Nov. 11, 2025
Talk to your boys: Masculinity, gaming, sexuality and emotions.
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Ask Rachel anything Explore Worldwide Holidays - Click here for an adventure your child will never forget: 👇🏻 https://www.explore.co.uk/experiences/family-holidays?utm_source=teenagers-untangled&utm_medium=podcast&utm_campaign=family-adventures There's so much talk about masculinity and how boys should be, but not an awful lot of advice for parents on raising confident, caring young men in today’s world. If you’ve ever wondered how to really connect with your son, or how to navi...
Explore Worldwide Holidays - Click here for an adventure your child will never forget: 👇🏻
There's so much talk about masculinity and how boys should be, but not an awful lot of advice for parents on raising confident, caring young men in today’s world.
If you’ve ever wondered how to really connect with your son, or how to navigate the big topics of screen time, masculinity, emotions, or tough conversations about sex, consent, and technology—this episode is for you.
You’ll learn why boys’ emotional lives are often misunderstood, how to move from authoritarian parenting to genuine connection, and practical strategies for talking with—not at—your teen. We’ll discuss effective communication techniques, how to balance screen time, help boys build empathy and resilience, and tackle tricky issues like substance use and healthy relationships.
Whether you’re a parent, educator, or anyone supporting tweens and teens, you’ll walk away with actionable tips, heartfelt stories, and renewed confidence for building positive, trusting relationships with the boys in your life.
JOANNA SCHROEDER:
Book: Talk to Your Boys
https://joannaschroeder.substack.com/
Episodes mentioned:
Dr David Yeager: Teenagers wanting status and respect https://www.teenagersuntangled.com/motivation-how-to-motivate-your-teenager-and-why-blame-and-shame-doesnt-work/
Dr Joanna Finkelstein: The sexy lampost
https://www.teenagersuntangled.com/116-girls-beauty-standards-entitlement-and-misogyny/
Brendan
Explore Worldwide Family Holidays
Click here for adventures your children will never forget.
Click here for adventures your children will never forget.
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My email is teenagersuntangled@gmail.com
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WEBVTT
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Hello and welcome to teenagers. Untangled the parenting hug for all of us going through the tween and teen years. I'm Rachel Richards, journalist, mother of two teenagers and two bonus daughters. Now, do you ever think I'd like to have better conversations with my boys? But I'm not sure I'm getting it right, because it feels so easy to mess it up, whether we have boys or not. I'm utterly convinced that, just as a rising tide lifts all boats, positive support for boys will benefit my girls too. So I'm thrilled to be joined today by Joanna Schroeder, co author of a brilliant book, talk to your boys 16 conversations to help tweens and teens grow into confident, caring young men.
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She's the mother of two teenage sons herself and a daughter, Joanna. Thank you so much for joining us. Thank you for having me now. Your book argues that we often treat boys as kind of a simpler, less emotionally complex thing than girls. What's the biggest mis assumption parents make about adolescent boys, and how does that hurt the very boys we're trying to raise?
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Well,
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yeah, like you said, we too often assume that boys don't have a rich internal life like we think that they have those basic emotions of, you know, hunger, drive and wanting to meet girls and go on dates and and play sports, and it's all just a stereotype. In reality, they have just as much depth of emotion as girls. They often are just taught not to show it or have a harder time expressing
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it. Yes, and it's interesting, when I spoke to Brendan kriotkovsky, he said that really, this starts very young, like sort of five years old. They start getting the message that because they, you know, they can often be quite sensitive, and that gets shut down. And so from then on, they think, well, that's not the way I should be behave. And then they try to be performative about it. So I think one of your starting points that I liked is that we need to talk with boys, not just at them. So what does talking with boys look like in practice?
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I want to give a lot of empathy to parents of boys, because I've been there.
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And this thing we talk about with tamping down their emotions, it sounds so cruel. It sounds like, oh, they turn five and we say, Don't cry because of something we're uncomfortable with or because we're trying to repress them. In reality, we teach all of our kids to behave a certain way at school, a certain way with their friends, a certain way at home, and we, no matter how it is no longer working out. We have we have our kids best interests in mind when we do it. The good news is we don't need to keep telling them, like you said around age five, you can't cry any differently than we would with girls. We can be that safe place at home. As far as conversations, one of the biggest challenges is to see your teenager as someone other than your little baby boy, because when they're tiny, we say, pick up your shoes, move them to your room, put them in the closet, close the closet door, grab this, grab that. Do this, then do that, and they do it. Generally. They follow our instructions, because we have set up that kind of infrastructure in a sense of respect of this is how it works.
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I tell you, you do it, and we're all comfortable. It is natural for tweens and teenagers to push back against that, and we see it as disrespect when it's actually a developmental process. That doesn't mean that we let them walk all over us, but it means we have to start thinking more about, as you said, talking with not at our boys, as they get older and they're going to be more receptive, just like I would be if you wanted to talk with me, versus if you were trying to talk at me.
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Yeah, and I think David Jaeger in 10 to 25 I keep bringing him up because, because his book's brilliant, but he talks about how all teenagers, 10 to 25 really focus on status and respect. And I think if we're not giving our kids that respect when we're having conversations, then they're going to shut down, yeah, and not want to listen
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to us the authoritarian kind of dictator approach to teenagers. It never worked, didn't it didn't work back in the 60s when my mom was growing up. It didn't work in the 80s when I was growing up.
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It's not working with my kids, as they say, authoritative parenting versus authoritarian parenting means that we earn our children's respect and that they listen to us and they trust us, because they've learned that we have their best interests in mind and that we respect them, and we can't do that by acting like dictators with them.
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Doesn't work with any kid. It really doesn't work with teenagers. And I always think, would I approach a co worker or a friend the way that I'm approaching my kid, as in, I don't, yeah, right. I don't barge into my best friend's house and say, you know, I've got a real problem, and you need to talk to me about it right now. I knock on the door, or I call her and I say, Can I hop by? I need to talk to you. Do you have a minute, especially during busy times when I think she might be at work? So why do we do this with our teenagers?
