Prepare for the Inevitable: The Guide to Grief for Parents of Tweens and Teens

Rachel Richards: 0:02

I Hello and welcome to teenagers. Untangled, the audio hub for fearless parents. I'm Rachel Richards, former BBC correspondent CNBC Europe, world news anchor, mother of two teenagers and two bonus daughters. All of us are getting things wrong a lot of the time, but like me, you've turned up today to learn and grow, and that makes you a great parent. When I interviewed Dr Jody in January about our roles as parents, she was so clear that our most important job is to teach our kids ways to regulate those big emotions, other than just fight flight freeze, which are the three we get for freeze, and at some point, life is going to dump a ton of rubbish on us, and we need to learn how to get ourselves back to being calm and people who can turn up in the world as our best selves. We learn that from the adults around us, and sadly, we are now the adults, so we're the ones having to do it for our kids, and that's why, even if you're not currently dealing with grief, I want to help you think through how you will show up for your kids or your neighbors or anyone when the inevitable happens, because sometimes it's quick and there's no time to prepare. I'm giving you this vintage episode because I look I also don't have it in me to make a new one this week, because we discovered our oldest dog had renal failure, and we had to put him down on my daughter's 18th birthday. It's amelia's first proper bereavement. Casper has been a member of our family since she was three and a half, and she bonded with that dog to the point where she insisted on him sleeping with her, even though that was never the plan. And once he started declining. I think we were all in denial, and I kept going back to the vet trying to find out if there was anything else I could do, forgetting that, like, 14 and a half is very old for a dog, but it's my first time, just like it's our first time parenting. And I knew it was a matter of time, but I just I know now that my daughter didn't really believe it. Just this last Saturday, he insisted on doing his favorite dog walk unaided, and I'm talking about four kilometers, and he bounced around that circuit like a little puppy. Two days later, we woke Amelia singing Happy Birthday, bringing cake and presents, and I scooped Casper up to take him out for his morning sniff of the air and his pee, but he was just shaking with pain, and I wasn't interested in the world, and I knew, I knew we had to let him go on her 18th birthday. And I wanted to share this with you all, because there are things this reminded me of from the episode that we need to do as a parent, and you can learn from my experience. Firstly, the question was whether to make Casper Hang on one more day so we didn't mess up her birthday. And honestly, I just couldn't do that, partly because seared into my brain is my mother lying in hospital begging to die, and that was traumatic. I mean, if I could, I would have given her a use of, you know, an injection, and I knew that explaining why it's the kindest decision would make it easier for Amelia to look back and accept the situation, but I definitely didn't make it easy. I mean, I could have let her go in and have a fun day with her friends, but I knew that it would fill her with what ifs and that regret, so I decided to explain the situation to her on the way into college. And yeah, it was really tough, and she was so desperately upset that we just turned around and I let her take the day off. She spent the whole time sitting with him on her lap, hugging him, tickling him the way he loved and he just faded in strength. And the original time we booked to take him to the vet was kind of 1130 she decided that was too early for her, so I pushed it back and then invited around my neighbor's son and his girlfriend, who dog sat for him whenever we go on holiday, said they felt part of this morning process and and the other were moments in the day when she got really angry with me. She blamed me for not telling her. Sooner she would get angry because I would ask her what she wanted to do. She said, I don't want that responsibility. And look, having talked with Dr Jody about how important it is for us parents to just maintain our emotions and be able to walk our kids home, I realized it was not about me that I needed to give her space for her grief and let her feel upset, but also explain the situation. And because I've created this episode, I could tell she was looking at me to know how to manage her emotions. In fact, she even asked me at one point how she was going to deal with the grief. And several times when she was upset, I started crying too. And what was remarkable when I did that was she stopped crying to reassure me, and I realized it was a, it's it's like a bonding moment, and she needed me to show my feelings, which we talked about in the podcast. And it valued. Dated her pain, and it also proved to her that my composure was hard won, and it's something that we can do. And when we were finally at the vets, she found it really distressing, and ended up hyperventilating. And the vet had to he was so kind, he kept leaving us alone for a few minutes longer together, and I reminded her to breathe, and then I realized that she needed me not just to tell her to breathe, but to tell her to calm down, because she was upsetting the dog, so actually, to take my role almost and know that he was picking up on her distress, and she somehow needed to to manage her own emotions. And you know what she did, she snapped out of it, and she she thanks me for it because it helped her move forward. I originally thought we would bury him, but the others wanted a cremation, and when it came to it, we all changed our minds at the last minute, and that's another thing we have to keep open, that the way we will feel in a moment is going to be possibly different from what we anticipated, we took him home with us. We spent the evening digging a deep hole through clay in our garden. That is not an easy thing and and that was what we were going to bury him in. The vet gave us a special super strong plastic bag to put him in, because the foxes will smell a decomposing body and try and dig him up. Otherwise. I know it's gruesome. It's the truth. I'm so glad that we took that decision and created a little memorial for him. She said that to me this morning. She was like, Thank you, mommy. I it's just so important for me to go out there and say, speak to him and know that he's with us at home. He's not somewhere random. He hasn't been left at the vet surgery to be burnt. And you know, I think memorials are really, really valuable if that's what you want. Finally, I've realized that, look, death is messy and cruel, and it often comes at us when we're least prepared, and our kids will be searching for an anchor for their emotions. So it's important that we show our feelings, but not in a way where they feel. They have to carry them for us. We need other adults to do that. And my most used words during this period were darling. I know it's so hard, it's so hard I'm here, and I shared her bed last night knowing she'd benefit from having someone by her side who could regulate her emotions for her, they don't need us to fix them and make the pain go away. They need us to recognize their feelings, let them talk about them, and then lead them back to their life when they're ready. And with all of that, here's the episode where we talk about grief and the dying process, and to give you a chance to think about how you'll deal with it.

