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Rachel, hello and welcome to teenagers untangled the audio hug for parents going through the teen years, where I use research from experts and our own experience to cover everything we need to know about raising decent young people. I'm Rachel Richards journalist and mum of two teens and two bonus daughters. I'm on summer break from doing weekly recordings. So here's another episode that's one of the most downloaded of all time. I really enjoyed re listening to it, and I thought it covered the topic pretty well, but I've added a couple of extra points at the end to update the things I personally learned in the past years of raising teens and making this podcast that includes the simple but powerful thing we need to remember about what drives teenagers and what we should notice about our teens that will make all the difference to our connection now on with the show now, consequences, consequences. So we've talked before about setting rules that your teen will follow, and this is getting to the nitty gritty about how you deal with a teen who's behaving badly and making poor choices. And I see a huge amount of parents struggling with this, and they, you know, they'll put a consequence in place, and then the teen might do it or might not. And there are some parents who've said, you know, it doesn't matter what I do. They just don't do what I tell them to do. It's really frustrating.
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I read a summary of a really interesting piece of research published in the educational and developmental psychologist journal. They studied the effect of parenting style on adolescent behavior problems like defiance and substance use or depression anxiety. And the study involved over 1400 13 and 14 year olds, so a reasonable number, and they found that behavioral problems tended to exist more in teens who had low persistence, so they just could, just didn't keep going at all, high negative reactivity, and who were hyperactive, so really, really active kids, and that's even kids who had warm, loving parenting that was very connected. But here's the interesting bit, those problem behaviors were far, far worse when they were combined with lower parental warmth and lower monitoring. So we know, in a nutshell, you get, you do get your child. And I always say that I was sent the kids I was sent to stop me being smug, because, you know, sometimes, you know, you have a kid and they're really compliant and they're easy to manage, and you think, oh, go me. And then, and then the other child just isn't there. They're highly reactive.
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And so yes, but the truth is, the we know that the warmth of the parenting and the monitoring are critical, yeah, and it can make a massive difference to the child's life. It's
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the whole nurture nature debate, isn't it? How much is which? But you know the nurture side is, is crucial?
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Yes. Now coming to to consequences, which people love to today, they'll talk about them a lot like, what consequences should I use? This is based on something called behaviorism. And behaviorists is a document doctrine where they believe that behavior can be changed through a process called operant conditioning. And in this view, it's the environment that determines a child's behavior. So negative behaviors are the result of bad training, and if we apply the right consequences, we get appropriate behaviors. And this is this came out in the 1960s when they were using rats and pigeons. And to show that, you know, you can conduct these experiments, and each time you repeat them, they come out the same. The problem is, we're not actually raising black teenagers. So, you know, it might, it might be that when they're quite little and they don't have the emotional and intellectual ability to see beyond a certain level, then maybe that might work. But what, as every parent will tell you, if you use a consequence that doesn't, isn't quite right, it might work, the, you know, one or two times, and then it stops working. So what's happened?
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Yeah, and
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how you, if you, if you think consequences are helpful and good, then how you put them in places is crucial.
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Isn't if you do them from a, you know, wholehearted this is, this is a helpful and explain it properly, and then it can be really good if you're, if you're doing it from a place of panic that you feel your kid is kind of going off the rails, whatever that looks like, and you just go, I need to, I need to control. I need to control. And you put in a whole load of consequences in panic that's way less likely to have an effect.
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Yes, because they'll just run for the
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hills. Yes. And I love that point, because really what we want to do is we want to try and identify the specific thing that needs changing, and focus on the issue, not the person. So it's trying to step away from, you know, oh, so, for example, a woman said, Oh, my son hadn't answered these three questions that were given to him in homework. So I've taken away his Xbox and said he can have it back when he's done it. And you know that, you can say, well, that will work. But really is it your job to try and force that teenager, I don't know how old he was, but try and force him to do homework set by somebody else? Or would it be more effective to say, is there a reason why you are not doing that homework? Because he might have a good reason, really good reason, and it depends
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what you mean by.
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Work like a consequence works.