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Why do we assume they've got nothing going on and that. We own all of their time?
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Yeah, I think it's really important, and we feel emotional and we think I need to talk, or we'll suddenly decide that there's something we're worrying about, and we'll try and grab that moment when that's not really when they are ready to have a conversation
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and what. So we can set when we do that, we tell them, I don't respect your time.
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I don't think what you're doing is important. And increasingly, every year that our tweens get older, the more important the things that they do become. For instance, our teenagers sometimes when they're holding a phone and it just looks like they're tapping away playing a game or doing social media, sometimes they're doing heavy emotional support for a friend, or sometimes they're studying for the AP exam, or sometimes they're looking up their assignments. They are doing important work. They're doing work that we want them to be doing. You know that we need them to be connected in order to be successful. But for some reason, we look at them and we think they're doing nothing I'm going to interrupt my time.
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Is more true so true. And so in your book, you've got a subtitle, which is 16 conversations, and they're sort of mental health, masculinity to sex, consent, money, power, violence. You've really covered the ground. If you had to pick two of them that you think are the most urgent for parents today, what would you be choosing and why?
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Well, the number one, most important chapter in our book. And I would like, if anyone buys our book, if you read one thing, please read the communication chapter.
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The reason is, nobody tells parents how to communicate with especially not older kids. Maybe you learn baby sign language when your kids were pre language right. Beyond that, nobody says here's a better way to say it, especially with tweens and teens, the communication chapter is heavily research and data backed. It's based on work by psychologists and experts in communication. It's not just something that we tested out with our teens, though we did test it out with our teens and our students to make sure that it felt right and that it worked. It's based on tried and true communication tactics that we generally think work best in marriage. Turns out, they work great with kids. They work great in the workplace. They work great with friends
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too. So massive benefit, no matter. It's not even just talking to the boys, right? That's brilliant. All of my friends say,
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When are you going to do the talk to your men book. Talk to your husband.
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Husband's book. And I'm like, I mean, you could just read that first chapter. Yeah, it's there.
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It's all there. And it's, it's a toolkit so you can pick it up and you can scroll. You can see, or so used to screens, I just said, scroll you through. You can scan through it and see, okay, here's a technique that works. Here's a script that might help. And then whatever you are dealing with at the moment, you can choose to flip straight to that one depending on the boy's age. I think if your kid is eight, 910, or 11, I would read the screen time and technology chapter first, because that's probably where the majority of your arguments and conflict are coming from, and that's the most pressing issues for for young people, regardless of gender, we need them to have better media literacy so they're not being scammed and duped and recruited by by bad guys online. And then if you have your kid, I think the sex chapter, we've got to read the sex and pornography chapters. Yeah, absolutely.
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I totally agree. And when it comes to masculinity and what it means to be a man. What do you think are the hidden pressures in today's culture that boys are facing?
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This is such a wild time to be a boy. In many ways, it's so much better because there are a broader range of examples for boys to look up to. We've here in the United States, we've had a black president, right, that adored his wife and was very engaged with his two little girls.
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That's beautiful. We've had a wide range of men in power that have shown their emotional sides and their commitment to their children, right? We've got major league baseball players carrying their little kids out to celebrate with them when they win the World Series. So we have these lovely examples. On the other hand, it's still so confusing to them, because, yes, you're allowed to show your emotions, but when and with whom and how and and even girls and women are telling them, we want to see your emotions, and then they try to show their emotions, but they don't have the skills in order to like the there's emotional responsibility that maybe they haven't been taught yet. So then they have a girlfriend, or a boyfriend, or whatever partner, and they're crying their eyes out to this person because they finally had a chance to be vulnerable with somebody. Well, your partner wasn't built to be your therapist. So man, what a mess of messages they're receiving, and not a lot of instruction as to how be a good man, okay, how?
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Yeah, be kind. Be good to girls, okay, be a feminist. How, how they weren't born, knowing how most of us adults don't even know. How? No, you know what's so interesting, boys right now are often looking for serious relationships, teenage boys and boys in college and girls are looking for hookups, and they want their independent time with their friends. And it's so different than we were when we were young, right? I mean, I remember the stereotype being like, if you just wanted to hook up, you got the side eye, and boys just wanted that. And you really I want what a conflict it has. Often we are seeing it has really switched. In so many cases, because girls are getting a lot of messages that that boys and men are just dead weight, that you have to drag behind you, and what a sad thing for our boys, just as they're becoming more emotionally aware.
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Yeah, I know it's so rough. And to be clear, I think everyone you know, consenting adults should be able to do whatever they want. I'm not shaming the girls at all. It's just a separate, a different set of emotional tools our boys need in order to handle that compared to what we and our brothers and our husbands needed.
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Yeah, I hear what you're saying, and coming back to what you were saying about knowing how to behave, it's really interesting, because there are I've, you know, I've said to people before, if you're looking for role models for your kids, you know, looking your local community, because sometimes people don't have a partner who's male that can, you know, support their sons. What I heard from Mike Nicholson from progressive masculinity, and when he was talking about it, he said, the boys know that they should behave in a certain way, but they've never seen a man that they admire and respect actually doing the things in front of them, going and looking for help, or saying, I'm really sorry, or asking for verification for how things work, and if they've never seen that, they can't figure out the words and
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yeah, oh, there's so many layers to this, because we have so few male teachers, not just in high school and middle school, but also in elementary school.
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They're so few and far behind because that was considered a feminized job, and because of that, if you are a boy without a man or a grandpa in your life every day, you are just with women all the time. And I love women. My boys have so many women who've influenced them positively. But how do you know what it looks like when a man gets angry and then manages his anger in a way that doesn't harm anyone else. They have no illustration of that, right? And we can do that. I try. I've always tried to model how I'm handling my anger for my boys, because I knew that nobody taught me. So if I'm driving and someone cuts me off in traffic and I'm angry, I try to always be like I feel that anger, and instead of doing a silent bit of work with my anger, I'm now trying to speak it out loud.
