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Hello, and welcome to teenagers untangle the audio hub for parents going through the teenage years. I'm Rachel Richards. And this week, I have a very special guest to talk about, Rick. No, it's not Angela Duckworth. She became famous for her TED talk about the concept of grit, which is, is the thing that gives people a mental toughness that enables them to keep going, and even succeed in the face of adversity. So what we're going to talk about today is a programme set up by someone different, her name is Dr.
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Louise Randall. Welcome, and thank you so much for joining us.
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Thank you so much for having me.
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You're a general practitioner of medicine in England, because we have people listening all over the world. So we need to say I won't say GPI, just just so they understand. And I've read through your website and what you're doing. And the organisation is called Grit. And you decided to set it up, because you were seeing a number of young people who were struggling with their mental health what what actually was happening, what were you seeing?
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Well, hopefully a little bit of a longer story behind that, because I set it up for with three different hats on one as my own experience, from my own experiences, it's my, in my adolescence, second as a GP. And thirdly, as a parent. And my own experiences, as a teenager were probably quite unique. I had an eating disorder and spent a long time out of school in and out of Child and Adolescent units. And it wasn't a particularly easy experience, to say the very least. And I think back then, you know, we're talking about 30 years ago, it probably was less known more about how adolescents interact with peers and the need to fit in with tribe and how, particularly girls take on emotions of other people, things that I was exposed to that point that made me be Haven do things in a way that perhaps I wouldn't have done, that ended up having consequences for my later life, in particular, wanting to do medicine. And I sort of carried that with me and initially started out. It's very, very fortunate to be given an opportunity and chance to study medicine, by Royal Free Hospital in London, and initially started out thinking, I'm going to change everything for adolescents, I'm going to do Child and Adolescent Psychiatry.
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But then once I got there, I felt actually, I just want to put all of that in the past, I'm now having a great time in life.
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And there's other things I want to do and got on with my life.
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And then fast forward, another 15 years or so. And I'm now a part time GP with my own family, three children. And we're starting to see quite a lot of young people coming into the surgery, with problems like self harm, and there wasn't really anywhere for them to go at the time, except refer to cams, there wasn't any interim. And I felt child and adolescent mental health services. Yeah. So that's, that's what we have in the UK, to support children and adolescents right up to the age of 18. And it's quite oversubscribed, as there's a long waiting list at the moment, and it's definitely been under resourced. And from my own experience, I felt things could be done differently to support teenagers in a different way.
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And this was compounded by the fact that I had also started using social media, and to put it mildly, was quite horrified at what young people could access, which was the same as what I had seen behind closed doors in a very, very, very unique environment. And my concern was if a young person can see this in their bedroom, I am not surprised that we're seeing what we're doing. Because knowing how that made me feel and behave at the time, I can understand why this would be causing such a change in behaviour amongst young people.
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And this is terrifying, really, that this is out there.
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Wow, this is this is really interesting, because I do actually know people who have been supporting their kids through eating disorders, and it's harrowing.
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And can you be a little bit more specific about the sorts of things that they might be accessing that might be, you know, exacerbating the problems that they're experiencing as a teenager?
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Of course, of course, I will talk about self harm if that's okay. But what happened to me in hospital is that there are a group of people that were self harming and there was an encouragement that to self harm and to to do it better and put that in inverted commas.
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Since by using ways which would exacerbate the extent of the injury, and what I then saw on social media was exactly the same thing happening almost glamorization of self harm. And this is the way you deal with emotions. And this is how you cut deeper. And not only that, the same time an advert for Gillette razor came up, because it was the way the robots work.
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And and you're just picking this up. And yeah, this was these were young, mostly teenage girls talking about their experiences and almost a coolness to it. And I just was horrified. You, you don't know the consequences of that. What that will mean for you, as an adult, you have to live with that, even when you don't want to be reminded of difficult times. And just Yeah, I just felt very, very driven to do something about it.
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Initially, I wanted to, before
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we move on, I'll just say that we do actually have an episode episode on self harm, and how you can support your teenager, you know, if they begin self harming, but at the Yeah, we had, I mean, it just didn't seem to be a thing when I was at school. So that's very worrying, because we're seeing a lot of a lot more parents coming to us asking about self harm and how they manage it.
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It's yeah, it's really, really difficult.
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And I think you're right, it wasn't a thing as much back then I think it went on in different ways. It wasn't that it didn't happen. It did. But there certainly is a lot more of it, of it happening now. And yeah, I think for any parent going through that, it requires a certain level of understanding and support for the parents as well.
