The Vital Skill Parents Can Teach Teens and Tweens: Critical Thinking

Hello and welcome to teenagers. Untangled the audio hug for parents going through the tween and teen years. I'm Rachel Richards, journalist, mother of two teenagers and two bonus daughters, and the mere fact that you're bothered to listen today means you're a parent who cares, and you're trying your best, and that makes you a good parent. Now regular listeners will know that I'm not just obsessed with exploring what goes on in the home. I'm also fascinated by how we live in time in society, and how we're raising kids who play a hopefully positive role and contribution to that society. So when I was sent the book teaching critical thinking to teenagers, how kids can be street smart, about AI, algorithms, fake news and social media, by Marie Davies, I couldn't wait to start, and I wasn't disappointed. Honestly, it's as if it was written for us and our kids teachers. Now, Davies is a senior lecturer at the University of Auckland who emphasizes making critical thinking accessible to all teenagers through her street smarts model that we're going to discuss and get some really great tips on how we parents can both model and teach critical thinking to our kids. Marie Davies, thank you so much for joining us.

Thank you. It's lovely to be here, Rachel, and

it's really late at night there, so we're very grateful for parents listening who may think critical thinking sounds a bit abstract or academic. What is it and why does it matter so much in everyday teenage life,

so critical thinking is when you're presented with some news or some information or an argument that someone's making that first of all, it's quite normal for all of us to have An emotional response, right? So we might act angrily, or we get upset or so that's the first natural reaction. If you're a critical thinker. Once that emotion has passed, you'll start thinking, hang on a minute. Is that right? Is what I've read or seen? Is that actually right? Is that correct? And then, and then, that's when you'll start looking at the evidence and who was making the claim and and what are other credible sources saying about it. And so when as a teenager, is a perfect time, while all those neurosynaptic connections are being made, particularly with the tweens. At about 11 to 15 is a perfect time for teenagers to learn those skills, so it becomes habitual. And I think that critical thinking for teenagers is fantastic, because I think there's a lot of negativity around social media. Is a lot of negativity about a lot of things currently, as you alluded to in the introduction. And I think that if you've got, if you're a critical thinker, it kind of gives you that power that gives you some empowerment. You've got a framework to be thinking about all the information that we're getting. All of us are getting bombarded, not just the teenagers. So critical thinking is about that ability to think. Hang on a minute. There might be a counter argument. There might be different perspectives on the topic as well. And the other aspect of critical thinking, which is quite an interesting one that we don't hear so much about is the ethical and moral considerations, and I think that's also really important, and I think that teenagers are plenty old enough to be thinking about that wider societal implications of all this misinformation and disinformation and fake news, and I've talked about that in the book a little bit. I think it's important for teenagers to be able to have opportunities to think about, who are these people, who are scammers? You know, who are these people who who are prepared to be paid to disseminate? Disinformation. And I think that when the teenagers have opportunity to have big, big conversations, you know, robust conversations with each other and with parents, they feel really respected. They like to have those big conversations and are important conversations. And again, I think if you have an understanding of how the world actually works, also can be quite empowering, and you you can feel a bit more in control. And it might be a big claim to make, but I really do think Rachel, there is a link with anxiety, with all of this, I think, yeah, well, I do. I think that once you, once you understand critical thinking, and you feel that you can kind of logically look at the information. Is it correct? Isn't it correct? I'm going to go and check with someone who I trust. I'm going to check with my teacher. I'm going. To check with my friends. Of course, when teenagers feel that they've got a framework to be thinking about all of this information, then I think they feel that they've got more control. And a lot of anxiety comes about when we feel that we don't have control. And so that's why I'm such an advocate for teenagers learning critical thinking. And the nice thing about critical thinking is that actually it should be done collaboratively. And of course, as we know, peer groups for teenagers are hugely important. So I think that part of the issue with social media, and the problems with social media is that teenagers can feel really isolated, you know, and they can go down those rabbit holes and they feel lonely and isolated, but I would really encourage that idea of that collectiveness, so when you do have your teenagers friends over, it would be a neat time to kind of have some of those conversations and to say to the group of them, the three or four of them, while they're eating a pizza, you know, what are you? What do you think about algorithms? What are you? What are you? What's all the fuss like, what is this with Tiktok, and why are they banning these social media sites in Australia? And what do you think about that? And I think that that's a really great way of bringing in the ideas of critical thinking with teenagers. Is that idea of the collective they tend you know, we all had that experience when our kids, you know, were devoted to everything we said, and then at about 11 or 12, they start asking you to drop them off a little bit further down the road, as their teenagers become as their friends and their peer group becomes so important to them. So I see that as a strength, that to use that friendship and that companionship and that support from their peers, as well as seeing us as parents as support.