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That guy just cut me off, and I'm so mad, and it scared me, and I want to, and I'm just, I'm going to take a breath. Okay? I like that. Taking a breath. I'm going to put on a song. Let's talk about something else, because it's not worth my time to be angry at this guy. He's not even here. It's done. I normally that is work you and I would do silently in our heads, right? But speaking it out loud, so you and I can do that, but it's even better when they see a man saying that they're angry or that they're sorry or that they're feeling sad, and then explaining to them the process they're going to go through in order to feel better and in order to come back to a version of themselves that is healthiest and happiest. So yeah, we need more teachers. We need more male teachers. We need more male social workers, more male administrators. All of these things in the schools will make a huge difference for our boys if they are able to engage emotionally and model the type of masculinity that is going to serve our boys. Now we just did School Talk this last week, Christopher and I, my co author, and one area where parents were really frustrated was we were talking about how all types of masculinity are acceptable, and you don't always have to be tough, and you don't always have to be sporty. And I fear sometimes it sounds like we're saying that tough kids and sporty kids are not the right kind of boys, and in reality, we want a definition of masculinity for our boys that that can hold all of it, that can hold the kid that loves to go to the gym and lift weights and build muscles, and the kid that desperately wants to grow a mustache, and the kid that that loves to be in plays and to sing songs and and isn't into sports, all of those types of boys are amazing, and we want them all to be accepted and do well,
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yeah, that's so important. There's a lot of internal life for boys that we don't necessarily see. And there are things like, you know, when it comes to the technology, screen time, social media, gaming, what's. Question that a parent could ask about their son's digital world beyond how much screen time are you? How can we approach this?
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How do I get video games away from my kids?
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That's a big question that we are asked, especially by parents of, say, nine to 13 year olds, that they are really worried that the video games are the problem, and what we try to say is, instead, it's, how do we help them use technology in a way that will build a good life and in balance with all of that in real life stuff. So I can give an example of my boys, one of my boys, they both loved Fortnite. One of them would get so angry when he lost that he would like, kick out in front of him or throw the remote, and the other one would just be like, I don't care. And we talked about, Listen, you guys have different relationships with Fortnite. For you, it's fine, and you turn it off and the game is done. But for you, there is something going on. It is pushing your buttons, and you're getting angry, and then he ends up getting he's not allowed to play the game because he broke something, or because he, you know, reacted in a way that wasn't, uh, wasn't comfortable for the people around him and not safe. So it's like, I want you to think about if Fortnite is the best game for you. I'm going to give you a couple weeks without Fortnite reacting so strongly, because I'm not comfortable with how you're reacting, and then let's try it again. But I want you to be thinking about, is there a different game that during your screen time you could play that won't leave you so agitated?
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Because I can't imagine it's comfortable to be that angry at a game? Wow, yes, yeah. And he took a break from Fortnite on his own for many years, and he still it's funny, because both my kids are athletes, and they're taken up with their sports in the gym and their friends, but sometimes he'll play Fortnite, and he'll still say, this is a bad game for me.
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So different. Yeah, he knows it's it's wired in a way that doesn't work for him. We're all different. And so this idea Fortnite gets kids addicted. No, that's not how it works. Some games work better for some kids, and some kids need less time on screens. Some kids can tolerate a little bit more. So engaging them with that. Let's set the rules together. What kind of screen time would be most meaningful to you, and why? How much time do you think is reasonable on a week day, if any? And how much is reasonable on a weekend? How can you make sure, on the weekends, when you're playing more, that you're also getting outside, moving your body, seeing in real life, friends or family, and that conversation with them is going to be so much more effective than saying, I read a book. And here's the ratio, you cannot play video games at this time, but you can play video games at this time, and you cannot have social media until you're this age, but you can have it after that. It's really your kid and you as teammates in solving this problem. And then if something goes wrong, you can adjust, you can adapt.
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And I think what's so beautiful about that approach is it will. It's the nuance, obviously, but it's actually that your child is really going to genuinely feel that you are noticing them and that they matter, not that your rules are what matters. And you know none of this shaming or punishment or you know you're terrible for overreacting. It's kind of like, oh, it looks like this doesn't work for you. What else could work for you? I love that. I think it's really empowering.
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Christopher, my co author, tells the story of his son who built, along with his dad, I believe, a very fancy gaming computer, like they assembled all the parts, and it was a big project, and he was so proud of it, and he had it in his room, and they said, We're going to test this out and see how it works. And it didn't work. It was hard for him to sleep well, and so they moved it, they moved it into, I don't know, the office or the garage or something, and that's working. And it wasn't a punishment. It's collaborative.
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I This is not working for you, my darling son. It feels like it's it's not something that's good for our family to have in your room, or this game and adapt and let them know it's not it's not a punishment. It's we're figuring out what works for you and man us adults, we could use that too. We could use a little bit of I need to think about parenthood. I would love it absolutely.
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And when it comes to these really tough topics, like, I don't know, sex and drugs, bullying, any of that sort of stuff. How would you help a parent move beyond just saying, Don't do it, just because, because we need to not freeze and we need to be able to actually engage in conversations that are meaningful.
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It's so hard, isn't it, because I. In reality, our kids should not be using drugs and they should not be drinking alcohol. That is proven time and time again based on brain science and psychology that you know, exposing youth, youthful, young brains to these substances can limit their potential and raise their risk of addiction. So if I could wave my magic wand, I would not have any of these young people experimenting with drugs or alcohol. But this is a time of experimentation, and the brain is wired to crave novel, new experiences and to fit in at this age. So the conversation has to be more dynamic. But I believe coming to them with information about how the brain develops and how the brain works as a baseline. You know, I'm not saying you're never going to drink, I'm not saying you're never going to use marijuana, but I want you to understand why it would benefit you to wait and push that off for a while. And here's some of the information that I read that you might find interesting. So that science, I think, is a component of it.
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Another component would be making sure, as they say in the addiction inoculation, which is a fantastic book Jessica Leahy, making sure that they have tools to manage stress and discomfort that don't involve substances.
