

Rachel Richards: 34:28

joking. Now, there's a lot less that I need to do and worry about now than I used to. You're much more independent, and I do think that an awful lot of it with teenagers is to do with things not seeming to be a priority and not being important to them, and a reminder that works. I mean, that's a good conversation to have, isn't it? To just go, what am I? How should I prompt you in a way where you're going to do the things you're

Amelia: 34:55

expected to do? I mean, I think it's also, it's also case by case, all the all of the stuff we're saying. Really depends on your teenager. I think the best thing to do is ask them what, yes, what they need, what they want, that kind of thing. That's how we sort out a lot of our stuff. We, we have a lot of talks, and we continue having talks until we find something that works. Yes. Um, but

Rachel Richards: 35:13

yes, don't expect it to be a one and

Amelia: 35:14

don't. Yeah,

Rachel Richards: 35:15

and we talk in terms of a team, don't we?

Amelia: 35:17

Yeah,

Rachel Richards: 35:17

like the whole thing is that we're all living in the house together. We should all contribute. We should all benefit from being in that team,

Amelia: 35:23

but again, this is the thing: you live around the house. If the house is messy, that's you have to deal with that mess every day. But when I come home, you're so.. you're thinking, okay, well, you haven't helped me around the house, like you need to be stepping up. I'm thinking, oh, I just had such lovely coffee with my friends. I've got a lot of biology works to do tonight. I might do some of that, you know, but maybe we could send out like reminders or something, or oh, I could set an alarm every day. Well, because if I have like one job, which I have to do around the house, and I just set, or like, not one job, but I mean, you know, the same jobs every day, which I have to do around the house, and I just set reminders on my phone, that kind of thing. I think that that would be that would work so much better than the sheet, because the sheet is really annoying. Okay,

Rachel Richards: 36:05

okay, let's try it. Okay.

Amelia: 36:06

Anyway,

Rachel Richards: 36:06

this is an iterative process. Sorry, is there anything else you'd like to tell parents about what's a good parent?

Amelia: 36:13

Just want to reiterate, if you're listening to this, you're already a good parent, but I want to talk about mental health quickly, the way that you approach talking about mental health, don't, if you haven't had conversations like that with your teens before, don't go straight in, don't be like, okay, so are you depressed recently? I think that the way that you should do it is, you know, just poke around a little bit, but say, you know, how have you been, how have your friends been, you know, how have, like, blah blah, all these different areas which could, like, cause them to struggle, you should be asking about those kind of things, you know, one of my friends, she was really struggling because she was, she just wasn't made for the education system, and I, she, you know, she dropped out of my college, and I think that it was probably one of the best decisions she's ever made in her entire life, because now she's so much better, but this is just what, like, this is just my point, that you know, there are a lot of things that can play in, you know, boyfriends, girlfriends, friendships, school, you know, just anything can really, really play into that. So, you need to dig around and just ask about different things, and if your team's just not opening up to you, give it time, they start, you know, once they're seeing that you're taking an interest in their life, and they actually, if you want to actually know what's going on. If you show that, then they will open up to you. They should open up to you. I mean, I don't, I don't see why they wouldn't, but it's not immediate, and it's not going to happen straight away. If you've never talked about that kind of stuff before, and then if you already know what's going on, and you think that there might be other issues, again, it's just asking questions. Don't be accused of anything, and if they tell you something, and you're like, "Oh yeah, it's the phone, like my friend's mom did, don't take the phone away, because that's just gonna cause so much more issues. If they want the phone, you know, and you, they, you've told them, then they told you something, and then you punish them for that, then that's just not it. I

Rachel Richards: 37:58

think of it as sitting side by side with them, and just saying, so

Amelia: 38:01

it's the sit-down conversations. This is the problem. This is it, but don't put a lot of pressure on them either. If you're talking about mental health, just have a little chit-chat, you know, catch up with your kid, talk, talk to them about their life. You know, I think that's one of the most important things about parenting. I think that's one of the things that people really miss, because they're so worried about what's happening with their kid, they're so worried about their relationship, they're so worried about the kids' future, all that stuff, that you just forget to enjoy being in the presence of your teenager, just spend time with them, yeah, exactly, just spend time with them, see what's going on in their life, build on that relationship, make time to actually, you know, connect with them, and then you know they should start to open up with you about

Rachel Richards: 38:42

it, I think that's 100% yeah, yeah,

Amelia: 38:44

and goes back to right back to the motivation thing, there are so many signals that there is stuff going wrong, if you're, if you ever think, oh yeah, my kid's just lazy, you know, they just don't seem like they want to do anything, or if you, you know, see them crying or anything, just, you know, instead of don't just don't be accusatory, go, maybe if you hear them crying in their bedroom, knock on the door, they're like a one, and maybe just walk away, but if they say come in or anything, just go sit on the bed and have a chat with them instead, and you know, maybe you don't even have to talk about the reasons why they're upset, just go and sit with them, just go and chat to them, and then when that relationship starts to get better, then stuff will happen, stuff will open up, you know, and you can figure out what's going on, and you can help them in the best way possible, and all of it should be based around helping them, but not punishing them, because that will

Rachel Richards: 39:31

controlling

Amelia: 39:31

them, or controlling them, because that will make them stop talking to you straight away,

Rachel Richards: 39:36

and insisting they go and see a therapist. What do you think?