Yeah, that's there's so much to unpack, though absolutely brilliant tips and such a great point. And I love the anxiety angle, because I do agree. I think this sense of lack of control when there's so much emotional information coming at you, and we've all done it, where you get in something that triggers an emotion and you feel like sharing it. To me, oh, look at this. And actually having that pause button there, and knowing that it's worth stopping and thinking about where this came from, who's doing it? I'm interested in the origins of critical thinking, because I know that you talked in your book about that actually Socratic thought underpinned this whole Well, democracy. And so what is the background of that?

So he was concerned about it was, actually, it's a very, very long time ago in Greek history, but he was actually concerned about justice, and he was concerned that the people who were running the place were kind of taking advantage of those who were who were less well off, financially, etc. So nothing's changed, has it? So that idea about nothing's changed. So that idea around inequity is something that critical thinking should be seen for as well. That's why I was talking about the ethical and moral considerations. And I think that one of the issues with critical thinking is that it has been traditionally seen as quite elitist, so it won't so internationally, you would find that the teenagers at high schools and secondary schools who are in the very top academic classes tended to have accessibility to critical thinking, and also in the types of provocations that they were given, say they had a novel to read, or they were studying a film, or something like that, my research has shown, and other people's research has shown that the tasks that they are required differ from children who are teenagers who are in those lower academic classes. But I think that, in fact, the kids who are in those lower academic banded classes are our most vulnerable, and they're the ones who need critical thinking of all of us. You know, because, because scammers and those awful people who go on Discord, they they are spotting vulnerable teenagers, right? That's who they go for. They don't go for the strong kids who are going to argue back and check who these people are. They're going to go for the vulnerable. Vulnerable. So that idea from came from Socrates of protecting the, you know, the innocent, the weaker people from society. And of course, those who were in power weren't very happy about that. And he was given a poison, and off he went to the other side. So it is interesting that you've brought that history up, because, I mean, it's it is interesting too with social media and that the issues around misinformation and disinformation are not new. Propaganda is not new, right? Propaganda existed in World War Two. Right throughout history, we've had propaganda. What? What's made it so tough for teenagers now is, it's ubiquitous, isn't it? It's, it's the amount and the speed with which the information is disseminated. And one of the reasons why teenagers are very vulnerable, as I said before. They really care about particularly that 11 to 15 age group. They care very deeply what their friends think, and they care very, very deeply what other people think. So, if you and I were to see a reel and it had 5000 likes, we're not going to be that impressed, right? But for a teenager that's very important, they are more likely to trust something that's had a lot of likes, or an influence or an influencer. And influencers are very clever, using things like music and sounds to kind of capture their attention. So understanding teenagers is really important, that peer group is a very powerful influence, and so that's why they're more vulnerable with social media than you or I.

So vulnerable, yes, and actually, I think we want to sort of delve into the social media and all the teenager stuff. But I think what you actually said in your book was, all of us struggle with logic and choosing information because we tend to prefer things that confirm our bias. If we see something that's got a lot of likes, and then that's going to be really impressive to us, particularly a teenager, but actually generally as human beings, if something is an opinion for us, we're going to seek out views that we agree with.