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You have you have personal experience of this. And you've seen what's coming in through the doors and trying to help kids who happen to be referred to cams, which are, you know, for people living in England, we know that this is a vastly underfunded, overwork service, it's very hard to get to see somebody, it's very frustrating. So can you explain a bit more about what what you've set up?
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Yeah. So I think one of my concerns was that I, and it's not to downplay self harm, but actually, we don't really knows the society, what a normal teenager is, if the study is still quite new in the adolescent brain, but it's actually very normal for a young person to experience quite high levels of unpleasant emotions, including anxiety, including anxiety, anger, and really to be trying to find out who they are, what their places in the world, it's quite normal to rebel against your parents to reject them as as you are trying to find out who you are. And at the same time, is recognising emotional distress and applying that support, I think it's also really important that we understand that not, we don't want to over medicalize it. So we want to be able to encourage the young person to be able to explore their feelings, and learn how to deal with them in a healthy way, remembering that the adolescent brain has been shaped so what we do now has a huge impact on the future, therefore that that creating those healthy pathways to manage difficult situations is absolutely vital. And I wanted to give them a safe space to speak about how they felt give them an opportunity to express themselves physically understanding a lot that a lot of what we feel happens in our body, just talking about it sometimes doesn't always help.
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And sometimes you can't, because you don't have the words, particularly as a teenager, you can't articulate how you're feeling. So sometimes just being in
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point, because that's something we talked about in our self harm episode is that a lot of the time, even adults struggle to identify and express their emotions. So for a teenager, this can be incredibly difficult because they're not even sure what's going on.
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And then to be told that there's something wrong with you. Actually, maybe not. Yeah, maybe, maybe not. But actually, that's not what we're there for. We're there to really see you as a person. We wanted to bring in coaching at the heart of it. I spent some time abroad as a junior doctor working in South Africa and they have this this beautiful saying, Sal Borna, which means I see you, I see you, my ancestor see you everything sees you and how can I how can I serve you today?
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And I love the equality of that, you know that. That's what I want to bring in that this teenager is equal to us. They are not lesser than us because they're younger, or because they're experiencing emotional difficulties. It's how can we best support you with what you're going through. We're not there to diagnose we're not there to, to say this is right, this is wrong. It's what are you doing for you? What's the right choices for you. And then ultimately, through that, we developed the groans. And it contains the grip programme, which uses noncontact boxing, which is a great way to, for teenagers to experience physically what we're trying to teach them emotionally, it makes it tangible, so many so much psychology is, yeah, I can do, that's great. And then when it comes down to it, so much harder to do it in practice than it is to go through it in your head.
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So we want to give them that physical experience the visualisation of it, and a way in which they can apply what they've learned in the boxing ring through non contact boxing out to their life in a way that will hopefully give them small positive changes, which then go on to lead to bigger changes.
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So talk me through that because I'm, I can't visualise what exactly would be going on in these sessions. Okay,
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so it's 12 week programme. And essentially a boxer gets in the ring, and it's all about adversity, it is about facing your opposition.
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Now with boxing, you don't go up against somebody who's seven stone heavier than you it's matched equality, wise experience, etc. So there is equality there you are able to, to win. And it's also possible that you may lose, and they have a great saying in boxing, there's no such thing as losing, it's only learning. No one can fight your fight for you. And boxing is perceived as being violent. It's all about getting aggression and anger out. And it's not, it's an emotional game of managing how you feel having strategies, and watching what the other person is doing and maintaining your call. So it will start off this is you will be just assessing range, you know, the first, that first round is not very much happens, you're just suffering each other out, you don't go all out at it.
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And it's that sort of experience we want to get so we divide the programme into the four corners of the ring, with the first corner being the doctor's corner, which is what you would have in any boxing bout you have the ringside doctor there. And that represents your physical self, looking after your physical self, your nutrition, sleep, exercise, but also tuning into your body. How are you really feeling right now? And if you're feeling really angry or anxious, what's that about. And then you've got the potassic aspect of being able to hit some pads or bags or whatever, and to help process that, that really getting them to feel those emotions in their body and what that means to them. Then we come across to the referees corner, which is of course about keeping you safe, those rules and regulations are there to make sure that it's a level playing field and to minimise injury.
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And that to us represents putting in healthy boundaries and your values, what are you going to fight for. And if you can start understanding your values and what's really important to you, as a young person, you can then start making the right choices in your life for you, and will lead a life that hopefully will line up to those values and link to other things. And then we come to your home corner, which represents the safety. Who's in your corner. Human beings have I think Karen Hall, a psychotherapist from many years ago described the three main things that human needs, and I really liked this. It's a sense of belonging, which includes feeling loved, it's being safe, which will mean physically in relationships and with yourself.
