Will My Teen Cope at Senior School? Friends, Homework & Moods

Rachel Richards: 0:00

How do we help prepare our children for the years at senior school? What do we need to do, and what do we need to stop doing? That's the topic we'll be talking about today, and we've got some great advice for you. You're listening to Parenting Teenagers Untangled, the audio hug for us parents who want to fear less and feel more wonder when we're raising our teens and tweens. I'm Rachel Richards, journalist, parent of two teenagers and two bonus daughters. Now joining me again is Catherine Radicce, who regularly collaborates with schools and exam boards nationally and internationally, offering workshops for students, training for teachers, and presentations for parents. She's the author of the Parents' Guide to Exam Stress, and our last conversation got some great feedback. So here she is again, Catherine. Thanks for joining us.

Katharine Radice: 0:42

Thank you so much for having me.

Rachel Richards: 0:43

Now, Catherine, we have a list of things that our kids need, and we want that day to be great. What are your thoughts on that? So, I think

Katharine Radice: 0:50

the first thing is that it's really natural to be worried about those practicalities, and also, if as a parent you are deep in the detail of the sports lists and the timetables and so on. Then, actually, well done, you, because the parents who are interested in getting it right, those kids are lucky. But the second thing I'd say is that the the source of that worry about getting all the uniform right and the practicalities right is we as parents wanting our children to have a really smooth, good first day, where there are no lumps and bumps along the way, and actually, secondary school just isn't like that. Whatever you do, no matter how perfect the lunchbox or you know the name tags, whatever you do, there are going to be some lumps and bumps. And so, actually, as a parent, I would encourage you when you're thinking about those practicalities to think rather than trying to make that first day perfect, be really realistic with your child and say, "Right, there's a lot that's new. We're all going to have to get used to this. We're going to do our best to follow the instructions. And actually, if we do get something a little bit wrong, and it turns out your shoes need to be different, we will adjust and we'll sort it out, because the children who go to school knowing that it's entirely likely there'll be some lumps and bumps are going to find them much easier to deal with, and where things go wrong is where parents trying to reassure their kids say things like "It's going to be great, you're going to love it, you're going to have such a good time, and actually, although that comes from a good place, if a child goes to secondary school thinking it's supposed to be great, they're supposed to love it, they're supposed to make their best friends on day one, and it doesn't happen, then that child's going to feel the problem is with them. Whereas the child who thinks actually I might get in trouble, I might do something I didn't mean to. I might realize I wasn't quite right on this thing, and that's just part of the adjustment process. That's all going to be much much easier for that child. So care about the practicalities, but also be realistic and make sure your child knows you don't have to score the bullseye on day one, and there is literally no correlation between how day one goes and the rest of school, but there is a correlation between kids who are ready for challenges handle them better than the children who think those challenges shouldn't be there in the first place.

Rachel Richards: 3:17

Yes, I love that, and that's actually been borne out by all my kids. And I think what you're talking about is that growth mindset, like instilling them with the idea that you know when things go wrong, we can change, we can grow. And thinking about other people in that way, like they may have met people where they don't like them, and then they may end up being friends with them further down the line if they give them a chance. So it's all about you know making them realize that this is just one day of many. And I do think that thinking about the uniform and what they wear on that first day, because that's quite stressful for a lot of kids. One thing I think that's important is to understand if your child is really desperate for something in particular, rather than thinking they're being very entitled and how ridiculous that they want the pink jacket rather than the whatever is understanding that their identity is totally wrapped up in certain things, certain brands, certain colors, because they say so much about them, far more than they do when we're older. Is is that something you found?

