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What children are telling me in the therapy room, and they have done for I don't know how many years is I wish my mum would ask those questions. I could say to a child, oh, I know about the nether portal that's not being interested, that's having the hierarchy of power.
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Hello and welcome to teenagers untangled the audio hug for parents going through the tween and teen years, where we combine research by experts and our own experience to help us figure out how best to parent our teens.
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I'm Rachel Richards, journalist, mother of two teenagers and two bonus daughters, and my oldest is now 30, so social media like Instagram and Snapchat only started to take off as my second became a teenager, and for each subsequent child, the job of dealing with their access to technology and how to manage their relationship has only got harder. Covid lockdowns, I think they were particularly challenging, and I know from the emails I get that you feel the same way. And the latest narrative, pushed hard by Jonathan Haidt, is around banning social media until kids are older. So should we ban kids? My guest today says we're asking the wrong question if we really want to keep our kids safe online. Child psychotherapist and cyber trauma expert Catherine nibbs has helped hundreds of families work together to build healthy relationships and boundaries to protect their teens and kids from online harm, from grooming to gaming addiction. Her latest book is tech smart parenting, how to keep your kids happy and safe online, which turns science back strategies into practical tools for families. So Catherine, thanks for joining us. All right, you're welcome.
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You're against ban. So where does that leave parents? Because I have had headmasters saying, Oh, it's these feckless parents who give their kids phones and, you know, they're to blame. And I said, Well, you know, where were you? Where were you when, when I was going around school saying, Well, what's your phone policy? And they didn't have one. There's no consensus, no consensus between parents, no consensus between school and parents. There's no consensus in the government. You know, as there was a parent sitting here with a tween or a teen? How do we navigate
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this? So the metaphor that I use is a digital city park, and because we are being told of so many dangers, we are now frightened to take our children to the park. It's overwhelming. It's confusing.
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People don't understand what we mean by social media. If I go back to that digital city park, I'm going to give the listeners two metaphors to think about in terms of technology. When we're raising children and they're naught five, if we go to a city park, we recognize the dangers because we've grown up in a city park, and most of the time we can recognize the dangers through doing an internal risk assessment. Yes, we might say to a naught to five year old, hold mommy's hand. Don't, don't run away from daddy. Or we have reins. Do you remember when children used to have the roses and you would have the fold Burman? And then what you would do, in the words of attachment theory, is you would allow your children to move away from you come back for what I call a power up. It's kind of like a secure base power up. But you would watch them. You would engage with them. You would talk to them about the dangers, because you would be with them.
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Yeah, have children get to maybe seven to nine, you let them do a little bit more exploration, usually within your site. And then they are allowed a little bit more freedom when they get to 12 or 13, and by the time they get to 14, 1516, this is where Jonathan Haidt is on the money in terms of that's where children take those independent risks. Of, I need to be able to go into a physical environment and know, I have a space to go back to my parents, but I have to learn how to do this on my own, and that's based in previous steps and stages. So the dangers of the city park are many, and this is one of my favorite exercises to do when I'm teaching practitioners, is to get them to name the kind of issues that we might face in a city park, those dangers are exactly the same online. Wow people we might bump into the kinds of conversations we might see the kinds of issues around drug, people talking about sex, people behaving in ways that are not necessarily how you would raise your child, and what you do as a parent is you decide where you're happy for your child to go, in that park, and the kinds of bases where we would say, Well, I don't really want you hanging around over there, because I don't like the feeling I get about that particular set of people. Yes, now where we are in 2025 that's a lot of spaces in the digital city, because we've got Roblox, we've got Minecraft, we've got right so here comes the other metaphor. Those environments such as Roblox, or perhaps even Minecraft on what's what called Online playing in the servers are like. Shopping centers, shopping malls, as the Americans call them. Within those shopping centers, there are many, many different types of shops, and those shops are created by people who don't always have the best interests of children at heart. They are businesses, so they are trying to ensure that the customer footfall, so to speak, is big, and they make up the rule about whether the content is mature or whether it's got a specific rating. It is not Roblox who creates the ratings for those shopping centers and for those shops in the shopping centers. So what we're talking about is a big, big city park with lots and lots of shops and lots and lots of shopping centers. That is the bit that's overwhelming.