00:21:21.858 --> 00:21:43.239
Oh, yeah, yeah. So that that's what what Jessica Leahy, who is in addiction recovery herself and is a teacher and counselor for children who are struggling with addiction, she says so many times casual use becomes addiction when somebody has pain or discomfort that they don't otherwise know how to deal with.
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So if the thing you turn to is your glass of wine when you're stressed out with your husband as an adult, you're not dealing with the problem. It's the same for kids. So they're with other kids that are uncomfortable, and if there's a beer or whatever available, they're going to take it. So we have to give them those tools for stress management, we need to work with them to find ones that are effective, and letting them know that they're safe to talk about their feelings, so that if something is coming up instead of pushing it down, that doesn't become their relationship with substances, that the relationship with substances doesn't become Thank God, I finally feel better, which is what you'll hear from a lot of people who are struggling with addiction The first time they had the drink or the first drink, or the first time they tried the drug, they went better. And that's that's what we try to avoid with our kids.
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We need to help them find other ways to feel better and then talking and practicing terms and ways to say no to stuff. I mean, it sounds cheesy. We were growing up in the mid in the Midwest, in the United States, in the 80s, it was just say no, let's practice saying no. Well, that's not adequate, right? The same, yes, did you Yeah? And it didn't work for any of us, unfortunately, right? So it's more about like, coming up with answers like, well, for instance, I bought a drug testing kit from the pharmacy, and I have it in my cabinet, and it has been there for them eight years. I've never tested my children, but I say, here's a drug testing kit, and if I suspect that you've been using drugs, I will use it on you. But more importantly, you can tell your friends My mom will test me for drugs.
00:23:20.099 --> 00:23:24.559
She has in the cabinet.
00:23:20.099 --> 00:23:25.099
Great tip. Great tip. It's like, yes,
00:23:25.279 --> 00:23:54.819
and I'm known as a strict mom, and so my kids could say, you know my mom. Are you kidding me? Yeah, no, my mom will find out. You know her like having that reputation. You know, you can't concoct her reputation out of it, out of nowhere, but having that drug test there and telling them, you know, I'll use it because I'm trying to keep you safe as your mom, the whole thing is like letting them have an excuse, having that code that they can text you, that means I need you to come home so they can text you like, How's grandma doing?
00:23:54.819 --> 00:24:31.579
You can call them and say, I need you to come home right now, there's a problem, and pick them up. That works really well. The final thing, this is so hard for parents. So many parents will tell us, my kid would never drive intoxicated or under the influence because I have set them up with an app for ride share, or I've told them they can call me anytime. The problem is, the kids hear that, but they also know that if their parent finds out they were drinking or using drugs, they won't be able to go out to parties, they'll lose their phone, they'll lose the things that matter to them.
00:24:28.279 --> 00:25:14.700
So we're saying one thing, but we're doing another, and they listen to what we do. So there has to be an honest conversation about what will happen if they drink too much and they need help, and they call you, or if they've used a drug and they feel like they're in an unsafe situation, or if one of their friends has it's it has to be like, This is what I'll say, This is what I'll do, and this is what the consequences will be. Will that work? So that you'll call me, because I need you to call me first. Much. Oh, I like that. Yeah, yeah. When people, when the kids, know that they're not going to lose everything that's important to them, and even more deeply, that they're not going to be made to feel like bad people, they're more likely to reach out for support.
00:25:16.140 --> 00:25:44.920
That's so interesting in my consequences blog and the episode, we talked about making sure that they're clear about what the consequences are beforehand, and actually having a conversation about it and saying, Is this okay? I think I had made that final step of, is this what it would take for you to make sure that you did tell me, or you did call me, and it will be a no questions asked. Let's just get you out of there. Let's sort this problem out. Because this is the this is when the horrible things happen. Is when they feel that they can't tell you, they can't talk to you about something and
00:25:46.000 --> 00:26:03.000
interesting to talk to a 17 year old boy who had gotten in the car with someone who he knew had been drinking and using other drugs, who was driving, and this is a very smart boy, and two girls got in that car too, and he kept saying, I don't know why I did it. I don't know why I did it.
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It was stupid. It was stupid.
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And his parents kept saying it was stupid, it was just stupid.
00:26:05.940 --> 00:26:23.000
And I said, well, we need to go a little bit deeper, like I need to know in order to help other parents, I need to know why didn't you call the Uber that your dad pays for that's on your phone that your dad said you can use it anytime. I need to know why you didn't call your dad.
00:26:23.059 --> 00:26:38.839
Need to know why you didn't call a friend. I need to know why you didn't just pause and as he explained it, it was so much deeper than I ever would have thought. He was afraid his girlfriend was going to be mad at him if he didn't go with her, and she was getting in that car, he felt a need to protect her.
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He they were going to another party, and everyone was gone, and he didn't think the Uber was going to get there fast enough.
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His dad wouldn't have let him go to the next party. So he made the wrong choice, and that car crashed, and thank God they all survived. It was a horrible, horrible accident. Oh my gosh.
00:26:56.980 --> 00:27:10.680
But talking to him illuminated for me and for him, the fact that these decisions are not they're so much more than just stupid, which is how we want to phrase it. Yeah, peer pressure.
00:27:10.740 --> 00:27:13.380
He wasn't getting peer pressure.
00:27:10.740 --> 00:27:33.259
He was afraid for his girlfriend, who was making a bad choice. So that's a deeper conversation, and I don't know that he could have had that conversation with his own parents. So I thought, How do I make myself into the parent that if it were my child, we could have that conversation first so I could understand how to prevent that from ever happening?