It's something that it's not something that's not to be kind of afraid of. It's just accepting that you have cognitive bias. And that's why, in my book, I talk about the importance of stories and experiences. So before you can start expecting teenagers to be thinking rationally and logically and sensibly about all of this information, it's important that they have the opportunity to express their emotion, to express their story. And so you can say, oh, so what's your experience with that? Or or have your friends had any experience with that? And by doing that, they are then become aware of their perspective, and then they are in a better position to understand where that bias has come from. Critical thinking is often expected. I think that jump too quickly about having an argument and a claim and reasons and all of that, that space before it is crucial. And often, you know, we think we don't have time but, but it's really important to, yeah, as I've said, to allow those stories, and it would be a fun thing too, as I've said, when the kids are over with their friends, you know, as a parent, to to ask for these stories. And

I, actually, I had a whole load come to stay with me one summer, and it was the most fascinating thing, because people don't listen to teenagers actually saying what they think before jumping in. And there was this brilliant research I did for a previous episode, episode which was about conflict management. And one of the acronyms I picked up, which I've used ever since, was LUFU. Listen until they feel understood, and then you can actually have conversations. I will say it in my mind if I'm thinking, oh no, you've got to understand me. It really helps me pause for them to express themselves.

I think that one of the problems with teenagers is that sometimes a 13 year old can be six foot tall or or they can start slamming doors and shrugging, and you say, how was your day? And they don't, you know, they don't talk to you. And one of the interesting aspects about teenagers is that they can appear to not want that closeness, but they absolutely do so to normalize that behavior is really important, and it may be that you meet. Outside the fridge. You know, that's

a great place to meet,

you know, like, somewhere like that, something that, that's informal, casual. And you just might want to say, Oh, how are you going? Yeah, what I've noticed, there's been a lot in the media and a lot of concern about such and such. What do you think about that. So it doesn't have to be around the dinner table that sort of, you know how, how parents can get quite frustrated when they say, What do you think? And they don't get an answer, but it's important to to not give up, to not give

it. Can feel too confrontational, can't you? Sort of, if it feels a bit too formal, and they say, too formal and they're saying, Well, what do you think? Then it can make teenagers feel like they're being inspected, rather than that. You're genuinely interested in what they

have to say. What I would do with my own kids is I would tell my own story. So algorithms are a massive issue, right? Because these social media platforms know everything about us and what we do. And I might say something like, I was in Melbourne recently, when I was there, I went to a comedy show, and then I would say to my children, oh, you know. And all I'm getting now are reels about comedy shows. So my phone knew that I'd gone and then I'm like, Oh, I'm gonna have to change my algorithm. Now, it's so annoying, you know? So it's that collectiveness, it's that that we're all in this together, I think is really comforting to teenagers as well. It's not just something that's been done to them, but it's a problem for all of us. So sharing your stories about social media is really helpful as well.

I think that you've made such an important point there, and I've actually noticed with my teens, when I talk openly about the battles that I have, or even just things like I can't manage my time today, or because I'm tired, or whatever, I hear them using those same words talking about themselves, and it's so effective for helping them process what they're experiencing, rather than them thinking, Oh, I don't want to admit it, because my parents think they're perfect, and then that'll make me look like I can't do things.

It's like your phone at night, right? You know, like you'd say something like, oh, I put into such terrible habits. When I wake up at two in the morning, I always pick up my phone. I can't help myself, but, but the trouble is, I, you know, it's got an alarm on it, so I think I'm going to go to, you know, a cheap shop and buy an old fashioned alarm clock and put it by my bed, drop me to pick you up one when I'm there.

You talk about modeling quite a lot in your book. And actually, for example, my I take all my devices away from my kids is I put my devices outside so they can visibly see them at night. And they state, I say you can look at any time my devices are all there. Give me yours, and I lock them in my room. But you have some wonderful thoughts about how important it is for us to model this thinking and this behavior. So

there will be something that will be current in your news at the moment. And so you would use that language of gosh, you know, I heard the other day that someone was claiming such and such. And I thought about that, and I was thinking, is that right? And, you know? And so then I then I went. I actually went and looked at us at CNN to see what they had to say. And and they were saying such and such. And so you just, you using that language of curiosity and inquiry. Critical thinking can be more than just getting multiple perspectives. It's quite important to say, well, actually, there was an interesting expert who had a counter argument. And that idea of having your ideas counter argued is really important for teenagers that they have opportunities to experience having their ideas challenged. At some point in our life.