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What does that even mean? Does it mean that you've put the fear of God into them and they're terrified, and they're going to just do what you say because you've either made some awful threat, or you're a fear you know, you're a frightening person, and they're frightened.
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That's not going to set them up for good life. Or are they just, you know, sticking their middle finger up and going, No, I'm not going to do that, because you said so. So you know, we have to connect with them first, which is what we always talk about. We connection is key. And then you can put guidelines up if they're if they're relevant and if they resonate. But before you've done that, if you only put consequences out, you'll alienate them.
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Yes, they won't, yes, because eventually they'll say, Well, I don't, I don't have to no and you then you have to up the ante every single time. And parents tend to have more frequent and more intense conflicts when they believe their teenagers bad behavior is has malicious intentions to hurt. Yes, so, so separate yourself from their poor behavior, what you consider to be poor behavior, and then look at what, what do we what's going wrong here? Yeah. So one of the best consequences is natural consequences, which you bring up all the
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time, yeah, yeah.
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They're way better, and they're just organic, aren't they? So if you you know, a happens, then B happens, yes, like, I don't know, the classic homework one, you know, don't get involved in that. If they haven't done their homework, then they'll probably be in trouble in school, and then they'll learn from that.
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And if they have to, you know, do extra homework or stay behind after school, then that's that's a natural consequence. They probably will hate that. So hopefully that will be enough.
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So
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a lot of parents will say, Yeah, but hang on a second, if I just leave my teenager to do their homework and they don't do it, then they fail, and then, you know, that's a disaster. So at what point do I start saying, Okay, so my answer to that would be to have ongoing discussions with them about, you know, what they're trying to achieve, and why the homework matters, and how doing it makes a difference to their life, rather than just saying, right, if you don't do the homework this world, yeah, it's going
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to happen. And it can be, is it a one off, or is it a is it a longer pattern? You know, you have have those conversations. You know, you can nudge. You can we can always nudge because nobody wants to do their homework. I know. Well, maybe if you do but none of I do.
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No, no. So it's all about. What we're trying to do is look down the line and say, you know, if I'm going to implement consequences, what am I trying to achieve? I'm trying to achieve an adult at the end of this who can make good decisions for themselves. If I take away all the power for them to make decisions, then am I?
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What am I doing that job properly? No, yes, I'm not. So I need to involve them in the process of why thinking this through and this behavior that they're exhibiting isn't helping them?
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Yes, absolutely.
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Again, it's always an opportunity to look at ourselves. Why is it so triggering what you know, the the actual behavior they're doing? Why is it so why is it so difficult for us to sit and watch it? Is it because it's actually life threatening and dangerous? Then yes, of course, we have to step in. Or is it perhaps triggering something in us that, you know, if my kid is doing well in school, I feel I'm a better parent. What's that?
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Maybe unpacking that all of those kinds of things is an opportunity.
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And so coming back to the natural consequences, for example, if the house rule is that, you know, the parents only wash clothes that are placed in the hamper, and then the teenager ends up with dirty clothes if they don't, well, fine. You know, natural consequences. We had
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one of them last night, and her son gave me his P me his PE kits at 1030 and said, I need that for tomorrow. And I went, well, that's not happening. If you'd given it to me at seven, it would be fine, yes, ohh,
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machine. Yes, yeah. So, so how do we when we do have to select consequences?
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Because it does happen, they need to be logical. And what I mean by that is, to be effective, a consequence needs to be short term. So if you make it too long, so I'm going to take away TB rights for the next week. Then, you know, first of all, I mean, I've had this with when I was teaching parenting to parents of younger kids. I just say, Please don't put in place something that you can't keep, because I tell you, by day two, you're going to want them on in front of that TV, so don't use that one. So you know you have to think of these consequences when you're not in the heat of the moment. And they need to be short enough to focus the mind and not too long, because if they're too long, then they won't you won't be able to be consistent with it. It needs to be task specific. So you know, here's what you do to get this right, or here's what you do to make up for doing. So you know, if you broke someone's fence, then you know you need to go and fix the fence, or you need to pay for it. So you know you need to be very specific about what it is, and then think about what it is that your child really values. Because if you say to your child, right, I'm going to take away the phone, and they may go, Yeah, okay, have the phone because they don't really care about the phone that much.