00:27:34.220 --> 00:27:56.500
I love that, yeah, and it's interesting, because I think that post event conversation. So when something not hopefully as catastrophic as that, but when something's gone wrong, where they just drunk so much they were vomiting everywhere, or whatever. You know, that conversation afterwards to try and repair trust and build growth is is really difficult and really important, isn't it? Yeah, it
00:27:56.500 --> 00:28:14.400
feels like not only do we learn from it, in order to help our kid in the future. It's important in that our kids will often default when they've made a mistake to assuming we don't love them, yeah, and even if it's not,
00:28:14.400 --> 00:28:18.359
because they don't love themselves at that moment, they don't really love themselves. Do they the
00:28:18.359 --> 00:29:00.960
shame? They are ashamed, and then if they think we are ashamed or we have any sort of contempt for them, then they are going to shut down further, and you're only going to grow that divide. That doesn't mean that we have to be like, it's okay. You got in the car with someone who was drinking alcohol, that's fine. I love you. It's not this isn't the world we live in. You're going to be upset, you're going to be scared, you're going you're gonna feel how you feel, but to be able to do our own little bit of work there before the conversation happens to be like, What am I feeling? I'm terrified I almost lost my child, or I'm terrified that I'm going to lose my child. Okay?
00:28:56.619 --> 00:29:39.380
And that terror inside of me, that core fear is turning into anger, and then that anger is feeling a little bit like I'm contempt. I have contempt for this kid. I'm disgusted that he made that choice. So as you work that out within yourself, then you can go, okay, that's the cycle of emotions I'm going through and I'm processing. What do I want to present to this boy or this girl? I want to present how scared I was, how much I love them, and how deeply I want to make sure that they are safe in the future and that we want to solve a problem together.
00:29:36.799 --> 00:29:48.220
Okay, good. So I've gotten rid of the shame, I've gotten rid of the disgust, I've gotten rid of the rage, and now I can have a conversation that pause that time to process it alone or with a friend or with your partner.
00:29:49.000 --> 00:29:50.259
It makes all the difference,
00:29:50.500 --> 00:29:57.759
or just even writing it down, just kind of go through that whole process of trying to we've all been there where we've overreacted.
00:29:58.180 --> 00:29:59.920
The anger with teen boys can be really hard.
00:30:00.000 --> 00:30:11.700
Hard too, because there's they often seem so angry, so we have to be careful not to come to them in rages as well, because that's modeling that that's how we relate to each other, right?
00:30:12.839 --> 00:30:50.200
Yeah, and I love that point, because I remember talking to somebody quite some time ago who said that one of the reasons these boys end up in with knives and in gangs is because anger and rage are, for them, the only emotion that's acceptable, and they don't have the just the vocabulary and the depth. So how can parents help boys build that empathy and relational awareness when we've got this we still got this man box. We've still got this male emotional stoicism that's so deeply entrenched.
00:30:52.119 --> 00:31:30.619
You know, one of the biggest mistakes I think we've made in the last 10 to 20 years raising boys is in trying to get them not to be angry. And because we wanted them to be good men and be good to girls and not these big mean monsters, right? Which was a wonderful goal. We still have that. But anger is a healthy emotion. It is just the same as any as sadness. It's the same as as as heartbreak and longing and joy and envy, these are all their emotions are not good and they're not bad. You are going to feel angry as a teenager.
00:31:30.680 --> 00:31:34.700
That is part of it, and it is just like anything else.
00:31:34.700 --> 00:32:29.720
Learning how to drive a car, you have to learn how to drive your anger, how to manage it, how to feel it, to see it, and to look a little bit deeper at the anger. And it's because, like I said, there's there's this very standard man box, masculinity expectation over here, and then there's what we've been trying to do with boys, trying to help them be healthier. And they are often in conflict. As you mentioned, society outside wants to see excuse the language horniness and bravery and anger from boys, right? So bravery with sports, or bravery with, you know, running for student counselor, whatever, these are the things we reward. And when they have a cute girlfriend, or they're a real like Lady Killer, they're really able to pull a lot of hot girls, whatever it is we praise that we even if subconsciously we think it's happening, it's it's happening.
00:32:30.559 --> 00:32:41.500
So all of these things, the lust, the anger, the energy levels, these are all good.
00:32:37.400 --> 00:33:22.880
They're all okay. It's about our relationship with them. So teaching the boys to be in relationship with those feelings, to experience them, and then helping them contextualize them, process them. So I have one son that gets really angry when he's hungry, and oh my gosh, this child, he is next level hangry, right? And so we have been working on this since he was small to Okay, I understand that you're really angry that your sister, you know, like, breathed next to you in the backseat of the car, whatever it is, right?
00:33:18.000 --> 00:33:44.619
You're so angry that I'm chewing my gum too loud, or whatever it is. This is you're so it's so unfair. It's horrible. I'm hearing you, and you're really angry, and I get it. I wonder if you're hungry, and that's making these little things make you angrier, and it's not hunger, it's not hunger, it's never hunger, right? I'm like, Okay, let's just get you some food.
00:33:41.980 --> 00:34:36.440
You try. It doesn't work. Then let's figure out how to get your sister to, you know, breathe quieter. So we kind of had to practice that for years. And he's so good now at coming in the house and he will put his baseball bag down, and He will put His water jug down, all those metal water jugs. Every parent can relate. You know, whatever on the counter is so loud, and then I'll just look at him, and he'll go, I need to eat. Amazing. Yeah. So, so he's, he's learning to self regulate that, right? Yeah. So that can be the goal with so many things where it's like they get sometimes obsessive about a romantic conquest, and we think, oh my gosh, this is such creepy behavior, like he's obsessed with this person. And then it's like, you know that's what falling in love and crushes feel like. You get a little obsessed.
00:34:36.440 --> 00:35:01.440
We forget you. So it's like, I know you're just thinking about her all the time, she's really on your mind, but, and that is normal and sweet and healthy, but you know, it's important to also, you know, go hang out with your friends and go to the gym and whatever it is like having those conversations where those feelings are okay and not using words that will make him feel ashamed. Or just simply, like you don't
00:35:01.440 --> 00:35:14.099
get it, yes, steering away from the shame and just making sure that you're sort of helping them to identify. I have the same thing with my daughter, except that she just switches. She literally turns into a zombie, and she walks like this, and she can't have conversations or anything.