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And it's also been valued regardless of what you achieve or don't achieve. It's just you as a person. And it's about what what does that home corner, that safety aspect look like? Who are the people you can go to where you feel, you can be yourself, and who do you trust, and also remembering, they can't get in the ring and fight for you.
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They're there on the side supporting you, but that's okay.
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And they may be able to give you their advice, but you know, this is still for you to deal with.
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And then finally, of course, it's the opposition, which is adversity, and how do you show up? Are you if you think of a boxer, their walk on how they turn up to the way and of course there's a lot of, of of drama and things that go on around it for the entertainment side, but it's been said in essence, they're, they're going to stand up face the other person, eye to eye, they're not going to be hunched down in a corner, they're not going to be overly aggressive or you'd hope not.
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It's all about that mutual respect and being ready to gear up for it. And just changing your physical stance can have a huge difference on how you show up to the world. out. And we talk about, you know, beliefs that come in self limiting beliefs. Can you do this? Can you not do this? If you may have come from a background where no one's gone to university, there's a story you're telling yourself on my family don't go to university? Is that right for you? Is that really what you want, you know, what's holding you back. Just challenging that and getting the young person to feel equipped to, to understand that they can face adversity, they can move through it, and they can grow from it as a result, and they'll be more equipped when it comes their way next time to deal with it. So in a nutshell,
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it's kind of inoculating them by giving them adversity and a ring, or being able to learn how to what have I got in my toolbox? That can absolutely,
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just going back to those corners? What do you need, first of all to get there, and you need those three corners met? And guess needs to think each time? What is it?
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What is it that's going on for me? And of course, it takes practice. You can't just do it once and then I'm done. It's a constant lifelong, probably for all of us learning process all
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of us. It's really interesting because I have four daughters, two bonus daughters. And the two bonus daughters both love like one of them does Krav one does Thai boxing. And my other two daughters love martial arts like jujitsu because of the grappling. They like that physicality, that sense of. And I think what's really interesting is is that is that using your body in an in a very physical ways, it's often something that isn't offered to girls. Do you do you have on your programme, both boys and girls? Yeah,
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we have a mixture of both, which is really lovely to see. And all sorts of different backgrounds as well, which again, is really, really lovely to see. And lots of different reasons why people will come to us. But yeah, it's very, very empowering.
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Yes, it sounds it sounds I mean, I would like to do. And how do people access your services? How do they get onto this?
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So we've been lucky enough to partner up with the NHS in our area, so they can access it via their GP, we get a lot of school referrals as well, we also offer one to one coaching, which is in our partnership with the NHS, and we will have coaches go into schools to support young people.
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And they use the Four Corners methodology, but maybe not so much boxing unless a young person particularly request that. But they can young people can self refer parents can refer retry and make it as easily accessible for everyone to be able to access if they can get to us Where were those? And
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you've ended up with a boxing. But I think you is evolved, hasn't it? You tried other things? Yeah, well,
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initially, when we started, we tried yoga.
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And we have mentoring. And we had equine facilitated coaching, all of which was fantastic. But it was the boxing that seemed to be accessible to everyone and seem to hold the young people.
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But you know, it's four corners, there's four corners to a lot of things for cons to a football pitch four corners to a rugby pitch, four corners to a stage, you could apply it to almost anything in that respect. So yeah, if a child's got a interest in something else would be okay. What can we apply here and get you to really understand who you are what you need, in order to face the challenges that you've experienced them?
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And what have you got key issues that you tend to see time and time again, with teenagers because you've talked about self harm. But underlying that, I mean, one of the things that seems to come up a lot in schools where that are battling with behaviour issues is they talk about, you know, dysregulation where kids just, you know, explode, and they punch teachers or they and that there seems to be not enough ability to regulate themselves, you know, what are we what are we to do to help these kids?
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So really interesting question, because I think sometimes with these, these children, we tend to not recognise that they're often experiencing quite a lot of emotional distress. And when you look at the backgrounds of some of these children and what they're dealing with, sometimes they may be responsible for looking after their siblings.
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Sometimes they may have a parent that's not very well, or is not able to parent them, then it's absolutely understandable and totally valid for them to feel anger. I think there's a little bit of a of narrative in society that we shouldn't feel angry, and we shouldn't get anxious.