Amelia: 39:41

Insisting is never a good thing. I mean, I think that if they want to see a therapist, you definitely should let them. I don't think you should force them to do anything that they don't want to do. I think that if they have stuff to talk about in your relationships, going. Enough, and they don't want to go to a therapist. You can be that person that they can talk about that stuff to, because what a therapist is, is literally just a gateway to talking and expressing your emotions. And if you have a good enough relationship with your parents, you should be able to do that with them. I also think that you should, in your sit-down conversation space, this is not on mental health, this is about the conversations and the communication. Make it clear to them that if they think that there's stuff that you're doing wrong, they can tell you, and that you will not get angry at them for doing that, because I have another friend whose dad gets angry a lot of the time, and she finds it very hard to handle that, and not angry, as in, like, you know, smashing plates way, more just like, for example, it's to be fair, that is about mental health as well. You know, she, when he, he found out about that she was struggling, he got really annoyed at everything, and you know, everyone. And I said to her, "Oh yeah, why don't you just sit down and have like a conversation with him and say, oh yeah, you can't get angry here, I can't get angry here, we just need to talk about this, and then tell him how his mood and how his anger is affecting you, and how you feel like you can't talk to him now, because of that, and just all that stuff. I think you should make it clear to your team that that is a, that this, that the conversation space is a space to be able to do that, and it's a space to be able to, for you to take criticisms, and you not to get emotional about it, and to just take it on board, be like, okay, I see why you're saying that. I think that the reason why I like this is because of this, and then they can be like, okay, well, the reason why I do that is because of this, and then it would just be a gateway to figuring out all your issues and making your relationship so much better. This is what family therapy literally is. You can do this on your own, to be honest,

Rachel Richards: 41:36

and I think that one of the reasons that parents find it so painful if their child gives them some negative feedback is shame, and I think there's a difference between shame and guilt, which I've talked about a lot, which is shame gets you stuck somewhere and you feel terrible about things. Guilt gives you information that you can change, that you can grow, and one of the wonderful things about the listeners, hopefully, of this podcast is that they're, they're, they, they're thinking I could make some changes and I can grow,

Amelia: 42:10

yeah,

Rachel Richards: 42:10

and that's one of the most incredible things, and if your child sees you growing, guess what you're doing, you're teaching your child that it's possible, and that it's a wonderful thing,

Amelia: 42:21

yeah.

Rachel Richards: 42:21

And then it's beneficial, so it's a good, it's good all round, isn't

Amelia: 42:25

it? How you should look at being given criticism or being told you've done something wrong is, you should be really grateful that you've been told that, because you can then stop doing like they will be thinking that anyway, if they're telling you something, then they have already thought of it, and now you can stop doing that, whatever it was, or you can figure out, you know, maybe why you're acting like that, and maybe they will stop doing whatever is making you act like that, and all that stuff. So it's exactly like what I was talking, how I told my mom that when I got pissed, when I got pissy, and she would just ask questions and questions, trying to make me feel better. That was just the wrong attitude, because then I would just get more and more busy, and I told her that she needed to stop doing that, and now she stopped, and now that, like, she just doesn't do that anymore, and that's just a little irritant that's completely gone.

Rachel Richards: 43:10

Right, Amelia, that's such an interesting conversation. Thank you so much for giving us your thoughts. One

Amelia: 43:15

last thing, also, everybody makes mistakes, you, if you've made a mistake, that's completely natural, if you've done something, which we've said is the wrong thing to do. Everybody has done that, like to be honest, even my mom. Most of these things, the reason why we know it's the wrong thing to do is because we've experienced that, and we've talked about it, we've communicated, and we figured it out together.

Rachel Richards: 43:35

Yeah, yeah, get rid of all the ideas that there's a perfect way to do this, and that you're somehow broken if you haven't been doing a ride, you're doing a great job. We'll get there, right. Thank you, Amelia. What a lovely conversation. Thank you for that. And let's do it again. You know what we should talk about is identity, identity formation. Get your sister in as well. We can have a whole conversation about that. What do you think?

Amelia: 43:57

Yeah, yeah, definitely. We had a conversation about that the other day, didn't we?

Rachel Richards: 44:00

Yeah, great. Okay, that's it. If you found that useful, please send it right now to someone you know, and you can send a review to Teenagers untangled@gmail.com or put it on the podcast itself, because wherever you're listening to it, if you, if you can review it there, either give the stars, or whatever, that makes a big difference to other people being able to find a podcast, I'm on Substack, which is Teenagers untangled.substack.com or just my website, which is also Teenagers untangled.com That's it for now. Have a great week. Bye, bye,

Amelia: 44:32

bye, bye.