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It's something else, yeah. So you need to this is why connecting with your child, your teenager, understand. Them, or understanding where their values lie and what really matters to them is worth doing? Yes, because you need for them and you need to just direct their attention. We're not trying to punish them. Punishment doesn't work.
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No, it doesn't work.
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And I think most teenagers, if you if you have a good connection with them, that's why that's always the first point of call. And I don't mean that you have to be best friends with them, but that you're able that they feel seen and heard and understood for who they are.
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That's, that's connection. And they can have conversation with you about, yeah, they can. You can fall out with them. You can think they're annoying. They can think you're annoying. You don't have to be best mates, but connection is the first port of call, and then, and then there's a respect that becomes, comes automatically within that, and then you can sit and have conversations like, you know, I'm worried about your safety.
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The reason I don't want you coming back at this time of night is because I'm worried about your safety. I think it's too late. And they They're not stupid. They will understand that. They might in the moment go, Well, I'm finer, but somewhere they'll get it. And if you do it in a from a loving, caring place, and then ask them, What do you think? What? What's your opinion of that? How do you I'm worried about it. I think this time, what do you think would be a reasonable time? And kind of have a discussion, yes, yes. And, and then make you if you have to make, you know, the decision in the end, because you're the adults, then have to do that, and they might not go, great. What a great idea, mom, yes,
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because the relationship with a teenager needs to have all the qualities of a relationship you might have with a co worker, yeah, with some love, with what, with a lot of love, obviously, and and this person, you've got to keep safe.
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So there is a safety element that's involved. But again, explaining it, rather than just saying this is, you know, this is not acceptable.
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Yes, I remember when my when my son had awful back problems, and he was really resisting doing his really boring physio. We had, I had to put consequences in place, and I rarely use them. But if I could pick that, this is, this is your health, this is, this is non negotiable for me. And we tried to do it in a way that was worse, but he still resisted. So then there was a consequence in place, which involved the Wi Fi, yeah, but there were lots of chances to not go to that place, but work out what, what are your non negotiables, what really is important? And then, then stick to your guns, yes, but have a conversation about, and I love what you're
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saying there, because actually what happened was you build happened was you built up to the harder consequences. So for example, that's happened with me, with the with the phones, with my daughters. The reason they're so compliant about handing phones over to me is because it's been an iterative process where I've said, You've been on that phone for two hours. You know what's happened? Tell me some really great stories, and they can't tell me anything. And I say, well, in those two hours, you could have been out, you know, playing with the dogs, or you could have gone and practiced the piano or something, you know, something that was more wholesome. And slowly I've gone back in again and said, Okay, so now how long have you been on it? And without nagging them, asking them questions, and eventually I've said, you know, I think you need a bit of help, because it's hard, and I find it hard. And then they've gone, yeah, can you take it away? Yes.
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So it's about sort of edging towards helping them see that this decision needs to be made.
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They're not making a decision at the moment, or they're making a poor decision. And and how, you know, show them how you would manage.
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And ideally, you get buy in, because you're having a conversation about it, and you're giving them options, and they're coming with their point of view. And if you have buy in, then it's, it's really, it's really much better place you might not get buy in. And then, then you have to make the choices you have to
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make. Yeah, yeah. And so, for example, if they, if they don't want to go to bed, you know, at night, but they, they're struggling to get up in the morning, well, you say, right. So you know, you know you have to go to bed an hour earlier because you can't get up in the morning. Or, you know, they bicycle without their helmets on you. And you say, it's really dangerous. So rather than say, I'm going to take away your phone, you say, the bikes gone for a week, just so you can have a think about what you know. Let's talk about why that's so important, oh,
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the bedtime thing.
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I'm thinking like, my eldest goes to bed too late, but it's, that's, that's his decision. So I'm not going to wake you up in the morning. You'll miss your bus.