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However, we can take a breath and say, Okay, that sounds overwhelming. Kathy, you're asking me to know every single shop. We wouldn't do that in the real world. We would talk about there are particular shops that you're happy for your children to visit. There are certain shops you're not happy, such as gambling shops, shops like Hannah summers, okay? Because they exist. That's me making it very polite and palatable. Yes, yes, there are. There are shops that would smell vapes and cigarettes and perfume and and, and and. So what you're able to do is get your child to say, Okay, what's the thing that you're asking for? Well, it's Roblox. Mum, okay, what game is it that you want to play on?
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ROBLOX? Show me the game. Let's have a look at it together. And sometimes, yes, you're going to be sitting with your child, and you go, Whoa, yep. We're not going to play this game. Let's come out of it. And the reason we're not going to play that game is because, did you notice?
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And you educate your child, and your child educates you. It's the same with many of the social media apps. We're using them as parents, but we use them differently to the young people,
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yes, so we need to actually go in either with them or try them out as somebody that age to see what might,
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um, I would observe us. We're going to talk about algorithms now those pesky algorithm many people who set up as a 14 year old account and go on to Snapchat are not 14 year old. Okay, so they're not they don't have the same kind of friend list. They don't have the same kind of patterns of behavior. The algorithm recognizes that when you pick up an account, yes, just say Tiktok Snapchat, and you say, I'm a 14 year old child, and I've just been onto those locks, or I've just been onto Tiktok, or I've just yeah, the algorithm knows that, because you're not the 14 year old who's added, you know, 20 to 2000 other 1415, And 16 year old. So the algorithm feeds these, let's call them trial account, with material that is shocking. If you ask your child, and I would certainly say this is where we get to for the first time ever, say to our children, I don't know as much as you, please tell me that environment and oh my goodness, children love to educate us about technology. Is
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that status and respect that David Jaeger talks about, that they're so keen on?
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Yes,
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it's okay for us not to know. Yes, that is that. That is the collagen that we get to say, I don't know everything about technology. So yeah, I do is sometimes I asked the chat, what? Sorry, what does that mean? Well, I don't, I don't know what that means. Can you tell me a little bit more about that? And if I explain, as a therapist, that's what we do.
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It's the curiosity. And the reason we have such a good relationship with our clients is because we ask the question that we don't know. We don't know,
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yes, yes. And I think parents are scared to admit that they don't know something, because they feel that that will then reduce their authority. But actually what will happen is that they will gain respect from the child, because the child will think, Oh, they're genuinely listening, genuinely interested.
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Yes, if you go to parenting 101, let's call it that the most important thing for children is to feel wanted, to feel seen, suit, safe and secure, as Dan Siegel calls it.
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But what children are telling me in the therapy room, and they have done for I don't know how many years is I wish my mum would ask those questions. I wish my auntie cared as much I wish. And that's the number one request from children. Why do you pay attention to this cat?
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Because I'm interested. I'm genuinely interested in you as a person, and what you're doing, I could say to a child, oh, I know about another portable that's not being interested, that's having the hierarchy of power, right? I love this. Yeah. Child, each and every type tell me about the nether portal. What do? How do you make it? And some children will say, Well, I don't know. Then we Google it together. I know how,
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yes, and I when we were younger, we were taken around parks by parents, and so that's a familiar environment, and we know how to navigate that, and we know the fears about that. But when it came to being online, there are a lot of parents who just didn't even you. Perceive what the dangers might be, so they just handed their kids phones, and there were other parents who thought, I don't even understand this, and then they don't want their kids to have any access, because they feel that they have no authority. But what you're saying is that actually, there's another way which is so empowering. I love that. And so can we talk about the four Cs of risk that you talk about in your book.
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Have we have content, and that's my if you like my favorite kind of see, because that's what I've done my PhD around we have contact, conduct and commercialism. So commercialism is the direct targeting of customers based on information that's fed to them by either a algorithms, be the kind of stuff that the social media platform minds away from them, or the selling of third party data. So pretty much, how many times have you discussed something with your friend and then the adverts come up? They suck. Yep. Now for children under the age of 18, those commercialism algorithms must be reduced, because the Online Safety Act is not the panacea.
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There is conduct, which is how we behave online, and that will be if you think about terms like polarism or polarized conversations. Lots of people might have heard of some of the documentaries that come out talking about us being a polarized society. Yeah, we always have been. However, the internet means that it can escalate very quickly. It can also mean hate speech online, and that includes for children, things such as being mobbed, being kicked out of games, etc, etc. And you do get to report those risks to the platforms?