Susie Asli: 7:40

Hi, I'm Suzie asley, mindfulness coach, mindful therapist and musician and mother of three teenagers. Two of them are twins.

Rachel Richards: 7:48

Now, most of us, by now, have some experience of serious illness or death, whether it's a loved one or a friend or even a pet, but our teenagers are just setting out on life and having to support them through thinking about illness and death in the family can really be incredibly tricky for us adults can't it. One thing I did read that I thought was fascinating was a quote by Jean Denny, who's the psychotherapist and death educator in Wisconsin. She said there's this longing among young people to connect with death, and teenagers often want to discuss and ask questions, but they recognize that it can be a taboo subject, even with or maybe especially with their parents.

Susie Asli: 8:28

Yeah, I think that's really critical, isn't it? I think as a society, as a culture, we are, we are not very good at discussing death. We all, I can't say all. I can't speak for everybody, but the majority are quite frightened of death, the idea of death. So we push it, we push it away. We don't want to talk about it. And, of course, they pick up on that. They

Rachel Richards: 8:44

pick up on it. And there's a fantastic book called Smoke Gets In Your Eyes, which is actually humor. It's black humor, and it's about, it was written by a woman who worked in a crematorium, and she talks about the, you know, the way that our culture has changed in its attitude towards death, where we used to really embrace it. It used to be something where you would have wakes and the whole family would come or, you know, when people were dying, the entire family community would come around, and it would just be very, very much held that safe space where and part of life. And now it's completely hidden,

Susie Asli: 9:17

yeah, and it's really sanitizing. I think it's

Rachel Richards: 9:20

yes, this

Susie Asli: 9:20

is there's some changes as well. I think the idea of death doulas is is a growing thing, because there's a there's a feeling of, you know, we're missing the the sort of earthiness, the groundedness, because death is part of life.

Rachel Richards: 9:34

Yes, absolutely. Do you have any personal experience this?

Susie Asli: 9:38

I don't. Luckily, I'm very fortunate in that my children also haven't experienced losing anybody. I have professionally. So I have clients who go through these kind of issues, but not in my personal life,

Rachel Richards: 9:50

right? So for me, I've had, I've had breast cancer, and it was found very early. I didn't need any further treatment other than the operation of medication. I have been through this. Anxiety. They call it, where you feel anxiety about scans coming up beforehand and afterwards, waiting for the results. So this is a very common experience for people who have anything like this, because the medical track is you're on a different track now, forever. Talking to my teens was the hardest thing

Unknown: 10:19

for me,

Rachel Richards: 10:20

and it was more to do with I was scared for them, so I waited until I had enough information, but not very long, and then I sat them down, because one of the first questions was, when

Unknown: 10:31

did you know?

Rachel Richards: 10:32

And I was very clear. I told them exactly what stage it was, what what type of cancer it was, what I knew, everything I knew because they wanted information. And when they could look at me, they cried, and I held that space for them, and when they looked at me, they knew that I had been honest with them. And I think that is one of everything I read from people who've been through this and people who've suffered it themselves. It's so important that you we have to be honest and clear,

Susie Asli: 11:04

yeah, and

Rachel Richards: 11:05

deliberate about that.

Susie Asli: 11:06

Well, kids have, well, all people do, but particularly teenagers, they have their antenna out anyway. And if what you're is coming out of your mouth isn't in alignment with what they're picking up on, then they then they get really confused.