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Yeah, so now you're making the natural consequence. It's not even something you have to actually deal with. He's got to fix it himself. I
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find that really hard, because I still wake him up. Come
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on, ideally, you'll get there eventually. So we need to clearly identify the behavior that has to change, and this is kind of similar to the resolutions. So if we think about how hard it is for us to make changes to our behavior, think about that when you're trying to tell your child or your teenager, look, I'm not happy about this. It's not going to just suddenly happen, right?
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We've got to be reasonable, reasonable about this, and think about how we can help them. So first of all, that we need buy in. So is this a problem? Yes, it is a problem. And why is it a problem? So be prepared to have a discussion. Be prepared to have a bit of what they call back chat. Yeah, we covered.
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We've covered in Episode 12.
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Yeah. So if they, if you feel like they're pushing back, this isn't a bad thing. No, it's was.
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What's happened is they've engaged. They say, Well, I think this. And you say, Okay, well, let's unpack
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there. And it's really, really important that we allow them to do that, because in all other areas of life, we're really encouraging our teens to talk and question everything and be dynamic and not just put up with whatever.
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But, you know, go for it. And yet, in our homes, we're going, well, I don't want you answering back. I don't want your I don't want your I only want your opinion when I agree with it.
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And blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, which is missing a massive opportunity to allow them to say what they think. Yes, but you can be respectful in it as well.
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You know, you can have your boundaries,
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yes. And when you have someone that's a reactive teen. I mean, I've, I've had a reactive I've had a couple of really reactive teens, and it's about, rather than saying this, you're a terrible person for being that way, it's about saying this behavior needs some moderation, and, you know, we've got time, so let's try and figure out so and when you try a consequence, or you try to work with them to fix it. It's not going to happen immediately, so don't think that. And so, you know, with my daughter, who now cleaning her room and everything, this didn't happen over enough, you have to be slow and steady and keep going back in, keep going back in and talking to them about it and accepting that they're not going to be perfect straight away
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or whatever. And I love that point of separating the behavior from the person, like I always say, man, you know, I love you unconditionally, and I really don't like that behavior. Yes, it's separate, yes.
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So coming back to the CO the the consequences when you're setting them, explain the restriction limits, time limit it. So say, you know this is what's going to happen, and here's why, and here's how long, and here's how you get it back. So just be very, very clear with them, because otherwise it's really they feel like everything's been taken away from them. They don't really understand what the parameters are if you're going to use that and you have to be fair and consistent with it.
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Yeah,
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and then they're just doing something for the sake of getting their Xbox back, and then you've missed an opportunity.
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But also, what's fascinating is, if you have seen some behavior, and you say this is a real problem, and you discuss it with them, let them have a go at coming up with what the consequence should be, because you may be shocked. Yes, quite often they come up with something that's far more severe than you than you might have thought of
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mine. Have started to go because I have three and they're, you know, different ages. Oh, if that was my kid, I do that, that, that, and I'm like, Really, wow,
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exactly, exactly.
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Well, I'm the parent here, and I'm not going to do that. Okay?
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So you can keep your fingernails. I'm not going to pull them out. And it's important to understand you're not going to stop your child from being angry or frustrated.
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This is a feeling, as you say all the time, you they can't help their feelings. It's about identifying them and thinking, Okay, why are those happening?
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Because we again, coming back to we're trying to create, slowly, create, an adult who can work through why they disagree with something, why they're behaving a certain way, and why that could be an issue,
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yeah, and that they're loved for the whole of them. So I think a lot of us have experienced because it's a generational thing, you know, Oh, don't be angry, especially the girls. And that's a whole pass of your person that has been kind of pushed away. And you know, psychologically, we know that that's that's quite unhealthy. So if we can stay with our kids when they are angry, we don't have to accept all of the behavior, but there that they have a feeling that I am being angry and I'm still being seen and heard and respected for who I am, that is huge. That's really empowering
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and empathize with the anger. You know what?
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What is, you know, I can see that you feel really angry.
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What's beneath it? Yeah, how?
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How? How do we help you calm down? Yeah,
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and they probably won't. They won't know in the moment, but you can talk about it later. No,
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absolutely.
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And, you know, rather than just putting a consequence in saying, okay, so what happened there?