Yes,

we're all going to have our point our ideas challenged, right, whether it be in a relationship or at work. And some people really don't cope with that. They really struggle emotionally with having their ideas counter challenge, but it actually takes opportunity and practice that we don't take it as a personal affront, that we that we can take a deep breath and say, well, actually, the reason I believe that is such and such and so that counter challenge will either confirm what we think. Or it may be that we do change our mind, and that idea of changing your mind, Rachel is something that I think's very important to model. That I used to think this it's a problem in society, because often the politicians get ridiculed if they change their minds, potentially, I respect politicians the most who say, Well, I used to think this, and then I went and spoke to the community, I went and spoke to the locals, and I read all these reports, and I've actually changed my mind. So that's another good critical thinking disposition, is to say I've changed my mind. Yeah.

And you also have said that actually, for bullies, if a teenage bully learns to construct a good argument and to think about the issue from alternative point of view, they're much less likely to turn into an adult bully.

Yes, that's right. That's exactly right. Well, but bullying is a lack of empathy, isn't it? And so if you do have practice and opportunity to think about ideas from other perspectives, from a counter challenge, then that helps your understanding, and in turn, that helps with empathy.

Yeah. Can you explain how schemas work in our brain and how they affect our thinking, and what is a schema?

So a schema is that we have a schema for everything, right? So if I go to the supermarket, I could probably do it with my eyes shut, because I've been to the supermarket 15 million times. If you put me in a different supermarket,

or they move it around when they rearrange it, and you go, and you're like, I don't know what I'm doing, right? Yes,

you've got us. We've got a schema for everything. There's a process called myelination. So if you do something repeatedly, the sheath around those connections strengthens and thickens and so that those neural pathways become very strong, and that gives you automaticity, so you can remember things. And so schemas are things that you can have strong schemas that that you're able to think quite conceptually and deeply. And so while because so what happens is that when children turn about 1111, for girls and 12 for boys, our gray matter is the biggest it's ever going to be, and those neural pathways, those connections, start getting chopped. And so there's an expression that's often used, and I'm sure you would have had other people in this program talk about that idea of use it or lose it. And so if a teenager, when they're about 11 or 12, learns to play a musical instrument, learns to play other language, learns to do other things, those connections become very strong. So that's why learning about critical thinking as a teenager is a wonderful time, because that's their connection, that neural pathways of automatically thinking. What are the reasoning? What is the evidence? I'm going to look at the source, I'm going to talk to other people about this. Can develop a sophisticated schema, right? Fascinating,

and it's so apposite at that time, the more the depth of that means that you've got more ability when you're getting more bits of information to analyze it, because you've got a lot more detail behind in your sort of long term memory, haven't you? You've come up with something called a street smarts model, and I think it's to do with the complexity of a topic can really affect a teenager's ability to think critically. So can you give me an idea of how this street smarts model would work, or what it is. So

if you're going to be well, street smarts is developed for you can use it at home and you can use it at school. So if there's something really important that you want to talk to a teenager about, my recommendation is that, first of all, as you say, it needs to be something provocative, right? It needs to be something really interesting and not not not humdrum, or they're not, they're not going to be interested. Once you've got that topic, that's a really important topic, you start with their story, what you said, with that wonderful acronym, just listen to their story and their experiences, and then you just listen, and then you can say, well, what's your position on it? In critical thinking, they use the word argument. An argument doesn't mean when you're fighting with your brother, you know an argument is a substantial. Or claim. So you could say to a teenager, well, what's your position on that? And then they'll tell you. And and you go, Oh, that's interesting. What you know? Where did you get that idea from? It's that idea of evidence, you know. And then, and then to just gently say, Well, I don't know about that. Would would everyone think that? And you could play the devil's advocate there. Well, I'm not sure that counselors would think that. Or I don't think that Joe our neighbor would think that. Actually, what do you think Joe would think the cross neighbor, or someone you know, teenagers are plenty old enough to start thinking about inequities in society. And you can have that conversation about, Well, who would benefit from that? Who would not benefit from that, from your position. So thinking about others that, in anything these inequities right, and in anything, in any position, these power issues. And teenagers love talking about that big story.