Rachel Richards: 11:16

Yes, well also now they their their chimp starts getting upset. They're thinking, hang on a second. So what else are you not telling me? And then the anxiety rises so they can calm down if they think that they that you're going to tell them, and then they don't have to worry, because they like, Okay, well, I can just wait, they will tell me. And I've only had that limited experience, which is, I'm very grateful that it wasn't traumatic. I've had some amazing I've trawled for advice. I've had some amazing feedback from one friend whose husband died with four children, and my bonus daughters have been through this. And I've got a friend who's currently, you know, dealing with this, yes. So these are all people who have given me some just wonderful advice, so hopefully that can help other people who are going through this, and that's and I just want to dedicate this to Sophie, who's going through this right now, and I think she's doing an amazing job. Jean Denny, who's a psychotherapist and death educator, says the kids who do the best have an outlet, and as their parent, you can model that for

Unknown: 12:19

them.

Rachel Richards: 12:19

So kids who encounter a death without any discussion or education may imprint that experience as trauma. And you've been working with trauma, haven't

Susie Asli: 12:27

you? Yeah, no, I am qualified, and I've done courses in trauma and understanding trauma, and I just recently, actually, last week, did a webinar in a workplace on understanding trauma. But it's a can be applied to life in general, and it's, it's such an important topic, and we still, you know, traditionally, we saw trauma as something only a few people experience, like soldiers coming back from war with PTSD or, you know, being in an earthquake or a war zone or a kidnapping. And now it's recognized that that's not what it is trauma is when it's not so much what happens to you, it's what happens inside of you as a result of what happens to you. So it's when we can't process and integrate this. The it's not so much the event, it's what, it's what, what goes on inside you. So can you process it? Can you integrate it and without judgment? So, you know, some people can, some people can't. It's we have let different ways of it, but it's, it's really normal and really common. So, you know, it can be sparked by watching a car accident, or, you know, something that we might have judgmentally earlier gone, or that's not trauma. That's not serious enough. Yes, that doesn't make it doesn't matter. It's, it's, it's, how do you how are you integrating it? How are you processing Yes,

Rachel Richards: 13:42

absolutely.

Susie Asli: 13:43

And, and, you know, your parent being ill, or yourself being ill, this kind of topic is probably going to be traumatic on some level. Yes, and it's normal, that's common, and you can, you know, get help with that. Yes,

Rachel Richards: 13:56

my friend whose husband died, she said that the older ones found it much harder. The teenagers found it harder than the younger ones, but that's just because they understood more about what was going on, and that was those particular teenagers. So they will all respond in their own ways, and we it's very difficult to give you an indication of how this is going to pan out

Susie Asli: 14:16

and and children understand death in different processes in their developmental lives. So, you know, young children will come and ask about death and on one level, and then maybe they'll come back to two years later. And you know, you might think we've done that topic, because they have a different understanding now of the world and the universe in general, and suddenly that simple version of events doesn't fit anymore. So they need to have more questions. So for teenagers, they have a much more complex understanding of the world and the universe. So they will have a more complex understanding of death, and it will affect them in a different way,

Rachel Richards: 14:50

absolutely. So I think one of the big questions people have is, how do you start this conversation? And my friend said, don't force. Have a conversation, they will come, they will come to you to ask you questions, if they feel safe talking about it. So it's about letting them know that there'll be no judgment. Whatever you're thinking is, is is safe? It's not you. There's nothing that's off limits. I think one thing that can help is to normalize death for yourself. Sometimes you don't have time to do that, but just generally, as as a just a human being, I honestly advise, it's wonderful to read about death, yeah. And because, whether you've got an elderly parent who will be dying at some point, just understanding this process can can be so helpful in advance. And I wish I'd done this before my mother died, for example, so,

Susie Asli: 15:36

so important. And as a culture, we are, we are generally really awful at it, we push it away. We sanitize it. We like we kind of think we're going to live forever. We don't. We know we're not. We know in our heads we're not, but we don't really want to deal with the idea that we're not, because it's terrifying, so we push it away. And that obviously ripples out to our kids. One of the big, sort of pillars in existential psychotherapy is the idea that if we fully understand that we're going to die, and by that, I don't mean just in your head, but you fully understand and integrate the idea that you are going to die, then you live differently. And you know the cliche is people who have been through some sort of awful illness or accident or something like that, and then they go, oh my goodness, I've got a new chance. And I'm now going to do all the stuff I want to do. I'm now going to, you know, shave away all the superfluous stuff that I don't want to do anymore. And the idea of the existential psychotherapy is, you know, wouldn't it be amazing and great if we all did that now,

Rachel Richards: 16:36

now,

Susie Asli: 16:38

but you have to really understand that, yeah, we were all going to die. I

Rachel Richards: 16:42

think it's hard, because I know that when I had cancer, it flipped that switch, and I thought, Oh, wow, I've got an excuse now. And it's almost like the societal expectations you need to be this until you've got sick, and then you can say, Oh, you can be this, yeah, as a society, we need to let people just be whatever,

Susie Asli: 17:00

or we can just not wait for society to give us permission. We can just do ourselves

Rachel Richards: 17:06

all that stuff. So I did. I've put some books in the podcast notes that I found really useful. I've read quite a few of them, and they're, they're just amazing ways of actually accessing this. There's also a podcast about death and dying that's in that so that that's designed to help people. I think the language is important. So again, euphemisms are really unhelpful, particularly with teenagers, because what do you mean? Yeah. I mean, you just have to say they're never going to get better, but you do need to be clear,

Susie Asli: 17:35

yeah?