Katharine Radice: 4:15

Yeah, I think so. I think when a kid arrives in the playground, they are looking at everybody else, and they feel that everyone else is looking at them. Now, in reality, nobody is ever looking at you as much as you feel like they are. You know, always, always, always. But particularly if your kid is going to a school where they don't know many people, and therefore they know that first day is going to be walking into a playground with strangers, you know, saying to your child what would help you feel kind of more comfortable in yourself, and I use those words more comfortable quite deliberately because they're not going to feel comfortable; they're going to feel nervous, right? So, you know, what would help you feel a little bit more comfortable? And I do think if a child's. Says actually, I would really, really love to have this pair of shoes rather than that pair of shoes. You know, you don't have to be spend, spend, spend, and you know, obviously there is a limit. But if there is something that feels very important, you know, maybe it's a conversation like, okay, well, we'll do Christmas early, or you know, yes, you can do this, but then we can't do that. You know, it may seem to you as a parent a really trivial difference between one set of shoes and another, but for a you know kid going into year seven or year nine, that difference doesn't feel trivial if one pair of shoes makes them feel embarrassed, but another pair of shoes makes them feel a little bit happier. So absolutely listen to what your kid thinks is going to help them feel more at ease in their own skin on that first day, for sure.

Rachel Richards: 5:44

What's really funny is my youngest, when she went to her school, she was begging for a North Face jacket because that's what everybody was using, and I just I was like, please don't be this person, please. And we compromise by getting one that's much more eco friendly and that you know is a puffer jacket, but it's not quite that brand. But actually, you know, looking back, I'm thinking, why did I care that much? I could have just got to the North Face jacket. I can see now much better that it's really wrapped up in a whole. I belong to this tribe, and I'm this is my identity. What about extracurricular? How many clubs should our kids be signed up to? Should we be involved in in talking to them about the sorts of clubs they sign up to? What what is your strategy with that?

Katharine Radice: 6:27

So extracurricular is great, right? I would say I am an extracurricular fan, but with anything, if you're going to think something's great, you've got to know why you think it's great. So extracurricular is great because it helps kids experience a range of different environments, helps them find new skills, and as they get older, it provides a counterbalance to school. And for some kids, you know, if they're really good at dance, for example, being really good at dance is a great counterbalance to, e.g. maybe finding French a bit tough in the classroom. But all of that means the extracurricular has got to be right for your child. And if, as a parent, you just think, "Oh, extracurricular is great, full stop. Therefore, the more extracurricular, the better, full stop. Then you run the risk of it actually not being great at all, because the biggest barriers to things going well at school, are first of all being too tired, and I am not the only teacher who looks at teenagers and thinks you are too, too, too busy. So you know, if you are thinking that actually the more extracurricular the better, you know, just roll it back a bit and make sure there is enough time and space for your kid to get their homework done, go to bed, and also just relax and do a bit of nothing sometimes, but the other barrier for doing well at school is kids who feel they aren't heard and that there's no room for their thoughts and opinions to be taken seriously. So if you're the sort of parent who thinks extracurricular is great, the more the better. I'm just going to tell my child they need to do it. What you're actually doing is cementing in your dynamic a relationship where your child is going to think that you won't listen in general because they've witnessed you not listening about the fact they didn't want to do dance after all. So I think at the start of secondary school, it's really good to say to your kid, "Look, sign up for extracurricular because you might like it or you might not like it, but it's worth a try. And if you go into it in that spirit of just give it a go, then it makes it much easier for your child to try, and it also makes it much easier for them to stop. And if actually they try it and they don't like it and they want to stop, and you say as a parent or you know family member, actually tell me why you do want to give up whatever it is, and your child has good reasons, then you've actually achieved something really constructive because you've put this little mini template in of your child thinking, well, if I have reasons and I can explain them, then they'll be taken seriously, and what that does is it helps the teenager think it's worth having discussions with their parents. It's worth having their own reasons for what they want to do and what they don't want to do, and that is so powerful across the board of adolescence. So have a think about what you're trying to get from that extracurricular, but remember your child is a teenager. You know, not kind of five six anymore. You know, we're not not talking about free childcare. We're talking about actually helping your child grow into their sense of self, and therefore, anything about extracurricular does need to be a conversation, as opposed to, well, I think you should, and there's going to be no discussion because I've said so.