Do Yeah,

so, so you've started from them. You started from them, their story, going into their position without having to justify it, thinking about different perspectives, a counter argument, and then thinking about the wider societal issues of that argument. And then the last part is really just thinking about whether or not they still think that, whether after having that discussion, it's confirmed, or they've changed their mind, or might not have been changed, you know, might have been slightly tweaked. A critical thinking is about the strength of your argument. So you and I could be have the same argument, but my argument might be stronger, or your argument is stronger. So that's another word to use at home. That was a strong, you know, strong argument that they use that was pretty amazing. You know, with debating, you're either it's that right or wrong, but critical thinking is not that binary right or wrong.

Yes, and you used a phrase in your book I loved, which is, it's not about winning the argument. It's about finding the winning argument. So it's not, it's so depersonalizing. It it's not that you're, you know, you don't have the right way to think. It's that, oh, this argument looks better. That's

and so an example here recently, a mayor of a smaller regional place, said that we've had some terrible flooding here recently, and Amir said to the media, oh, you know, the government's calling out these emergency crisis before they happen. It's too woke a topic like that would be a fun one to talk about with your teenagers. It's got to be something provocative and ambiguous and meaty enough for them to talk about using critical thinking. Rachel, you're not going to be using critical thinking every day while you're eating your porridge. But at times, having those big, important discussions is wonderful, and I've worked with teenagers for a very long time, and the most important thing to a teenager is respect. They want they're respected, and they want their ideas to be respected, and they lock they want to be heard, and if you are, if they develop those critical thinking skills, they're more likely to be heard and to be respected.

What a great point.

There's a certain president at the moment who's getting a lot of flack, and people are saying all sorts of names and things, but, but the people who are saying, why, what, what, what he's doing is incorrect and causing harm are going to be heard more. Aren't they

absolutely right? Yes, and I love that. I think I interviewed Dr David Jaeger quite some time ago about his book 10 to 25 and the thing that really sparked a new way of thinking for me was he said that from the age of puberty, they become absolutely focused on status and respect. And if, if you're trying to understand behavior that looks really dumb, just focus on where are they get trying to get status and respect. Here, I'd love to talk about social media. You do mention that the social media ban in your book, and sort of the concepts and what do you think are the good and the bad things? Because one of the things you said, which I completely agree with, is that it doesn't actually create harmful attitudes. Such as racism, misogyny or bullying, it's reflecting them, and I have heard that from other people too. So what are your thoughts about the sort of pros and cons of social media and for teenagers?

Well, I'm going to give you a bit of a long winded answer. The the reason why, one of the reasons why teenagers are more vulnerable to the harm on social media is that because their brains aren't fully developed, is the part in the middle of our brain, our limbic system, which has got our amygdala in our hippocampus right for teenagers when they read information or or hurtful information, their emotions are activated because their prefrontal cortex, their reasoning and their executive functioning isn't fully developed, right? So they are going to react more emotionally than you and I to some of the reels that they're getting. So that's one of the reasons why they are more vulnerable to some of the social media platforms. Having said that, because their prefrontal cortex isn't fully developed, we want to be developing opportunities to vet, to develop that reasoning, executive functioning, that maturity. So if you're doing that all the time, if you're over protecting and not allowing opportunities for them to be becoming increasingly self managing as they get older. You're not actually helping them. You're better to be providing support. I can't emphasize that enough that you know that we've got these platforms. You know, who are these people that are, you know, that are sitting, beavering away, working out algorithms and and having those conversations, to me, is a lot healthier. And, yeah, over protection is something that's an interesting idea, isn't it, because we all love our children so much and you want to protect them, but actually, if you over protect teenagers, they can then become vulnerable. The big thing to teach teenagers, any and children, is to trust their intuition. So if they're on something like discord, they can be watching Arsenal on a football game. And you know how you have the conversations that come up? And there are people who will go on those conversations who aren't interested in watching arsenal. They're wanting to connect with teenagers and to start grooming them, right? Well, if you over protect teenagers, how are they ever going to spot that language of, you know, grooming, etc. So I think it's much healthier and more helpful to teenagers to be talking and listening and like I say, when their friends come over to chat about this stuff. And also, I think, ideally, in an ideal world, if you know your teenagers, friends, parents, is very helpful. If you all decide, if you all decide on kind of the same rules, is very helpful, because then the team the kids can go, Oh, our parents, you know, they won't let me watch. They're only letting me on the screen two hours a day, but, but because all of their friends have got those same rules, can really help. So it's those things that are my preference, rather than banning. I think that with banning, unfortunately, other platforms are going to pop up very, very quickly. And I think that banning in teenagers is like a contradictory in terms,