00:35:14.099 --> 00:35:16.860
And I have to say, I can see you're hungry. You can say, have you noticed?
00:35:16.860 --> 00:36:14.519
Or Christopher, my co author, taught me such an amazing tool, and he actually used it on me while we were writing the book, and that taught me how to use it better than if he than just, you know, having him tell me is he will say, I can imagine that feels, and then whatever it is. So I was, you know, I mentioned to you that we lost part of our home in a wildfire here in Southern California just at the same time that we were getting our book deal and starting to write our book, and then, you know, it just those little things and and I would get like, well, I've got so much on my plate, and I got so much a handle on, Christopher would say, I can imagine that might be really overwhelming. And I was like, it is overwhelming. And he's not saying you're just overwhelmed. Yeah, he's he's not telling me. He's saying, I'm guessing this is what you feel, and he's empathizing, but he's not telling me what to do or how to handle it. Just is
00:36:14.519 --> 00:37:03.480
like, oh yes, he's climbed into the pit with you, and he's sitting with you going, Oh, I can imagine how that might fit. Yes, I love that. That's kind of recognition, validation, really wonderful. I love that phrase, thank you. And I, one of the things I got wrong in the past is my daughters have laughed at me on this podcast about it was when I had I suddenly panicked about pornography, and I was dropping my daughter at a party and a sleepover, and I just said, so pornography, it's not, it's not, it's not what it looks like in the thing, in the pictures. And my daughters were just going what you know. And I think we do this, we panic, we don't really know how to have these conversations. And obviously now I'm much, much more fluent with my daughters.
00:37:03.599 --> 00:37:18.960
It's, you know, better to have 60 conversations that are a minute rather than 160 minute conversation, as we know. But what are your thoughts about finding the right words, finding the right time? What age? When should this start?
00:37:19.079 --> 00:37:23.119
So this is something that takes a minute.
00:37:23.300 --> 00:39:14.400
Okay, how do I say this? I think our conversations about pornography begin in a way when our children are very small in that consent, sexuality, body, stuff and pornography are all one ball that exists all together in our society. Okay, yes, I would like to take the pornography out of that. But we are here. Here it is. So when they're small, if you're listening and you have younger kids, even if you didn't do when they were little, just talking about their body parts. When you're in the shower, make sure that you clean your vulva the way I taught you. Make sure that you're washing your your penis and your testicles like I know it's cringy, but that conversation using the right words, using the right words, and I think as long as you use the right words most of the time, it's okay to say your wiener or whatever, like it just, I don't think we need to be hard and fast about it. But in general, making sure that that you're saying, you know, when you're in the shower, you need to make sure that your penis is getting clean and your testicles and you're soaking up really well. So having that conversation and just talking about it every once in a while and bringing it up and saying, you know, as you get older, you'll notice that this some kind of funny thing happens with your testicles. And here's why it is. It's, you know, it's puberty. It happens around age 10, but everybody's different, and short conversations, like you said. Now, what does that have to do with pornography? It has to do with the fact that your kid has learned that there are proper names for their body parts, that you're not ashamed in talking about them, that the while they are private, and that you are to protect your body in all ways. They're private.
00:39:14.460 --> 00:39:24.920
They're not a secret. It's not a secret. And you can talk to me about anything, but also then you can have that conversation about privacy. Who should see your penis? You know? Who?
00:39:24.920 --> 00:39:27.440
Yeah, who? Who should be
00:39:27.500 --> 00:40:02.460
allowed to talk to you about your penis? Those kind of conversations are all the sex and the consent and the anatomy all go together. And then when it comes time for them to be online, less supervised, then we have a conversation about, okay, you know, I've always talked to you about your penis and or your vagina, your vulva. I've always talked to you about, we've always been open about that stuff. Well, I want you to know that there are something online that some adults look at that is not appropriate for children, and it does show people. Private parts.
00:39:58.900 --> 00:40:21.199
You know, the men showing their penises and just having the conversation, just really forthright. And you might be curious about seeing that, and I understand why you'd be curious, but it is stuff that's made for adults, by adults, and actually can be harmful for you to see as a kid. So if you see something, just know, I know it's there.
00:40:21.199 --> 00:40:37.460
You know it's there, come to me and we're going to talk about what it is happening. Yeah, because they're already, they already know that you that you'll, you'll talk about a penis. It's fine. They are. They already know that you're not ashamed. They already know that you know the materials online.
00:40:38.179 --> 00:40:41.199
So they know, and they know that you can they can come to you.
00:40:41.199 --> 00:41:24.619
I'm not going to take away your tablet if you see it, but we do need to talk about it and figure out how to make sure you're not seeing it a lot, or even at all, because it's you know, at age 12, that's not appropriate for you. The other thing about pornography is a lot of kids are turning to pornography to learn how to have sex, or how to be a sexy person, or how to be sexual person. So it's important to tell them pornography is not the same as sex between two people in the real world, it's something that looks a little bit like it, but it's not for the same reason. In real life, here are our family's values.
00:41:24.619 --> 00:41:45.579
Now, your family's values are going to be different than mine or or this family's, but in our family, here's how we think about sexuality. We think, you know, it's two grown ups wanting to connect, talking about what feels good to them, connecting in that very, very special way.
00:41:41.079 --> 00:42:08.760
And it can grow love and connection, and it's but it's an experience where everybody's having fun and enjoying themselves. And you know, whatever you have that conversation, and then you say, but in pornography, there are two people who are being paid to pretend that they feel that for each other, and they're being paid to pretend that they're giving each other pleasure. That actual is not, actually is not really happening in that video.
00:42:08.760 --> 00:42:22.820
So if you were to try to learn about sex from that pornography, you wouldn't really be learning about sex. So that kind of language can be really helpful, because those address the issues that the kids are facing.
00:42:20.719 --> 00:42:22.820
They're curious what is porn?