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It's abnormal, and both are actually very valuable ways in which we can feel. So we incorporate this there's a fantastic GP, Dr. Trevor Griffin's in I think he's down south somewhere. And he's developed emotional logic and we incorporate Write a little bit of that into our programme. And he his thing behind this is that this, this isn't an anger issue we have a lot of young people present with angry, she said, It's not anger issue. Anger is its energy, it gives you a fuel to go out there and change something. The problem is, it's how you're going about trying to change it. So it then comes about upskilling, the young person to be able to voice, their anger, to be able to express what they're feeling, and be able to get what they need from it, rather than expressing the anger in a way, which then results in more challenging situations for them to deal with, such as being expelled or suspended and so on.
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Yeah, I mean, it seems to me that it's very important, obviously, to protect everybody else in a in a group setting. But that so you do need boundaries. But maybe, you know, would you be saying that teachers and parents who are confronted with this, because we've done something on anger as well helping your child who's, who may be feeling extreme swings of anger, which is normal in some teenagers, that they need to let the child know that they're seen that they understand that there's a feeling in there and me, how would you how would they sort of move beyond where they are at that time?
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So I think it'd be getting to the root of what is making that child angry.
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And actually seeing the anger and the child, as this is great.
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This is great that you're passionate about something. What is it? Essentially when anger happens, it's because something's been threatened for us, whether that's actual or perceived, and it's threatened something that's important. And when it's important, it is attached to a value, something we believe in, that is important to us. So if you can work out with that young person, that might require some to see just being really curious, what is it that's triggering it? What is it that's important? If it's friendship, if it's this, it's okay, right, fine. So I'm hearing that fairness is really important to you. And you feel that when that's been challenged, or things aren't equal, that's making you angry?
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Great. What do you want to do to bring that fairness back into your life? How are you going to do that? Because if you're expressing it that way, then which you're doing, it's totally understandable to feel how you do. And it's not okay for you to express it how you do. But what is it that we need to do? What skills do you need to be able to, to get that equality and fairness back for you, if you can do that, then you'll be able to work with the young person to be able to get underneath the anger, and hopefully address some of the issues that are contributing to it.
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I love that because I think one thing I've realised bringing up kids is that nothing is linear, they don't suddenly learn something, and then they know it. And they all learn different skills at different stages. And part of socialising them to be to function well in a societies is to be able to say to them, oh, no, you haven't learned how to do that yet. That's okay. That's a skill, it's really hard. And let's practice it and showing them that, you know, and I love what you say about values, because I think underpinning a lot of these things is, is a sense of, of what like what is your value, and that's a good thing to have. And once they understand that and what what it is that's upsetting them, then they can be a much more in charge of their own feelings like, okay, they're there or not, you know, there's a value there that's being challenged.
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And teenagers, I mean, they're fantastic in that, that they're very opinionated, they're very valued, you know, they're not quite so worn down by life or like, Okay, well, that's the way life is. They're very, no, this is right, this is wrong. And I'm going to do this, and I'm going to change the world. And that's actually a fantastic quality about young people to be able to nurture rather than just squash it all down.
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Yes. So what I'd like to do now is just ask you, given all your experience and the programme that you're running, what sort of advice would you give to parents? I bought people listening in 155 different countries, so they can't access your service. But I know a lot of them are dealing with the sorts of problems that you're talking about. What key bits of advice can they use to implement in their own home life that would make a difference?
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Oh, gosh, I always find this slightly cringy when people ask for advice, because I've got four children of my own two teenagers one almost a tween and a toddler so and i i always very conscious of not I'm not an expert. I know this is from experience and
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I To tell you what the whole thing about this podcast is, we are not experts, you don't need to be an expert to give other people support and help eat, we need to what we need to do is we need to be able to share our own experiences and how we can help other people.
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Right, so my advice would be, and it's probably I don't know, if parents want to hear this, but actually, you've got to come to yourself, first of all, and if you think about the ring analogy that we do with teenagers, what we want them to do, we have to do ourselves. So first thing would be, again, look at your physical status. How are you? If you are we use a mnemonic Holter. I don't know if you've heard that before the hungry, angry, late, tired. It's, I think it's developed in the aviation industry looking at pilot error. And 80% of incidents happen when someone's either hungry, angry, later tired. So if, yeah, it's, it's like, kids love it, because it's so simple. If you're feeling hungry, if you're feeling angry, if you're feeling that if you're running late, or you're tired, don't have an important conversation with your young person at that time, because it's just not going to go well.