how can we make this more exciting for teenagers?

Yeah, I think that many, many teenagers, including one of my children, would see that as a challenge. They the evidence from Australia is that the kids immediately worked out using VPNs, how to get on and so what were they learning?

And it becomes the cool kids, like we're the cool kids, because now we've got something that you guys can't and I mean, I think parents have to decide for themselves. I do. I think I'm not going to tell people what they should and shouldn't be doing, and I completely understand. And people who take one or the other viewpoint, because it's a difficult, much more nuance, and some other things, and I but I do very much agree with you that I think it's really important that we're engaging with those kids on what they might be accessing and why it has the impact it has, because I think they learn so much from hearing us talking about these things, even if they're not, they're rolling their eyes. And I love you've got some you've got a whole section talking about the algorithms, the different algorithms in different platforms, and I'm not going to go into them all right now. But how do you think we should be talking to our teenagers about that this, rabbit hole nature of algorithms. Because we can, we can say that this is this happens, and even ourselves, even sometimes I'll be researching something, and I'll think, oh, gosh, everyone's thinking this. And I think, Wait a second. And then I think, right, where can I find the opposite viewpoint? Because I think these are these algorithms are now so powerful that, and particularly in AI, they'll push stuff that you want to hear. How can we talk to our kids about this? Because they teenagers often feel their views are universally obvious.

I think that, well, there's no way around it. Of anything teenagers need to understand with social media is algorithms. They must understand how they work. And you could if they were if you said to your teenager, what's the difference between an Instagram how the Instagram algorithms work and Tiktok algorithms work? Can you explain it to me? You can sort of do that naive questioning, as though you don't know if they don't know. Go, I'd jump on your laptop or whatever and go, let's find out. And and go, oh, oh, gosh, that's interesting. If you were really, really concerned that one of your children's behavior had changed quite considerably, and they're sullen and they're non talkative, and they don't seem to be interacting with their friends, and that lack of interaction is very concerning. You go to the school, and you talk to someone at the school and you tell them that you're concerned you you would go to, I would go to a therapist or a counselor and describe the behavior, describe the shifts in behavior, and take it very, very seriously. It's dangerous to blame social media, you know what I mean. So if, if, if your teenager is playing basketball or in a chess club, and there's that banter, that mischievousness, that cheekiness, they've got friends, and then they're arguing with you. I don't want to go to bed. It's not my time for bed. You know you're always picking on me all that normal stuff. Then that going down a rabbit hole is not so dire. It's when that other you see, that other behavior where the algorithm has hooked them into an obsession, obsessive behavior. That's when I would worry and seek help and support.

I thank you so much for saying that, because I think a lot of parents wonder and worry about, what's the tipping point? How do I know? And one of the things I loved about your recommendations was one tip was to help your kids by getting them to annotate things that they've seen. Is it fact or is it opinion? You know, you can actually sort of go through stuff and go but also when you're talking about interactive so you've just mentioned your kids playing basketball or in a chess club or something, and how important the relationship nature of understanding critical thinking is because, you know, one of the things you pointed out is that we found this in covid where they were sort of sitting at home, you know, doing their thing, and they lost all of those skills. They lost all of those opportunities. And I think in some societies, we haven't really got that back yet. What are your thoughts about how important this relationship nature, the relationships we have are to encouraging critical thinking.