Rachel Richards: 9:38

Yes, and I bought all this stuff. So, what are you saying that you want to give up? No, I mean that's an awful approach, isn't it? And I

Katharine Radice: 9:45

absolutely

Rachel Richards: 9:45

found that the extracurricular I didn't realize before they went up to senior school was incredibly important for a giving them something to do. So, let's say it's lunchtime; there are lots of extracurricular. Things that happen at lunch times or happen at these break times, where they feel very, very lost. But if they're doing something, they feel purposeful, and then and then they also have touch points with other kids. And in terms of friendships, the amount of times you touch, you know, lives with other people, the more times that happens, the more opportunities you have to grow commonality with somebody else and actually grow friendships, and I think that this is one of the things we forget when it comes to extracurricular things. It's about finding stuff where they can find other people who share the same interests, which is why it's so important. If they're not really enjoying it, that we understand that because it may be that they just don't like the company of the other people who are doing it. It's not just even about the thing, and that can make a big difference if we listen to them.

Katharine Radice: 10:44

So you know, some of the most useful extracurriculars at the start of secondary school are exactly as you're saying the ones that are in the lunch hour, because they fill that kind of unstructured time where a child might not quite know what they're doing. But the ones that are really high cost, like you've got to get in the car and drive for 30 minutes, and then it's an hour and a half, and you don't get back until 9pm. You know the high cost extracurricular, not just in terms of pound sign, but you know energy and family logistics. You've got to be really sure that the high cost extracurricular are actually generating a meaningful return, and the best guide to that is going to be your child for sure.

Rachel Richards: 11:21

And and Naomi Way talks about this in our discussion, where what we need to be thinking about when they are doing these extracurricular activities is building a community with them, not just my child's a sporting, brilliant. You know, they're going to be the best on this team. Go, go, go. Because what you're teaching your child by that is just be selfish, rather than this is all about being in part of a community, and it's a different message. And it really, really matters to teenagers to hear the the positive side of community building. And one of the other things that comes up in that these early years

Katharine Radice: 11:58

is tears, just

Rachel Richards: 11:59

or anger, particularly boys. Then, then and you've got boys. They, they get this message that they're not allowed to cry about things. The only emotion they're allowed to have is anger or frustration. But those first few weeks, months, you, there's, it's a very high likelihood that you'll see some of this. What's your strategy for dealing with that? So

Katharine Radice: 12:19

you have to expect it. You know, if I'm doing a presentation for parents who are going into secondary school, one of the things I always say is there will be tears, probably on day one, certainly within the first few weeks, and there will be tears because the start of secondary school is really hard work. You know, your kid is turning up into this strange environment that's so much bigger, so much more complex, and some of it will go well, and little bits of it will feel more jagged or more difficult. And either way, your child will be trying their best to make it go well. So when they come home, because of all of that complexity and the unfamiliarity, they will be exhausted. And sometimes kids cry not because the day went badly, but just because their emotional battery has run out, you know they're just kind of gone. And as you say, some kids cry, or some kids, you know, slam doors and shout and get really kind of grumpy and you know act badly because they just ran out of energy to act well. But the thing to do as a parent is a to understand that reaction, and B, not to see it as a problem, but instead to see it as an opportunity, because I think back to my own days at school, and I think back, for example, to one of my earliest memories, and I can remember my first day at primary school. Right, so this is a really, really young memory, and my memory of my first day of primary school has two parts. The first part is I remember the thing that went wrong on that day, and we were being shown around the school, and the teacher showed us to the loo's, and this was an old Victorian primary school. And I remember her saying, probably thinking it would be a fun little joke. You know, this door is really big and really heavy. It's normally open. Who wants to see if they can manage to open it on their own? And I put my hand up, thinking it's good to volunteer. And I had a go, and I couldn't move the door. It was too big and heavy. And so I, as a little four-year-old, was terrified. You know, my kind of takeaway from that was, what happens if I end up stuck in the loo's and the door's not propped open and I can't open it, you know, absolutely terrified. And I'm sure that kind of scary memory sticks in my mind because it's symbolic of all the sorts of fears you have at school, like you know, will too much be asked of me? Will I end up on my own? You know, all of that. But it's only one bit of the memory, because welded to it is another memory that when I went home, my dad, who as a writer was a home was at home a lot, my dad had made a cherry cake, and I came home from school and my dad said, "I've made a cherry cake, and I can remember saying, "Why are we having cherry cake? You know, on a Wednesday or whatever it was, and he said. Made a cherry cake because it was your first day at school, and first days are oh my gosh,

Rachel Richards: 15:05

that's amazing!