Rachel Richards: 17:36

Because if you don't, if you're not clear, and then suddenly the person gets very, very sick, and they've been okay, then the teenagers going to go, Well, wait that you didn't, you didn't map that out for me. How did I? I didn't know, yeah, so, and it's a very difficult one, so we will go into why that's so difficult. So I do understand it's really, really tricky. And when you talk about it, it's okay to ask them what you do, what they do, and don't understand about the illness. So just try and get feedback from the most you get it, and finding time when you have full attention. So it can either be something where you're both doing an activity you both quite enjoy, and it's it's relaxed, it's not stressful, or where you can literally just stop and talk to them, because they will have questions, and don't be afraid to use language, like, that's their language, for example. Like, yeah, it really sucks. It sucks that mummy

Unknown: 18:32

is sick. It's

Rachel Richards: 18:34

painful. I'm I just feel terrible about it, and I wish it wasn't this way,

Susie Asli: 18:40

and they'll and that's okay. Yeah, they're prefer seeing your human response rather than when you're trying to and

Rachel Richards: 18:45

and, and my friend says, Don't be afraid to cry and show your emotions. They want to put their hands, their arms around you. They want to show they love you. The grief is love and being able to make you cups of tea or look after you and take over the cooking for the family,

Susie Asli: 19:02

or maybe their response is that they're really, really angry, and they run away and they can't deal with it. And that's okay too.

Rachel Richards: 19:08

That's

Unknown: 19:09

okay. Too

Susie Asli: 19:09

challenging for the parent, obviously, but you don't know. We don't know how our kids will respond to anything

Rachel Richards: 19:14

and and I'll just briefly mention that thing you shouldn't do is if you're not actually directly involved in that situation. So let's say you're one of the teachers, or you're one of their friends of the family, don't fall apart in front of this teenager, because they need, if somebody in their family who's a rock is going through this, the last thing they need is all the other adults around them falling apart. So they need you to hold that space so that they can fall apart. And that's okay,

Susie Asli: 19:40

yeah? And there's a very big difference between holding compassionate space for the teenager and maybe, you know, shedding a tear and really, you know, really feeling it must be awful for them, like truly, and in showing them that and falling apart, there's a difference

Rachel Richards: 19:55

facility. Yeah, it's a big difference. Yeah, watching movies can be very helpful, because. Because there are quite a few films that it doesn't have to be about illness or death, but actually there are films about even Disney films where this is touched on, and then it can spark conversation. There

Susie Asli: 20:11

are loads of films and music and art and books, because we don't like talking about death, so we put it in art.

Rachel Richards: 20:18

Yes, great point.

Susie Asli: 20:21

It's all out there

Rachel Richards: 20:21

now. So coming on to this specific thing about teenagers, and I got this from my bonus daughter, who was so helpful. And peer groups are super important at this developmental stage, which we know, and sometimes your teen is going to seem like they're not responsive. There are some teens who will be there, and it may be that they just want to process it with their friends. My bonus daughter hated all adults and

Unknown: 20:44

didn't

Rachel Richards: 20:44

want to talk to them,

Susie Asli: 20:45

okay.

Rachel Richards: 20:45

And she was fortunate at the time because she had friends who were suffering, struggling with similar things, and she had compassionate friends who she could talk to about it, which was so helpful for her and but then again, it can also be common that teens are the only person in their peer group who have this, this issue, and that can be very isolating,

Susie Asli: 21:04

yeah?

Rachel Richards: 21:05

So understanding how critically important peer relationships become when they're teenagers can give you a lot more empathy, which we were talking about earlier, for why they might behave in any particular way they're behaving.

Susie Asli: 21:20

Yeah. And also, like getting information like that, being told that, you know, given this information, is really shocking, and there's a grief in that isn't there, because, actually, is that as they process it there, you know, life will never be the same again, whatever happens. Yes, and there's a grief in that. So they may just, you know, need to shut down for a bit, or they're in shock, or there may be lots loads of different responses. Those are different reactions.

Rachel Richards: 21:44

And I think one of the things you can do to take a little bit of weight off is to reassure them that their needs will be met, whether they're physical, mental, emotional, spiritual, that they need to know that, because what happens, and this is a fascinating thing I've been thinking about, is once you are diagnosed with something that's a serious illness, regardless of how bad it is. So mine was really minor compared to some ones some people deal with. You're now on a different medical track.