Relationships are extremely important for teenagers, their relationship with their teachers, with their parents, their grandparents, and it's tied in with that idea that they're reacting more emotionally. So sometimes you'll hear teenagers say, oh. You'll often hear about that age 14, the. Say, Oh, my teacher doesn't like me, and it's quite irrational. So relationships, that's why relationships are very, very important to teenagers. So relationships can be fostered through critical thinking, through seeing misinformation, disinformation, fake news, going down a rabbit hole on your social media, you are not alone. You're not alone with it. It's about it's sharing and talking to others about this, because sure as eggs, their friends will be having the same problems. So that talking about it is important. I love that,

and also the sort of people that they're following, like, Who are these people? Rather than shying away from it and saying, don't, you can't follow that person. You shouldn't is actually, you know, because you've got this wonderful point about how important it is for us parents to model good behavior, to have these conversations and engage in their lives. What you value as a family is very, very important to teenagers. So if you make a lot of comments about if you say, oh, so and so has lost a lot of weight, or isn't so and so beautiful and oh, look at them. Aren't they beautiful? Look at her shoes. Look at her tricks. If you're valuing beauty, that is where a teenager is more likely

to see that beauty is valued. So they're going to more likely look at influencers who support that. But if you value, I don't know bravery, or, you know, sort of people who are who are comedians, or sort of so valuing other things that modeling as well. So that choice of your language, how their fathers talk about women and girls, is hugely important to boys, isn't it?

Yeah, where

did that come from that so many boys started watching and listening to Andrew Tate? Where did

well, I think, I think yeah, I think they do, yes. I mean, I think that a lot of boys are looking for role models who inspire them and make them feel good about their masculinity. And they've gone looking for positivity, and they've got something that's actually feeding them poison. It's very sad, I think. And you're right. I think the values that we show at home, I've talked about this so many times on my podcast, you need to understand what your values are. Figure them out. Have conversations with your partner like, what are our values? And are we actually living those at home and showing our kids that that's what we genuinely think and feel and

have

fun. Yeah, and have fun. Exactly what fun? Lots of fun. And I think it's in the fun moments that you could make that connection, and then the kids feel really valued and they matter in this unit, and then they're more prepared to raise other things that maybe they're more worried about. A couple of things I want to cover just before we go. One of them is you talk about the types of questions that can be used, because a lot of the times kids will be listening, and I've had this with my kids, where they'll be listening to conversation or something which triggers they feel uncomfortable and they don't really know how to get engaged in it, because they don't know the sorts of questions to ask that will open up the discussion. Because it sounds very emotional, what sort of questions can be used. So

I'll talk about four different types of questions. One question that's very useful to learn is the uptake question. So you were using the uptake question throughout this whole interview. So I would say something, and you'd say, Oh, that's really interesting. Can you tell me more about that? So, uptake is that. Can you tell me some more about that? Have you got an example of that? What do you mean by that? Three types of questions that can really raise the level of a conversation. So it's not, you know, just sort of silly banter. And there's one called speculative, and that's when you go, Gosh, I wonder if that's right, or what did they mean by that? Do you think so that sort of inquiring speculative one, another one is analysis, and analysis is where you're looking for a pattern. You're sort of looking for, you know, your patterns of thought, that sort of collective ideas, general ideas. And then the third one is generalization, where you you're sort of making a conclusion. So you might have had a conversation, to say, 10 minutes, and then you go, I suppose what we've agreed on then is this, you know, you kind of conclude, making some conclusions,

yes,

yeah, so that's it. So questioning is absolutely key to critical thinking. As I say, you need practice. Us to learn them and and as you've said a number of times throughout this podcast, is that modeling so if you did that, if you did that type of questioning at home, would be so fantastic for teenagers, they'd really start thinking about things. The other thing very quickly. You know how this your teenagers have novels to read at school. If you read, read the novels that they're reading, or they, quite often in media studies, will do film studies. So I used to read the books and watch the same films, and that's that's when you can have really good chats. And of course, they love it because,

yeah,

you're helping them get a better grade at schools.