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You were shouted at me. So that's it. You can walk away. I did it with my daughter the other day. I said, I hear that you're angry. I completely understand that you're angry.
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You don't agree with me. That's completely fine, and I really don't like the way you're talking to me. So I'm going to go and I'm going to wait and we're going to talk about this later.
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So what about if the consequences simply aren't working, right? So this is, this can be painful sometimes because, you know, people are sitting there going, Yes, but it doesn't work. Yes, yes, right? Is the length of time too long, you know, because has your child lost interest and said, You know, I can't win. Is or that they basically think, Oh, well, I've they got used to not having whatever it is that you've taken away from them. Is the time frame so long that your child they can't possibly succeed. Are they pretending that it doesn't matter to them?
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Because the teenagers not going to say, Oh yeah, that really matters to me, because they'll know that, yeah, right. So just don't just be consistent, yes, but there are counterproductive punishments, and the American Academy. To me, a pediatrician states that corporal punishment is ineffective at teaching discipline. Taking away healthy outlets is not a good idea. So I have seen parents saying, oh, you know, he's on this football team. You know, should I take that away? Just that's not really, I know that's something that they really care about, but this is your taking away their personal development and their self worth. So you can sit them down and say, I'd really love to take that away from you, because I know how much it means to you, but I know how much it means to you, and I I'm much more interested in your self development than I
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am, yeah. Plus, you're part of a team.
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Yeah, exactly.
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So. So yes, it's talking about, you know, being clear with them why you're not going to take that away because you because, actually, at the end, all you care about is them, and don't eliminate all privileges, because, again, they've got nothing less to lose. Yeah, then they're just, they just give up.
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So if it's not working, prepare the relationship. Yeah, and are you? Are you doing
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it from a place of panic, because you feel that you know the world is shifting under or the carpets being pulled from under your feet, or can't find the right expression, you know, I mean, you panicking because you feel that you know you're losing control, and where's this going to end, and where's your team going to end up, and what's going to happen? Because they'll pick that up on that. They'll feel that, and that is not a wholehearted place to be making consequences
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from. No so what we need to do is, you talk about it all the time, I talk about it all the time. It's something I've grown into, which is this connectedness is everything. So if we've got to the point where the teenager is simply not listening to anything you're saying, they are out in the streets doing whatever they want, you have to completely stop and say, I need to repair this relationship, whatever it takes, and make it clear to them that that's your wholehearted focus, and that you care about that person inside more than any of this other stuff. You need to sort of shrink the world down and just say all I really care about is like, Who are you and where did this go wrong? I'm sorry. They
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will care, yes, because we, we know we love our parents, even the ones that are, you know, doing awful, you know, murderers, people still love their parents. That's, it's not about that. It's, it's there they're hurting. And we can, we can open up the conversation, and if they don't want to talk to you, then write them a letter, or, you know, pop a couple of, you know, I don't know. So let's go for hot chocolates. We don't have to talk, but just spend a bit, little bit of time so you step by step, can build up a relationship again.
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And just make it clear that what you care about is none of the other stuff that you seem to because I think quite often, teenagers think that you care about stuff that doesn't matter to them or isn't important, and that what you really care about is who's inside there and how they're feeling, because that's everyone wants to be seen. Yes, absolutely.
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So if it's like their friends that you're worrying about that they're getting into the wrong crowd, like, you know, empathize with it. You know, I see why you like your mates. They seem really fun. They seem really wild, or whatever. I get you want to hang out with them. I'm, I'm really worried. Can you tell me about it so you kind of opening it up, rather than judging it,
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yes, exactly, and showing that you care about them, not that you care about their but you know what they're doing with the other people.
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Obviously you
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do. Yeah. Tell me about it. What's what's going on? Yeah. And just
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coming back to a point you made about how sometimes it involves us looking at ourselves. I think there's one of the issues is that some parents will have really struggled. They either struggling now with mental health issues, stress, extreme stress, which makes it much, much harder for them to be consistent. You know, those, those meetings you need with your teen, where you need to think through the consequences you need to work with them and what they think, all that stuff that takes quite a quite a high level of skill and patience and emotional stability. If you find that you've got to the point where you just not able to do that, that's it. There's nothing wrong with you reaching out to get some support and some help yourself, whether it's another parent, or it's some kind of professional help. You know, this actually really, really matters, and don't think you're being indulgent. Think I'm doing this for my family because I need to be okay. Absolutely, absolutely. That's really,
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really good point, because it's really hard, it's really hard, it's really hard, especially if you're on your own doing it. It's really, really hard. So asking for help is, is, is a sign of strength, not weakness?