Unknown: 22:11

You're

Rachel Richards: 22:11

no longer free.

Unknown: 22:12

You're

Rachel Richards: 22:13

now always going to have to refer back to that thing and get treatment for that thing and go in and get go to hospitals, talk to consultants. It's a whole new world. So the first thing is, if you are somebody who has intimate knowledge of that particular thing, then you might be useful to that person. But trust me, if somebody is going through this, they have read every single book they can possibly find on this. They've stayed up all night reading it on the web. So whatever sort of lay by idea you have may not be very helpful.

Susie Asli: 22:42

So that comes from our often desperate leading people exactly stress. So we want to take it away.

Rachel Richards: 22:49

So we start saying, oh, have you read this? Is really useful, and I know this, and we all do it, and it's and it comes from a place of love. But I've seen people raging, saying, you know, can you please not tell me? Give me advice on how I should grieve and what I'm feeling because, because it's not helpful. If you have had this specific experience, I'm all ears and I'm reaching out to you. But please don't, you know, minimize what's going on for me by, you know, trying to make yourself

Unknown: 23:15

feel better. So

Rachel Richards: 23:15

this is, this is one of those problems

Susie Asli: 23:18

that we all struggle with. Would you like to hear this? I've got this idea. And then, you know, they go, no, then back off.

Rachel Richards: 23:23

Back off. Exactly when I've talked to friends about this, they they often hear people say, Oh, you're so so brave and you're so strong. And the thing is, they say, Well, you know, I'm not. I'm just someone who is stuck in a nightmare I can't get out of. I wake up every day and I have to deal with what I've got. And you can call that brave or strong. I just call that living and yes and, and so what you can do that's incredibly useful is, again, holding that space and saying, I'm really sorry for that is, you know, and you can say, is that anything you I can do, but often they can't come up with something because they're too traumatized by what's going on. So changes in life are very stressful. You

Unknown: 24:07

know, you change

Rachel Richards: 24:07

schools, you change jobs, you change housing, whatever. It's all stressful. This is stressful because there's a big change. So the one thing you can do that can really help is the stuff that keeps things normal. So how are the kids getting to school? How are they getting fed in the evening? All those little things that become really arduous. So one of my one of my friends, said that she needed to be with her husband for all day appointments in the hospital. And it's very hard to then help your children, if that's what's going on, so the friends around can step in with very realistic things like cooking, helping with, you know, structure, regimes, homework. Can they come around to my house? Can we give you lifts, all that so they can keep going to their sports, so they can keep their life as normal as possible. Those are the things that we as onlookers can really do that can make a. Difference. And my friend said she took all the help that was offered, anything that somebody offered her. She was like

Susie Asli: 25:05

teenagers. That is what they think about, primarily,

Rachel Richards: 25:08

absolutely

Susie Asli: 25:09

like what, you know, tell them something. And even if it's not something as difficult as this, it could be something else. Well, who's going to pick me up

Rachel Richards: 25:17

100%

Unknown: 25:17

who's

Susie Asli: 25:18

making me dinner?

Rachel Richards: 25:18

100%

Susie Asli: 25:19

and it can seem a little bit like, well, is that all you can think about,

Rachel Richards: 25:23

you know, I'm really ill here. No, but

Susie Asli: 25:25

that's, that is their world. How am I gonna how are we gonna manage this? So it's really important that that's

Rachel Richards: 25:30

covered Absolutely. So that's, this is the way we have to step into their world briefly and go, Okay, what can now? The other thing that's really, really helpful is we do have to team tag with the schools. So this school teachers and the welfare officer, everybody needs to understand what's going on, and you need to find a point of contact where they can take the information and make sure everybody knows what's what's happening and and at each stage, because every time something happens, it can be Again, a shift at home. So what happened? The really helpful things that happened was daughters being allowed to leave lessons when they needed to go out and get some fresh air. One teacher actually helped this woman's son with his homework and gave him an opportunity to talk about how he was feeling with my bonus daughter, she said that she really acted out. She her fear turned into anger and and being very difficult. And she said the school was amazing at understanding that this was not her being a bratty teenager, that this was something else. And they she said a few blind eyes were turned.

Susie Asli: 26:39

Yeah, amazing.

Rachel Richards: 26:40

But they still kept the boundaries. They kept the bound. Because this is, this is one of the difficult ones, because it can be very tempting when they're really struggling to just let off all the boundaries. Oh, you can have a, you know, it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. See, we still need to give them safe boundaries, but we also need to ease off at like, homework, yeah, and just say to them, can you let your teachers know that you're just not going to be able to for this reason.