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You're not gonna be there, you're not gonna be calm it behind that can be really challenging. And also, again, you know, you're looking after yourself, physically, you're getting enough sleep, are you neglecting yourself care, but tuning into how you feel before you get ready to address your these important conversations, your teenager, and then obviously coming looking at your values, what's important to you, as a parent, so much conflict arises because the values are clashing. And it's not that you've got a young person that's been difficult, or disrespectful, it's just that your value, as a parent, is now different. And your teenagers value is going to be socialising with their friends trying to find out who they are, their friends are more important than anything can fitting in is really important. And they're gonna leave wet towels all over their, their bathroom floor because they're disorganised, and that's really annoying. And you're like, ah, but it's really kind of case of what really, really matters to me, as a family. What do I want, as a parent, as a mother? What do I need. And sometimes it can be as simple as like, it's time and respect, because I'm feeling a bit overwhelmed and fraught with running you here, there and everywhere. And I just need to say this important to me, it's important to you, where we meet in the middle. And then again, you know, your own safe space as a parent is not your teenager, you need to find friends that you can offload to to be truly yourself, you know, that your behaviour is really irritating me. That's not, that's just not going to go down very well. And if your teenager is distressing, of course, that's going to be distressful for you. But you don't want to put that additional pressure on them that how they feel is affecting you.
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Because that might close them down. They feel I don't want to let them know, because it's just gonna upset and worry them. If they know that you can offload and look after yourself. They'll feel a lot more comfortable about opening up to you. And then yeah, just doing those.
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First of all, I'm thinking about tone of voice, how you do it, how you challenge something or address something. And conversations aren't always easy, might not have the outcome you want. But you are, are showing your young person that it's okay to have disagreements and still love them.
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I love absolutely everything we talk about in this podcast is spot on. And I just I think what's really interesting is that the more we're prepared as parents to acknowledge that something's happening. So for example, you get annoyed about something when normal, this is not, you know, you can't be regulated all the time you are going to get angry.
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But by being able to say, Oh, well, I'm really sorry, I exploded, then I was you know that this is what was behind it.
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You know, and I'm sorry it affected you, the more that we can acknowledge that we experience these emotions, and then talk to our kids about them, the more we give them the opportunity to go, Oh, I'm not broken. It's a normal thing. And a man talk the other day, he was saying that his brother died when he was young. And he'd never, the only time he ever saw his parents show emotion was when his brother died, and at his funeral. And he said he'd grown up with all this shame about this. The fact that he did feel emotional about things and didn't really know what he was supposed to do about it. So it's not a it's there's a difference between being too emotional and just dumping everything on your kids because that scares them and being able to process your emotions and say, Oh, I've done this. That wasn't you know, that wasn't the best way or that I've been feeling this way, which is why and that gives a voice to them to say oh, yeah, I do.
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Yeah, yeah, you're absolutely right. It is that balance of getting it right of being a able to show your own vulnerabilities as a parent. And also, I think there's also, we all were adolescents and adolescents is a challenging time. And we don't, it's about being kind to that adolescent self, you know, what would our adolescent self wanted? How can we have parented that, and if you can do that for yourself, you won't be able to do it for your teenager? It's, it's probably not as complicated as we think. Well, that makes it sound easy, because it is difficult because we're human.
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And there's so many different things coming in. But it at the essence of it, it is all about that connection and sense of belonging.
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Yes. And tomorrow's a new day.
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tomorrow's a new day, Andy, indeed. Just say, I
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love getting to go to Dr. Louis rattle. It's been just fantastic talking to you. Thank you so much. If people want to find out more about you, how would they go about finding you?
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They can go into the charity website, www dot Graebert charity.org. And there's some information there, they can contact us through there. And we can do our very best to get back to you. I'm sure we will be able to, to respond to any queries that you may have. For sure. That's
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brilliant. But yeah, thank
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you very much.
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I'll put a link to your site,
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which you also put a link to, I think you might see it on the website as well. There's a fantastic blog written by someone who talked about that the letter your teenager can't write. And it's written about the fight. It's it's really, really beautiful.
00:31:26.609 --> 00:31:39.329
And I think any any parent is struggling right now, with just that clash, if they could read it and just get some comfort in knowing that this is normal.
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This is okay. You're still going to love each other at the end, you're still going to come through and you're going to end up with probably a beautiful adult who's able to say thanks for being there, despite all that I threw at you and said
00:31:53.730 --> 00:31:56.069
yeah, yes, I completely agree. Brilliant.
00:31:56.069 --> 00:32:03.299
Thank you so much. I'll put that in the podcast notes. And on my own link on my website.
00:31:59.819 --> 00:32:09.539
Brilliant. Thank you so much, Louise. It was so lovely talking to you. And yeah, best of luck with grid. Thank
00:32:09.539 --> 00:32:23.910
you very much. And thank you again so much for having me. It's been a real privilege. I have to say absolutely love your podcast and would definitely be directing any parents that are struggling towards it for them to hopefully get some advice from you. Thank you