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You do get to say, hey, this keeps happening. This account is doing this, and the platforms, and I'm going to do asterisk, should do something about it when you report. So, okay, that's the other most uttered sentence in my office, is, what's the point? They never do anything now, contact was a bigger risk than it currently is thanks to some of the safety measures that some of the platforms have put in place, such as Tiktok, uh enabled adult accounts are not able to contact children under the age of 18, and certainly, really they they put the safety measures into Place. ROBLOX have just rolled out some very similar actions. A lot of the tech companies are now, because of the Online Safety Act, rolling out some of these safety measures. However, it is still a parent's if you like, duty, obligation, part of our parenting accountability to say to children, look, don't have people that you don't know.
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That's very difficult when in a gaming environment, those people are your game play friends. So again, it's having conversations with children about who is that?
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How do we know that person is who they are? Can we go and check in other spaces, like on social media. Can we have a look at what other games they play?
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Can we ensure that they, for example, play with us in the game, but they cannot communicate via direct chat or sending us emails, and then make sure we don't share other information about other platforms and our gamer tag or our handle as they're often known information that says who we are in those spaces, yes, and content that includes sexual content for over 18, which includes pornography and other forms of sexual material. It includes anything to do with hate speech, terrorism and the bit that we go right the way back to the conversation we've already had, self harm and eating disorder content for that. So Right? Eating Disorder content and self harm content, which includes suicide content, is something that children might happen upon. But also we need to take account of what I've just finished my PhD on violent and gory material, and none of that is lawful. Often called lawful, but awful lawful because it might come under the jurisdiction of newsworthy, journalism,
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interesting, and this is, this is why it becomes so difficult to well and then cutting off. Yeah,
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yeah. It's difficult. Rachel, the reason I am so passionate in this space is in 2010 I was working as a sex education tutor. My children were in secondary school, and at the time, these were when flip phones were used. My children were exposed to a video on flip phones of something I could not protect them from that where the term cyber trauma was born in terms of my own children encountered something. They were only just in secondary school, and they saw something horrific.
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Okay, these types of videos still exist. They're still on forums. They're in spaces that children. And can find and happen upon, but they're also available on some social media channel if they come under the guise of talking about, let's call it, or another term I use is www. There are things that take place online that the algorithms are not quick enough for. This has happened on numerous occasions, and I've written about this in terms of the Christ chart, Christchurch massacre, the young person who decided to end his life near Christmas, one time on Facebook and and that that was rapidly assessed, and that's really where this term cyber trauma came from. However, the bit that I talk about in the book is and one day, walking to school, my children witnessed somebody being knocked over on the road.
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Oh, I can't like text from you can't read, no event. I swore.
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The car driver swore. The person who was on the floor swore. So my children learned a lot about foul language that day. They learned a lot about shock and panic and people coming to the rescue and helpers and the ambulance service and blood, etc, etc. What we did was we had a conversation about now, that's what I do in therapy. That's why, as a trauma therapist, we learn to kind of integrate the trauma itself. And for many of those parents, it is absolutely guilt, shame, blame the moment your child sees something that you didn't protect them from.
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But what you're really demonstrating there is just how important it is that your child feels it's okay to come to you and talk to you about it, and that you'd be the first person they would want to come to rather than feeling that you're going to be angry with them or shame them for right?
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This is, this is, you're giving us a perfect example of why our relationship off offline is and our understanding of what's going on online is so important and non judgmental.
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Yeah, yeah.
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And that's why the video where I said, don't take phones away from children and and it's still, it's still going, it was over 6 million views, because it was a conversation about, if you take that device away from your child, they will then, in the future, reduce the likelihood of them coming to tell you that something had happened on that or, as I say, through that device, because it's not on the device, it's through it. What that then does is it means they're not going to come and tell you about some of the problems they're facing, because they fear that punitive. I'm taking this away from you, and that happens, I know I in the past, you know, I'm not a perfect parent. I've also threatened. You know, that's it.
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You're not going on the console for a week. You know, essentially, if you don't do your homework, if you don't tidy the house, if you don't do your bedroom, whatever it was that was going on for me at the time, and that would be the go to thing. What I what I recognize with my children is when you take that device away, and certainly this has just been re emphasized 15 years, you take away what is camaraderie and friendship in certain spaces. So it's the old fashioned in air quotes, grounding your children.
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However, everybody else in those circles can see that your child has been, that you've grown in your own hope to speak, it can become a space where ridicule takes place the actual event leading up to when tempers fray.