My daughter studied Media Studies for a while, and she I sat and watched the things with her, and she'd be pointing out the techniques that were being used. And it was interesting for me too. I was like, Really, gosh, you know, all this is amazing stuff, and so it's wonderful. It's a wonderful way of connecting as well, isn't it. I love that suggestion. When my children got to about age 14 or 15, I started taking them to kind of indie movies, sort of Rialto

movie, not blockbuster movies anymore. And they love they thought they were so growing up because of those movies, you know, people have got their glass, you know, the glass of wine, and it's a bit Potter, and it's a bit more growing up and and they loved that. And then we could have deeper chats about those sort of more art house. Indie type films can be a really good way to have good conversations. That's a

great suggestion. I'm going to do that with my kids. That's fantastic. And one other thing was fallacious arguments. Can you talk us through, how you spot them, what what they are?

So that's that's things like cherry picking. So you know, when you're given some information, it was, comes back to that cognitive bias

Rachel, that if you

like a particular politician, right, and you hear them on the talking on the news, or you're reading about them online, you will, you will pick out what you want to hear. And on the other side, if it's a politician that you don't like, you'll cherry pick. You'll pick out the bits that confirm what you're already thinking. So it's that kind of fallacies that also help us to become more critical of our own thinking. We're aware of our shortcomings, and it does go back to that bias, oh, like the red hearing, that there's an argument, and then someone sort of comes up with information that's really got nothing to do with the topics, like a distraction, you know, having a detective shows, they often put in red hearings, don't they said, to distract us from really what's going on. So it's things like that that that sort of push

you off track.

They push you off track from your thinking. Is

there anything else? What last thoughts for parents who are sitting here, I do actually have lots of educators as well. Are there any thoughts that you had that you'd like to share, just to leave this in a way that would give parents something to really chew on, or to just a thought to go away with.

I hold some optimism about social media. I think that, I think increasingly people will stop being so obsessed with their phones. I think that it is generally considered now that too much screen time is harmful. And I think I would like to think that we can go back to talking if your children's friends come over, go and buy some board games, go and buy Jenga, go and buy a Pictionary. Put them on the table, get the pizzas and just leave the room, and you'll hear the laughter within 10 minutes. So it is about providing opportunities that aren't screen time. Instead of saying, you know, you're on your phone too much. Get off. Get off. Get off. What are other things that are in place that have been provided so that, you know, because kids will say they're bored a lot. So I just think, think about other things that can replace the. That screen time.

Completely agree. I mean, we don't have to micromanage it like you said. You just it's like, just drop the seeds and they'll pick them up. Yeah. And I totally agree. And I think that just taking away something without providing an example, because the other thing is, we forget that we grew up in a time when it was obvious that you go out and ride your bike, it was obvious that you would whatever. And these kids are growing have grown up with modeling of a lot of parents just being on their screens. And we need to sort of push back into that environment, the home environment, the school environment. Because I also suggested this at school, you know, bringing up the board games at school the cards. Cards are brilliant. You can never go wrong with cards. Just have those things available, so you can Yes exactly, and they're cheap, and you can carry them in your pocket. So even if you're out and you're waiting, you're late for something, you know you're having to wait for a long time in a queue, bring out the cards. So yes, I think that I love your point, and I think it's actually critically important, and it's also more fun, and we want fun. Marie Davis, what an amazing conversation. Thank you so much. I loved your book, and if people want to buy it or they want to contact you, what's the best way

it is, it is currently being sold all over the world. Taylor and Francis Routledge, who published the book, are truly international. So wherever you are, you would be able to to buy the book.

I will put the link in the podcast note so they know exactly how to get in contact with you. So just go on to the links and you'll find whatever you want. I'm going to do a write up of this on my sub stack, just so that we've got a bit more. Because I love these sorts of conversations. I think they're so important. Marie Davies, thank you for joining us. If you found this useful right now, send it to someone else you know, and it will help them. It helps my podcast. It's the way that I get known and seen. You can contact me on teenagersuntangled@gmail.com you can write a review or give it a five star if you'd like to. And you can find me on substack. I'm teenagersuntangled.substack.com, all the links are in the notes. That's it for me. Have a great week. Big hug, bye, bye.