Susie Asli: 27:02

When people are experiencing something traumatic, which it is very much so they go into, you know, stress response, fight, flight, freeze, and, you know, sounds like she went into fight. And just having that understanding so a trauma informed workplace, school, wherever is having that understanding that that is their survival response, and it's not a personal attack, it's not a they can't actually, they're not choosing it. It's just happening. Or it might be flight, it might be freeze, and as you just said, really well, you know that we can also have nurturing boundaries within that. So just because you're in fight doesn't mean all behavior is okay, but we have an understanding why, why you're having it. So it's a very different space,

Rachel Richards: 27:45

yes, so rather than suspending them, you actually, yeah. So you sort of keep the

Susie Asli: 27:50

boundaries Exactly. Don't hit so and so again. But it's very different.

Rachel Richards: 27:57

What we can do is consider the roles the parent or the important person has been fulfilling. So let's say it's a father and you have sons. Are there any other father figures that can step in and give them some guidance and support, not, not replace them? It's just having another man that you can talk to, or, you know, whatever, the person used to serve as the breadwinner of the family, your teenagers going to be well aware that this like what's happening, what's happening with the house. Are we going on holiday again, where we you know, all those things, and they may not be thinking them consciously. So one of the things I thought that was really useful was you can actually have a family meeting and just talk about the logistics. If you've got teenagers, don't shy away from having a family meeting and saying, what are your concerns? You know, what? So, so let's look through the the bills, the bills will be paid. Don't

Unknown: 28:49

worry.

Rachel Richards: 28:49

You know, we're not going to move home. We're not, or maybe we are, but we let's talk about the sort of adjustments we're going to make, if you have the capacity to do that,

Susie Asli: 28:58

yeah,

Rachel Richards: 28:58

but it can be very helpful, though, for them to feel included,

Susie Asli: 29:02

yeah? And they will be having these thoughts anyway. So it's really, really reassuring for them, and super challenging for the parent going through it. I mean, like, I can't even imagine that kind of conversation. It must be so difficult, yeah? So also, you know, I imagine getting some support if you need, you know, talking about it in another space, then you're you can have that conversation. Yes,

Rachel Richards: 29:25

and support is, is the vital thing to reach out for. Now, my friends did this amazing job of reaching out to people. They realize they need to support from other people in the community. Whatever community you're in, you've unfortunately joined, even though you didn't want to, there are people who can provide so much support, and I'll put some of the websites, you know, Winston's wish, for example. But there are lots and lots of organizations now, who are there ready to answer phone calls if you need some advice, you need somebody to sort of back you up on something, or just just somewhere you can talk.

Susie Asli: 29:58

Yeah, cos the emotional. Roller Coaster is just vast. And

Rachel Richards: 30:03

in terms of, you know, coming back to the behavior and some, some act out, there's, there's a, it's a really interesting thing, the way grief works. And again, please don't look at someone go, Oh, you're in this stage, one of the worst things. So again, I've seen people raging about this, but there is anticipatory grief. So if it's catastrophic and they've lost their parent or something, that's just, that's what it is, and then you're having to go through that entire process very quickly. But when someone's ill for a long time, there's this whole grief of the little things that they're losing. And so each time this happens, this can have an, again, a new a new impact, and talking about it is really helpful. So my friend said, look, they know, they know that I'm not going to be there when they get married. And actually acknowledging that and talking about giving them a space to say, well, this is what I'd like, and this is how it might be. And then you saying, Oh, I would do this. And and I saw one woman say, when my parent was was dying, they didn't talk to me about how long it was going to take, and I actually had much longer than I thought, because nobody explained it to me. So then I just went into trauma mode, and I was just kind of Oh, rather than actually enjoying the time that I had with my parent where we could have made some memories. Who could have done lovely things, which is what my friends have done just unbelievably well. I mean, I look at how they've managed this, and it's, it's phenomenal, and it's those so it's so

Susie Asli: 31:32

sounds extraordinary your

Rachel Richards: 31:33

friend, yes,

Susie Asli: 31:34

absolutely

Rachel Richards: 31:35

brilliant. So, you know, doing little cooking things together, playing cards together, all those little things where you can talk about the stuff you're going to miss,

Unknown: 31:42

because we

Rachel Richards: 31:43

don't want to talk about that, do we? And I know from personal

Susie Asli: 31:47

hearing it,

Rachel Richards: 31:47

yes, and from personal experience of dealing with this, one of the first things they'll think about when you say I am going to die is they'll think their brain will quite possibly jump forward to all the things, those moments in life, getting their driving license, getting their first job, getting what any

Susie Asli: 32:06

Well, the teenage brain. I mean, particularly, for most of us as humans, does, but for teenagers particularly, and the world revolves around them,

Rachel Richards: 32:13

yes,

Susie Asli: 32:14

in any area,

Unknown: 32:15

and that's

Susie Asli: 32:15

meant to be how they'll process this as well.