00:42:22.820 --> 00:42:51.760
They're curious about bodies, and they're curious about how people have sex. Another thing is a lot of times, kids want to see material that teaches them how to be attractive and how to make someone want to have sex with them. When they're older teens, especially. And we have a friend that came to me and said, What do I do? My, my, my daughter really wants to, like, see how that works, but obviously I don't want her to see porn. And I'm so worried.
00:42:49.539 --> 00:42:58.960
And I was like, I don't you guys could, like, watch an episode of bridgerton, because then you can say these are actors, and we all know they're pretending and they're not actually having sex.
00:42:56.619 --> 00:43:14.340
You know, this depends on the age and and and you can see like they show consent, and why does she like him? You can have conversations about the whole big picture together. So that's an option too, and that way you're giving them something in lieu of pornography. You know,
00:43:15.239 --> 00:43:32.960
I absolutely love having that opportunity to have conversations around things that you're watching. It can be a bit cringey some sometimes, you know, if you're not used to it, but using these opportunities to have those conversations can be really effective. I guess if you're a mum, I mean, did you ever talk to your boys much about it? My
00:43:32.960 --> 00:44:57.820
husband did not talk to them about it. And I know that that seems wild, but he you know, at the time when they were growing up, he was working so much. He worked in television productions. It was all productions. He was often traveling and gone a lot, so it was really me in the car or on the walk or just hanging out with my kids, watching movies, doing those kinds of conversations. Now I'm sure they might I'm sure they have talked to him about that stuff, especially as they've gotten older, but mostly it was kind of a, like you said, 61 minute conversations where they'd make, like a wiener joke or something in the car, right? And then I'd be like, you know, either I'm gonna go along with it, or I'm gonna be like, yes, but we know that penises are actually private, and it's not really a joke that's, you know, like, or some way of bringing up, you know, something a little bit factual. And then they won't they naturally also ask me, where do babies come from? How are babies made? And I followed that classic advice of, you know, the biological and then you add more information as they ask more questions, and as they get older, you add more information. So we had those conversations as they got older, they acted like they hated it because they're supposed to do and they probably did. But you know, an example of one more recently as they've gotten older is I've told them the proper way to put on a condom,
00:44:58.239 --> 00:45:01.619
and they say, you. We know. We know
00:45:01.619 --> 00:45:44.619
they did have comprehensive sex ed in their school, thank goodness. But I would say, well, here's what you don't know. You probably don't know that you know talking about the ways not to get the semen to spill. Sorry that this has become an R rated podcast, but these are conversations we need to have when a man has ejaculated, and there is semen in the condom, and it's there at the tip, if at the reservoir, it's collected there, if you if the man remains in the sex position, in there penetrated, it can spill out the back, and someone can get pregnant or can spread STIs. So you have to hold on to the base and then withdraw like, and my children are like, Oh,
00:45:48.099 --> 00:45:52.179
I'm like, Okay, I'm done. Had that conversation tick done, but
00:45:53.079 --> 00:46:37.880
I don't know if anyone else was ever going to tell them that. And people don't get pregnant and catch STIs using condoms, so we need to talk about it. So I'll just be like, I'm the worst. I'm so cringy. It's terrible. The other thing is, with my older teens, my 17 year old and I watched too hot to handle, which is a horrible reality show together, and we were laughing, and it was silly, but I would say things like, Why do you think this guy has no idea how to have a relationship with a woman that's not sexual, like that's an important, great question. Or, why do you think this girl is so this young woman is so desperate to physically connect with this guy? What's that desperation?
00:46:34.280 --> 00:46:41.679
And what are the warning signs that this is a relationship that Maya is not going to be healthy.
00:46:41.860 --> 00:46:53.920
And just saying that, that that, yes, it's cringy to watch, too hot to handle with your teenager, but we laughed 99% of the time, and then 1% of the time, I'm giving him healthy sexuality
00:46:53.920 --> 00:46:57.519
conversations.
00:46:53.920 --> 00:47:32.719
My daughter started university just a few weeks ago, and they've had lots of conversations about things like consent. And she said, What was wonderful is they actually talked about, what does a good relationship look like, what does it feel like? What does it sound like? And what I've read is that a lot of boys wish that their parents would have more conversations with them about that sort of stuff, rather than just that. I mean, obviously we need to go through the nitty gritty, but taking opportunities wherever they come up to actually say, Why do you think they're doing that on and then giving your your way of seeing it is so useful, and because they don't have those conversations with their mates.
00:47:32.840 --> 00:48:03.719
Yes, they don't. They don't. Well, sometimes they do. And that's what we want more of. We were the goal, right? We'd love to have a guy have our 16 year old tell his 16 year old friend that doesn't seem like a healthy relationship. I mean, imagine that's the goal, right? That they can support each other that way. But yeah, with little girls, we watch so much, we consume so much media when they're little and as they grow up, that's all about love. You know, you watch the Rapunzel movie, and there's this man and this man, and how does she feel?
00:48:00.179 --> 00:48:43.480
And how do Why is she and but with boys, it's like we watch something, and if there's a relationship, we kind of ignore it. And that's the opposite of what we should be doing. We got to talk about relationships when they come up. And actually Christopher, my co author, in his boys groups that he leads, they tell him frequently, I really need to talk to somebody about relationships, because I don't know what I'm doing. Yeah, they want to talk about their feelings. They want to talk about what it means to be a man, which I always thought would be way too conceptual for teenagers, something they bring up with their group leaders and his men boys groups all the time. And they want to talk about love and being vulnerable with partners. They want that.
00:48:43.719 --> 00:48:44.440
Wow,
00:48:44.800 --> 00:48:47.320
a lot of films.
00:48:44.800 --> 00:49:26.599
When I spoke to Joanna Finkelstein, who's written a book about sexism and sensibility, she said, You know, so many of these films that the basically the female is, you could just transplant her with a sexy land lamppost, and that's fine, you know, it's an action film, but the problem is that you're not giving boys an opportunity to see how this sort of romance thing plays out. So yeah, I love that you're saying that actually, that's a good thing to introduce. And you know, in terms of timing, the things we've talked about are things like car journeys, when you're moving, when you're walking, you're doing something else, maybe making food, like when they get the munchies late at night. What are your tips?