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You know, are usually captured in many different ways. For example, it might be a young child on a game and they've got their head hurt on and the parent walks in the room and only sees their child but doesn't recognize the other 55 or 55,000 players that they're playing with. And again, this is why becoming versed in what technology is and where our children are is probably the most important thing next to being able to have that open conversation, and that open conversation is the most important part of parenting around technology. Come and tell me if somebody's approached you.
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Come and tell me if you've seen something you don't like. Come and tell me. And yes, I'm not going to like it. I'm going to feel ashamed, I'm going to feel embarrassed, I'm going to feel like I'm not the perfect parent.
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Well, that's my stuff. Mm, I'm glad to tell me,
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yes, start, start. We've talked about sitting with your child, going through the things that they want to access, looking at it yourself, having conversations about it. But you know, how would you go about staggering this? And what ages would you be talking about starting.
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Here's how my ruling went in the house, consoles, computers, every part of technology was always within my eyesight. They get smartphones as they would be now until they were a little bit older. However, when smartphones were introduced, we. Talked about the kind of apps I was happy for them to have on their phone. Mm, one of the things I'm aware of is, no matter what we do in our castles, we cannot control what happened elsewhere.
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And I haven't this is the biggest Yeah, my I said no 18 plus games in my house. You know, no Call of Duty when that first came out. So my youngest went to one of his friends and told his mum that he was allowed to play on this game that, of course, as we did with horror movies. Okay, we then had a conversation. Thank you for telling me about that. I can't really ban you from going to that friends again, because that's now a punishment on that parent, and that's for not knowing it's also a punishment on the other child for having totally different rules to us.
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But that allowed me to have a conversation about some parents don't necessarily know the games, and they don't think about these games in the same way that I do. And the reason I said this was because, and whilst people will see that sometimes as the gentle parenting, the over explaining parenting actually, there isn't.
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There isn't anything other than a conversation taking place when you go back to the research, when you go back to all of the parenting books that have written for a long time, it's about having a dialog with your child, saying no full stop, or saying because I said, So doesn't help your child learn the why, the what and the reason. When it comes to consent around what you can go on and what can't go on. I take this back to toddler conversations.
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When the toddler says, I don't want to put my shoes on, I say, I totally get that. You don't want to put your shoes on, but we're going to go outside and there could be glass or dog poo, and I know you don't comprehend that. I, as the adult, already know about those risks, so whilst I know you don't want to put your shoes on, we're going to put your shoes on. I hear you, but here's the thing, I'm the grown up. I'm making the choice for you.
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Yeah, it's really interesting, isn't it, because I have actually done such a lot on creating boundaries, rules, consequences, and the thing that really became clear was how important it is to start by thinking yourself, why is this an issue? Why? Why should I have a boundary here and not think, Oh, well, I don't know. So I'm not going to have one. Your kids feel so much happier and safer when they know that there are boundaries. And when you say, I'm doing this because how awful to have a parent who loves you so much that they're prepared to put a boundary and where actually it could easily, I could easily just say, yeah, go ahead and that gives that child a reason for understanding and listening to you where they might not otherwise,
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absolutely.
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And I would also add right to one of the things I used to do with my children, and I do it there a few years I'd say, Why do you think I'm putting this boundary in place blame to me?
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Well, yes, because, you know, for example, it would be, well, no, you can't go on Roblox. I know you can't go on Snapchat.
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And I'd say, a point. So why do you think I said, No, well, because you're horrible when we've got over that little barrier about I don't like the decision you've made, actually, what you're asking your child to do is begin to do critical thinking. And in today's world of inflammation, misinformation, disinformation and malinformation, we need critical thinking.
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Yes, and interestingly, a lot of people worry about the impact on a child's brain of spending too much time online, I've done a lot on screen limits and showing your kids by your own behavior, I'd be interested to know what you think the impact that it might have on somebody, because I think teenagers are forming their identity so they're being exposed to a social environment that that isn't necessarily one that agrees with our own values.
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So what? What are your thoughts about the impact that it can have on on a developing brain?
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So
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the first thing is to remember, as a parent, what it was like to be a teen. It was incredibly difficult. You don't know if you're coming or going about what things you actually like, or whether you're choosing to like something because your friend likes it, or because the person you've got to crush. We don't have the youth clubs anymore. We don't have the spaces for sports. So children have naturally gravitated to an environment where they're trying to find a third space. However, in those third spaces online, and this is that kind of contact, content and conduct, risk, there are usually adults.
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Let's go back to the 1950s when we didn't really have technology. In the 1950s children would have gone to other people's houses. They would have been exposed to, you know, Billy's dad's opinions.