Rachel Richards: 32:19

Yes, yes. So and So, Sophie's been incredible, and her boys can come to her. And she said, You know, one night she had one of her sons come and sit and said, I'm really excited about the future. Can I talk to you about it? And he's planning his university, and he's excited about technology and things. And she said, it's painful, but how lucky Is she that she's got a son who can come and talk to her, and how lucky is he?

Susie Asli: 32:45

He She sounds

Rachel Richards: 32:48

Yeah. What a woman.

Susie Asli: 32:49

Wow.

Rachel Richards: 32:50

I listened to this really interesting man who had dealt with his wife dying, and he said, almost up until the last moment, I had two tracks in my mind. One was she is going to get better and we're going to live a fulfilling life. And the other track was she's dying. And he said, both of those co existed. I actually could literally think both things at the same time, and this is how our brains can compartmentalize and work. So I thought that was fascinating. And I think with teams, you know, there's lots going on, but as far as they're concerned, you know, I'm invincible, and so we have to remember that and that they, you know, they may well push boundaries that aren't safe.

Susie Asli: 33:36

Yeah.

Rachel Richards: 33:36

So again,

Susie Asli: 33:38

hope part of our brain, isn't it? We always hope. But I imagine also, for some teenagers, and I think I've heard about this as well, is that for some that will put them into a fear spiral. So some of them will think they're invincible, and that's how they are. But some of them, oh, God, if they can die, then I What about me? Yes, and that can, then can go the other way. Yes.

Unknown: 33:59

Yeah.

Rachel Richards: 33:59

Really good point. They and they can mask emotions. Now, one of the other things about teens is they don't like to stand out, and it depends on the age, sort of, you know, often the younger ones particularly, but they want to be part of the tribe. We've seen them all trying to wear the same clothes, or whether, you know, they want to fit in somewhere. And this marks them out. This might make them feel different. So it's really important that we don't make them feel guilty for showing nothing

Unknown: 34:25

or

Rachel Richards: 34:25

seeming very, very selfish, being very volatile in their emotions. You know, it's, it's very hard for 12 to 14 year old to be able to take other people's perspectives into account. Even older, as you've as you've witnessed, and this is this is normal, but if you think your teen is is very volatile, or they're really shut down, and you've been doing these things where you're trying to make an open environment, it's worth trying to seek proper help,

Susie Asli: 34:55

yes, so that they have a space talking to someone and also something that. I have, I know about, but I've also learned firsthand from from my kids, is, you know, telling them, you know you can always talk to me and you know I'm always here. You can say whatever you like. They hear that they appreciate, that they like it. They don't know where to start. Yeah, maybe particularly boys and maybe sexist, but So giving them little nuggets of, you know, do you feel sad? Do you feel angry? Like really breaking it down?

Rachel Richards: 35:24

Or I feel this?

Susie Asli: 35:25

Yes,

Rachel Richards: 35:26

I've been feeling this. I'm just wondering if you're feeling

Susie Asli: 35:28

that. Yeah. So there's something tangible. They can talk about that and go no and shut it down, because maybe they just don't want to talk. But maybe they are, yes, I have all this stuff. I don't know what to say. I like making it really specific

Rachel Richards: 35:41

and an absolute no no, which I've been told about, is where we don't we feel uncomfortable. So what we do is we try to minimize our feelings by reassuring them. And that can be as bad as what happened in one person's case, where people were saying, Oh, well, at least it's not sue. I know my friend, my friend's dad committed suicide, or, you know, and this is literally some of the things people say and, and they don't mean to be uncaring, but they're saying things that are really unhelpful,

Susie Asli: 36:17

yes,

Rachel Richards: 36:18

and if you can't say, just hold that space and just say, I'm so sorry.

Susie Asli: 36:23

I'm so sorry. That's

Rachel Richards: 36:24

it. That's enough. That's enough. You don't just, just enough.

Susie Asli: 36:27

Now I want

Rachel Richards: 36:28

to do just quickly touch on really positive things you can do, which, again, I've been told about cookbooks. So Sophie's an amazing cook. She loves cooking with her sons. Her sons are turning into amazing cooks, and she's creating cookbooks at each boy.

Susie Asli: 36:41

Oh, when

Rachel Richards: 36:41

she's writing them herself, with their favorite recipes, things they do together, what an incredible and I hope Sophie doesn't mind me sharing that with everyone, because the fact is that this is one of those, yes, and they will be able to touch the handwriting, and it will be something that they can keep and cherish. And it's she got something like that from her family. So this is a kind of these are ways that we can pass on our loved and another friend has a book of memories of her husband where she got literally everyone he knew. She hijacked one of his email chains, got every single person he knew, and said, Can you just give me some memories and and I'm doing this too, because there will be lots and lots and lots of little snippets in there that get lost.