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Yes? Yeah, absolutely. And once again, with parents who are doing this on their own, wow, it's really tough. So reach out as much as you you can or need to. Does this episode resonate with you?
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Have you been struggling with trying to get life under control in the house? Have you tried some of these consequences and felt they hadn't worked? What sort of things have you put in place? I'd be I'd just genuinely love to see, love to hear. I mean, some people have a list. I mean, when you know I have worked, you know when the parents were were parents of children who were younger, we had lists of consequences so that people knew you do this, this will happen. And. It was very clear, and I find that that's too rigid for me in my household. But that is another way. Well, no, that's why they make a list and they write it out and they put it up and they say, so if you do this, then this is what will happen. So that's another way of actually dealing with this. And you can add positive things. You don't have to always take things away.
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You can say, you know, if I see this happening, big, and here's why I want it to happen, if I see this happening, I can, you know, I can give you this, yeah, another treat here. We're building up to this treat,
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I think, as in most things of parenting, there's, there's rarely a right or a Ross. So you can different ways of doing it. Have to find what really resonates with you and and, you know, do that, and your teen will pick up that you really believe in this, that this is, this is something that you that you're really wholehearted about, and that will have way more weights and picking a random technique
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you read in the book. And don't be flustered if you see other your teen coming home and saying, Oh, well, they don't have any rules at that house. That's you just say, Well, you know, good for them if they find that works. That's not how we work, and we really need to have some structure. And here's why. That was me talking with the wonderful Susie asley.
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You can find her contact details in the notes of the podcast.
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Since doing the research for that episode and parenting my kids through their early teens, I'm going to add two more key things I've learned. One was taught to me by the eminent psychologist David Jaeger, he says that from the age of around 10, kids become driven by status and respect. Once we know that we can look at their behavior and ask ourselves, what are they getting from this, it could be that they're not doing what we ask because they're trying to gain a sense of respect and status by pushing us away, or it could also be that they're doing dumb things because it gives them status with their peers.
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The key is to start by asking questions, not judging them and catastrophizing. Knowing the role of status and respect can also help us to understand why it's so important to show our kids respect by engaging them in a discussion about why our rules are important. And of course, what's annoying for us is that before we do that, we need to know why we think they're important. And if we start by questioning ourselves, we can then have a more robust discussion about the boundaries that we put in place. Make no mistake, those boundaries really, really matter, and our kids actually want them in order to feel safe and loved. That's why I've created a lot of episodes delving into the key things we need to create boundaries for. Just to help you think through the topics, it's all a bit of a haggle. So there's never a right answer, just something you need to negotiate within your own family. Mine hate me taking away their phones at night, but they also admitted they're grateful that I've kept that rule. They regularly mention how much they appreciate the boundaries I have set for them. Secondly, I didn't talk enough in this episode about noticing when they do good things. Building that connection that's so important relies on genuinely noticing what they do well and look not just not getting hung up on the nitty gritty of what's going wrong.
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For example, if your kid washes up after dinner, don't point out that what they did wrong. Just say, hey, I really appreciate you stepping up for the team.
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The more genuine good things we notice, the better they feel about our respect for them, and the safer they feel trusting us with everything else. That's enough of me rambling on. I did actually write an entire blog about this because I think it's such an interesting topic, and one that vexes parents around the world. If you want to read more, you'll find the link in the notes. If you found this useful, please send it to at least one other person you know right now. You can give it a five star review on your podcast platform or on the website, which is www dot teenagers untangled.com. Message me on teenagers untangled@gmail.com or find me or Suzy on your favorite social media platform. That's it for this week. A big hug from me and enjoy those teens you