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Then they would have gone to, I don't know, little Tommy's mum's opinions. Actually, we now have to think there's a lot of parent there's a lot of grandparents, there's a lot of aunties, there's a lot of uncles whom they're going to come into contact with. So for me, this is where critical thinking is always about. So what are you engaging with online? Who are you listening to? What are the podcast leading to? What are the videos that you listen to? And it's really hard as a parent. We are time poor. You know, we are working really, really hard.
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We're time poor. And this is probably going to feel overwhelming. I haven't got tone Cath to be learning about all of the podcasts my child Yes, so or Yes. So this is where conversations take place in the real world about the kinds of issues or content that children come across, and that might be so in my cyber trauma and online harms book, the biggest chapter I wrote was on the health and wellness industry, because there are a lot of snake oil salesmen in the health and wellness industry selling to adults.
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Never mind about children.
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You're not good enough because you haven't got the perfect body. You're not good enough because good enough because you look like you're a good you're not good enough because you haven't done, I don't know enough meditation and the morning routine this morning.
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You haven't taken enough supplements, and you're not body positive, and you haven't you haven't you haven't you haven't.
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So what I would say is this requires us to have a look at what we do and then think about what do our children get exposed to? Well, it's the same stuff, but it might be people who are vested in organized crime, for example. So certainly, the conversations I have with children about, so what's, what's the, you know, what's the weirdest thing you've watched on the internet, what's the most compelling thing that you've watched on the Internet, what, what kind of things do you do in terms of getting your advice around fitness or health and well being or your mental health? Because that is a huge topic matter at the moment, certainly in terms of on social media. And I would ask children to tell me their opinion. I have discussions with clients about food, diet, sleep, fashion. You know this term at the minute that's very, very popular about the scouse cut, in terms of the way that hairstyles are done, and having a conversation with a young person saying, What do you think a person from Liverpool would say if you said to them, that's called a scouse cut? And what, what I've found is that children will take that moment and go, I've never really thought that, and I said, because there's got to be scousers on the internet, haven't they, right, right? So how do you think that is for a person from Liverpool to know that because you're from Yorkshire, this is a derogatory term that you're now using for a particular haircut,
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right? You could even write things down beforehand and putting them out and say, What do you think about this? That could be a really interesting, fun, yeah, fun exercise around the dinner table. And you have an acronym that you use to sort of help parents think about how they're approaching this in CPR. Can you talk about that acronym? Yeah?
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And how,
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yeah, yeah. So this is consistent, persistence, resistance. The consistency is taken from an approach called interpersonal neurobiology.
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There are two people that CO create a situation. One of them is me, with my opinions, my understanding of the world, which is generally in comparison to a child more mature. I am an adult. They are a child. And I have to be child focused. I don't have to be weak. I don't have to be all of the terms that I see being thrown around by certain parents and experts online. So the consistency is, whether I am at home, on the train, at a party, I don't know, at a dinner at my friend's house, the consistency is I'm showing up for my child regardless of what anybody else around me thinks. And that is really, really hard to do. And persistency is around when your trial, when your child tries to negotiate which they will, because that's how co created situations occur. I know you want to carry on playing on the iPad, but it is time for us to leave, or we've got to go. Now, there's many parents that have done this. When children have been at soft play areas. I know you're having fun, we have to leave. So the persistency is around what you might call broken record, and the resistance is regardless of the looks you get. This is where shame really comes into fruition. It might feel like your face is on fire, that you've got jelly legs and you've got all these thoughts rushing through your head. People are judging me. I'm such a wrong audience. Yes, that is the resistance, see, and the resistance seat has to go along with that's where your child is going to move into a place of, if I can't negotiate, I'm now going to use behavior and emotions to get what I want, because that's what children do.
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So it's understanding. This is about children communicating with us. You know, they're enjoying their time on Roblox, on Minecraft, and they're playing with their friends, and I've just come in and I've spoiled it because I've had the audacity to make their dinner.
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Yeah, it's that I understand, but also recognizing that in those situations, your child is looking to you to be that parent who constantly shows up in the same way and predictability is the thing that. Results in secure attachment.
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Yes, and that predictability is so important.