00:49:27.320 --> 00:49:34.460
Well, yeah, we love Jerry Seinfeld has a term called Garbage Time, and we love to talk about Garbage Time.
00:49:34.639 --> 00:50:01.380
Garbage Time is the opposite of quality time. It is when you're taking out the trash and one of you makes a joke and the other one laughs and you're talking about nothing. I mean, yes, you and I have talked this whole hour about a lot of big stuff, but the way we get there is those conversations about nothing, about sitting there when it's 11pm and he's in the kitchen and he's eating ice cream. You want to go to bed, if you can make it down, sit down.
00:49:57.820 --> 00:50:13.980
Get a. Spoon, have some bites of ice cream and just be like, just talk about nothing, because nothing so often becomes something, because we all need to feel safe in order to open up. And our kids are no exception to that.
00:50:14.760 --> 00:50:32.960
Yeah, I love that. And finally, I've got a lot of parents who've got tweens, if you've got a parent of a teen boy say, 1013, what could they do now to set the stage for the rest of the adolescence being positive, a positive relationship, and then feeling safe?
00:50:34.460 --> 00:51:16.920
Well, we really love hugging. We love to tell parents now, not every kid wants to be hugged all the time. Some kids are more sensitive about touch, but whatever way that you connected physically with that child when they were little that was meaningful to them, high fives or holding hands, keep doing it. Keep it up. Don't force them, but don't assume they don't want it. They may adopt a bit of a bristly exterior, but you can say, Oh, you're I love you. Can I give you a hug? Now with moms and boys, it's easy. I just go like, Oh, they're so cute. Let me squeeze you. Just squeeze them and I'll squeeze his muscles.
00:51:14.400 --> 00:52:20.960
Look at your muscles. They love to hear about their muscles. So it's like, oh, squeeze you, my little boy and and it's cringy, but it's in the mom, but they like it. And, you know, I like to model consent, of course, still, and just be like, can I give you a hug? Do you need a hug? But in reality, they do still need hugs, and they do still need that. There's something so special about sitting side by side on the couch, and, I don't know, watching a show, but not just disconnecting, you know, sitting next to them and giving them a little shoulder nudge, or putting your arm around their shoulder and like things that you can continue to as they get older, so that they still have affection and connection and opening up with them a little bit more about your own feelings as they get older. Can also be so crucial, if you are a dad or a man in a boy's life, this goes times 100 to say to a 1011, 1213, year old boy, I had a rough day at work. It was so hard, so and so made me mad.
00:52:20.960 --> 00:52:29.239
This thing really bummed me out, and I was so I'm so excited to get home and just see you.
00:52:25.460 --> 00:52:57.340
Here's what I'm gonna do, so that I can feel better. So you're modeling. Dad had a rough day at work. It's not my job to make you feel better, but he likes being with me. And then it's like, dude, lots. What if we just watched a movie? What if we got some snacks and we watched a movie, and I can forget about my bad day. You're talking about the fact that you're not perfect, and you're talking about the fact that you're going to try and manage your bad feelings, and you're including your kid in that sense of connection. We're connected, and that's going to help me.
00:52:57.400 --> 00:53:42.940
It's going to help me feel better by being connected to you and to your mom and to grandma and whoever that's going to help me feel better, to show them how connections can be healing. And then I personally allow myself to get in the mud a little bit with middle schoolers. I allow them to make potty jokes and be a little bit crass. For me, I know my children were not inappropriate or objectifying with it, and so we would have kind of our crass jokes. Like, this sounds terrible, but I'll be like we did a lot of that's what she said, or that's what he said, That's what she said. And my kids thought it was hilarious, but it set the tone that we can talk Yes, you know,
00:53:42.940 --> 00:54:08.820
yes, there's nothing. There's nothing that's off limits. You can have jokes about things. Joanna, what a brilliant conversation. Thank you so much. I really love the book. I think it's very well worth any of the listeners who resonated with this buying the book. It's great for dipping in and out, so you don't have to kind of read it all the way through. You say, Oh, I'm going to actually look at this. And it's very easy to access. If people want to find you, what's the best way for them to reach you?
00:54:10.079 --> 00:54:21.920
Well, I have a Tiktok that's by Joanna Schroeder that I'm really trying to do every day. And wow, is that hard, but, man, I'm trying.
00:54:16.619 --> 00:54:49.420
And if you want a daily dose, I have a sub stack too, called zooming out. That's that's more long form. But Christopher, my co author, Christopher pepper, has a beautiful substack where you can get a little bit of this advice three times a week. It's called Teen Health today, and I'll give you those links so that you can put them in the show notes. We have a website, but it's mostly just book promotion. But I would love for people to engage with us on social media and and follow at least Christopher on sub sack man every day. He has these amazing
00:54:50.320 --> 00:54:56.019
and he's also on LinkedIn. I think that's where I first came across him.
00:54:52.300 --> 00:54:58.300
Probably, yeah, he does some really good stuff on LinkedIn.
00:54:56.019 --> 00:54:58.960
I've seen, seen some very good material. There
00:54:58.960 --> 00:55:25.039
he is. So. Good at his as an educator and someone running boys groups, he is so good at just sharing relatable Tips from an educator and from an expert. And then I think you might like my substack because it's kind of a lot of diving deep. I just did a substack post about the old Budweiser commercials, where the guys would say was, I remember those ads by you. And how about the role of male friendship and how it's changed. That's
00:55:25.039 --> 00:55:26.659
brilliant.
00:55:25.039 --> 00:55:41.679
Thank you so much. Joanna. If you found this useful, go on, send it to someone you know right now. Just stop and send it. You can reach me on teenagersuntangled@gmail.com you can find my on my website, which is www.teenagersuntangled.com.
00:55:37.400 --> 00:55:49.300
And I have a sub stack. It's teenagersuntangled.substack.com and that's it. Have a great week. I hope you found this very useful, bye, bye for now.
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