Katharine Radice: 15:06

And so I have these two memories welded together, and I'm sure one of the reasons why I am, you know, fairly hardy, fairly resilient is because I have this template in my mind that things can be difficult, and then something better happens next. So, if your child comes home with tears and with anger, if you as a parent can say, "Oh, you know, it's not surprising you're feeling this way, the start of secondary school is hard yards. Let's do something nice. What do you need from me? Is it a hug? Do you want me just to listen? Should we just plan to have our favorite, you know, supper on Friday? You know, whatever it is, if you can actually help your child believe that those tears are natural and that at home there's safety, understanding, and support, then what you do in those early weeks is you actually create the framework for your child to feel much more confident that when bigger problems come up the pipeline, it's worth telling you about because you'll probably respond with compassion, empathy, and so on. So don't see those tears as a problem; see them as an opportunity because they really are. They're an opportunity to build something really powerful for your child.

Rachel Richards: 16:14

Yes, and I remember I would be told something that felt very emotional, particularly if it was about something another child said or whatever, they don't want you to fix it. They just want to vent. They just want to talk about it, and I think that's one of the. I think the fix it thing is very natural for us parents. Whether it's something like that, where we think, "What do I? I need to. I need to speak to the school, or something where, for example, the the kid slams the door, they suddenly have a really messy room again. They're not tidying up. You know, they've dropped all their chores. Any of those things that we think make us panic and think, "Oh, I'm now raising a slob, a horrible child. But I think that those first few weeks and months are very overwhelming, and we can't do everything, and so they're going to drop some of those balls. And rather than panic and think I have to fix this situation now, otherwise catastrophe happens and they'll be homeless. Because that's how we think, don't we? We just catastrophize ourselves to just stay away from the catastrophizing and actually accept that this is going to take a bit of time and acknowledge those feelings that they're going to be experiencing, right?

Katharine Radice: 17:22

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I've mentioned talking to the school. What is it important for us to have conversations with the school if it sounds like things are going wrong? How do we know when that should happen? I think

you have to first of all ask: 17:34

Is this a blip, or is it a problem? And school is full of blips, you know. And some of the stuff your kid tells you will probably, as a parent, make you feel quite angry. So sometimes your child will come home and they'll be in tears because they got into trouble. And based on their perspective of that situation, they think it's unfair. And the natural thing as a parent to want to do is, you know, get on the email, you know, write in and say, you know, you've done this to my child. They were in detention. It's totally unfair. They're really upset. You know, blah blah blah blah blah. And it's it's very important not to swoop in about the blips. Partly because when something goes wrong, the last thing that needs to happen is for it to become bigger. And if you complain to the school about a blip, you might think you're fixing it, but what you're actually doing is enlarging it and making it last for longer and involve more people and more churn and so on. And no kid needs a small problem to be made bigger. And also, and

Rachel Richards: 18:34

also, when we charge in there, if we do, they see us coming and they duck, or they, you know, they will put their defenses up because they'll think, "Oh my goodness, this is one of those parents. This is unreasonable. Because they do get a lot of this, and and then you you're likely to get less rather than more.