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It's so funny. When I used to do parenting workshops, the whole thing we do is you just give in once and say, Oh, well, it doesn't matter today. They will, they will test the boundaries so much harder every single time after that. But I think coming back to what you said earlier, I think the most important thing is to have begun with, why am I setting this boundary in the first place? Because you can't be CPR if you're not secure in why you're doing it. So that's, I think, being clear about what we're trying to achieve is is so important, and having values at the heart of that. So if we were to we've got your book, which is just great. I like that you've got summaries at the end of each chapter, just just kind of consolidate what we've been reading about in the chapters.
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I've had lots of parents who said I've set in place certain things, and my my kid is just overriding them. They're ignoring me. They're they're going on platforms I've told them not to use, and my husband's going, Oh, well, it's really matter. You know, just chill out. It's not that big a deal. You know, how would you go about talking to a parent in that situation and saying, Okay, here's how we go forward.
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Oh, now that is tricky. When the partner is not on the same page there, maybe sometimes that requires the parents to have that conversation about, here's what I've learned about the risks on this platform. You know, I went and read cats book about online sexual harms, and now I'm absolutely terrified that children will say blah, blah, blah. So we get to be self compassionate with ourselves.
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That is rule number one. We are doing the best that we can with the tools, and if we don't have the information about risks, those risks that I talked about, we don't think about our child's development, we don't think about our child as an individual, then our toolbox is going to be minimal. The reason I've written the book is to give people more tools. But actually, there are real risks online.
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It's my it's my job. So I'm not saying hand over devices willy nilly or without those boundaries. However, the question you've asked is, What do we do now? If those parents have done exactly that, number one, don't blame yourself. You did not know what you did not know until you knew what you now know, yeah, and that means we can do better going forward. So sitting down with our children saying, Hey, I didn't know that you could be contacted by people on this platform. I've just thought that's really shocking.
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What do you think about that?
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What do you think we should love together? It's it's a collaborative approach. And certainly, what it says to the child is, I didn't know, and if you didn't know, how can you protect your child? But what that also does is it now says to the child, through modeling, through that kind of behavioral approach, oh, these people I have on pedestals. Which children do put us on pedestals?
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They they're not completely perfect. They have fault. And if they've got faults, and I've got fault, I can go to them, because I'm not perfect
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either 100% yes. And my kids say that to me all the time. They say the fact that I'm honest about the failings that I have means that they feel safe talking about the way that they fail, and it's not a shameful thing at all. I love that, and I would have finished on that, but I'm just thinking one thing I want to ask you before I let you go. If you have a child who's, let's say, neuro spicy, they will be navigating this in a different way. How would you talk to parents about the difference and how they can help their kids?
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So that spectrum is huge, and the way, the way that I've covered it in the book is when i There are little boxes that are about neuro developmental issues, attachment, trauma, vulnerabilities, special education, need, you name it.
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Each child is going to want to do something because it helps them in a particular way. So because all of the clients that I've worked with over the 15 years, the children with neurodiversity, they use technology for a particular reason. They are not identifiable as a child with neurodiversity in many of the cases. So in a school setting, Little Timmy over in the corner, who's stimming, or little, I don't know, little Amy who is chewing her jumper because she's dysregulated. They're really obvious to other children, and they often feel excluded. So in the virtual world, these children can create avatars.
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They can create representations of themselves who are children without those disorders sometimes, or those labels or those issues. It's predictable.
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The rules do not change. And if you think about the kinds of ways that neuro developmental issues present, is it's when change occurs. It's when things don't make sense, right? And for a lot of children with autism, they have, and I've worked with so many over the years, they walk in head down, facing a computer screen. Some children you. Use technology for the same reason that they might stay right?
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That's really interesting. And I think one, one thing to go away with is that when kids are online, it's not just a terrible thing that they could access. There are actually some incredibly beneficial things where they can meet people who are like them, who accept them for who they are, and they may not be able to access those people in their day to day life, and that can be such a relief. Catherine IBBS, that was absolutely fascinating.
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Thank you so much. If people want to find out more about you, I'll put the links to your book and your website and everything on the podcast. Notes. Is there a best way that people
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can reach you?
00:35:40.579 --> 00:35:52.300
Probably on the socials, as they say. So I am on YouTube, Tiktok, Instagram, Facebook, LinkedIn, Twitter, blue sky. Yeah, brilliant.
00:35:53.559 --> 00:36:14.820
But Catherine, thank you so much for this. If you found this useful, please send it right now to someone who would benefit from it. Don't forget to follow give it five stars. You can contact me at teenagersuntangled@gmail.com I'm on all the socials too. I have a website which is www.teenagersuntangled.com and I think that's it for this week. I hope you have a good one Big hug from me. Bye, bye. You.