Susie Asli: 37:23

Yeah, and

Rachel Richards: 37:24

actually having them written down, put together in a boot, a book and read to the person, will bring back wonderful memories. It gives people something to focus their emotion on. So when people sit there and say, I don't know what to do, to show this person I love them, share your memories, yeah, and and put them all in the book, and then the children have something that's tangible. And my friend who has this, she says, The Book moves around the house. Everyone still opens it, reads bits from it.

Susie Asli: 37:51

Oh, it's so beautiful.

Rachel Richards: 37:52

Isn't that just amazing? And a memory box I also saw was a good one, where you can just stick in, I don't know, little special film you enjoy together, photos, letters, poems, bits of hair, pictures, cards, anything that's meaningful, and they can each create their own little memory box of those moments that were very special, that they can open touch and then just finally touching on the end of life. My friend told me that when her husband was given two weeks to live, which is a very difficult stage, she just basically said to her kids, you decide you can go into school, you can stay at home, you do what you want to do, and the only thing is, at what point do you tell your teenager that this is going to be the end, and this is, this is really important, because the truth is, even the doctors can't really tell you,

Susie Asli: 38:48

no,

Rachel Richards: 38:48

nobody really, really knows. And when you say, when you focus on the worst case scenario, you it kind of you lose all your hope. So people do try to focus on the best case scenario. And the difficulty is, you run the risk that your teenager is going to say, Well, you didn't tell me, yeah, and you can't so again, being open and saying they don't know. Nobody knows. When my mother was dying. She was saying, Well, how long is it going to take? And I was saying, I don't know. I don't know. And this is the difficulty,

Susie Asli: 39:18

and that's harder for a teenager, isn't it, because they want to know specifically.

Rachel Richards: 39:23

And so my friend's husband didn't want to be alone. She invited every single friend he had to come round to the house anytime, drop in whenever they wanted. And she said it was amazing, because he was scared about being at home in a hospital bed. And so she said the community was amazing. A friend who was a doctor came round straight after a night shift and washed up, made cups of tea, answered the door and sat with him before going home. People were coming in and bringing food, you know, lots of energy and laughter and friendship. People flew in from all around the world. And he said it was like the United Nations in there. I wanted to share that, because I want people to know that this can be all. Awful, but it can also be incredibly life affirming, and a time when you're not all just struggling.

Susie Asli: 40:08

Yeah. So it

Rachel Richards: 40:08

depends on how people so one of the reasons reading those books is really useful is because it gives you a chance to think about what you want. And there are people who will fight to their very last breath, who will say, give me some more medicine. Give me I want to get, you know, they will ask for everything. And there are other people who will say, very early on, they'll say, just give me palliative co I don't, you know, I want this to be the nicest, okay, so, so you just have to do what you do. But that's a lovely way of dealings.

Susie Asli: 40:34

And you know, you never also know how your kids are gonna respond. Some of them, you know, be react in a way that that is difficult for you to process or difficult for you to cope, but they maybe need to go down that road. And

Rachel Richards: 40:45

it just made me think that maybe your daughter would hate that scenario, given that she doesn't like people, but your son would go great, hearty. Actually, this is the big problem, isn't it? Every people deal with things differently. So

Susie Asli: 40:58

if

Rachel Richards: 40:59

you only take one thing from this conversation, it's that open honesty is the most important thing we can offer. Our teenager give them space where they can just talk and and let them know that it's okay, whatever they're feeling

Susie Asli: 41:13

Yeah, and they will be feeling like, at some point that it's so unfair,

Unknown: 41:17

yes,

Susie Asli: 41:17

and it's really unfair. Like, why should they? And

Rachel Richards: 41:20

that's okay to say that.

Susie Asli: 41:21

It's totally okay, and

Rachel Richards: 41:22

you say, so unfair, I rage. Yes,

Susie Asli: 41:25

yeah,

Rachel Richards: 41:25

yes. If you found this helpful, please do share it. Follow the podcast so you don't miss anything. And if you don't have the time to review us, just give us a star rating. It helps other people find us. We're on Instagram and Facebook, and you can read more on our website and also research through the old episodes. So if there's something that you're interested in, it's probably there. Susie has her own website, which

Susie Asli: 41:48

is www dot mindful. Hyphen life.co.uk,

Rachel Richards: 41:53

she's got really great techniques for helping through all sorts of different stages in life, and you can message her on Instagram. You can contact her directly, book an appointment. Yes, you don't have to pay to just like, start off by just talking to her about and she'll tell you, Oh, I can help you with that. Or, you know, here's where you might like to go

Susie Asli: 42:14

exactly. That's

Rachel Richards: 42:15

very helpful, and she's friendly,

Unknown: 42:19

usually,

Rachel Richards: 42:21

right? That's it, bye, bye for now,

Susie Asli: 42:22

Bye, bye for now, you

Unknown: 42:40

you you.