Katharine Radice: 18:51

Yeah, absolutely. And also, you know, we were talking about templates before. You know, if your kid says, "I got detention, and you suddenly go, "Ooh, you know, all kind of big and responsive, then what happens is your kid learns that if something goes a little bit wrong, you're going to react with a capital R. And I often talk to teenagers about where are the barriers for honesty, what makes you hold back, what makes you open up. And one of the things I hear all the time is I don't tell my parents things because I don't want them to react, and what they mean by that is that when a teenager is trying to get their head round a situation, they don't want to have to navigate their parents' feelings, their parents' thoughts at the same time. They just want a sounding board. So you know, if it's a blip, try and kind of get rid of that react with a capital R. Take an interest, hear it through, you know, have a hug, tell your kids, you know, some days are like that. Tomorrow's probably better. No one's perfect. Some teachers do give, you know, detentions that maybe in the calm light of day they wouldn't have done. You know, all of that. But if instead there looks like there is a problem, i.e. you know, every math. Lesson, your kid comes home in tears, and it's been going on for you know two weeks or more. That's what I kind of mean by problem, like a recurring pattern that has at least four or five iterances. Then absolutely speak to the school. But when you speak to the school, exactly as you said, if you steam in all big, then the school is going to get defensive, and you're not going to get the honest conversation that you need, because when you speak to the school, it's not about trying to get the school to change. It's about trying to make sure, as a parent, you have understood the landscape properly, and that the school have understood where your child is in that, so that you can then both work out how to respond. And if you want to get honesty from the school about what they're doing and why, they need not to be feeling defensive. So the easiest parents to be honest with are the parents who open conversations with, you know, I'm not expecting perfection. I know how difficult a job teaching is. You know, I know that this teacher in no way would want my child to be feeling like this. You know, if you can go in with respect and compassion, then it's so much easier for the school to say thank you so much for your understanding. You know, it so happens this particular teacher is you know quite new in their career. We are supporting them. You know, blah blah blah blah blah. And if you can get that honesty, which means you get the understanding, then the solutions will be much much easier to find. But if you go in all hard, you're probably going to get a kind of defensive barrier in the dialog, and that is not going to help your child.

Rachel Richards: 21:37

Yeah, and I found that where I, if I say to the school, I'm seeing this, and I know that you want the best for this situation. So, you know, what are you seeing, and can we have a conversation about that? And also, you know, does this teacher need more support? Because very often it's about the entire framework that they're in, not necessarily just one person. And it might be that they're having a hard time as well, you know. These are human beings too, aren't they? One of the things I found to be really important was that when my kids came home from school, they're just exhausted. But it it really mattered that I actually created a space for them a to relax and also for them to do their homework. And a I needed to sort of prompt them and say, when do you want to do your homework, and have a discussion about that, but it was also they were just exhausted. So, what are your strategies in terms of you know the best way of managing homework and relaxation at home?

Katharine Radice: 22:31

Oh, it's so good we're talking about this because the rest and relaxation and the homework are the two big things that you know parents have on their patch, and it makes such a difference if we can get them right. With the rest and relaxation, you know, we all know that rest and relaxation is important, but it's quite hard as a parent sometimes, particularly after a busy day. If you're still doing, you know, kind of house rituals, emails, the rest of it, you know, you watch your your son or your daughter sitting on the sofa, seemingly doing nothing, and it can be quite hard as a parent to sort of tolerate or feel okay about that rest and relaxation. So what I always say to parents is, we have to understand why it's so necessary, and we all need to rest. But teenagers particularly need to rest, not just because they're growing and they get more tired and you know all of that, but because school now is full of do this, do that, and it's probably much more full of do this, do that than it was when we were at school. You know, when I was at school, if I put my head down on the desk and daydreamed, no one really cared. But you know, no teacher now is going to let a kid get away with that. And it's not just full of do this, do that. It's kind of do this in this very particular way because we have to make sure we answer these questions this way and those questions that way, you know all of that. So, because there's been this dream of do this, do that during the school day. When kids come home, what they tend to need is just space. And I remember one of my own sons saying to me once, you know, Mum, when I get home from school, I just need to get back to a place where nobody is asking anything of me, just for a little bit of time. And actually, when you hear it phrased like that, you think,"Gosh, you know, he had a point. And so, for him, sitting on the sofa watching whatever it was, wasn't really about you know watching the program. It was just he needed to know there was going to be ring fence time when nobody was going to ask anything of him because in that asking something of someone, you know, for the average teenager, no matter how well they're doing, when adults ask things of kids, kids don't know if they're going to be able to deliver and meet those expectations. So parents, adults asking things. It might feel to you as a parent like it's just dead straightforward to say, "Can you please, you know, walk the dog? But that whole bigger picture of being asked to do things by adults, we do need to remember how exhausting and grueling that can be, and how important. Important it is to have some ring fence time where they're just going to be okay as they are. So that's the rest bit. So your kid definitely needs rest. And actually, it's really worth saying to them when you get back from school, how long do you need to decompose? Sorry, decompose. I didn't mean decompose. Decompress. You don't want to decompose on the sofa. How long do you need to decompress, right? And your kid will probably say, "Do you know what? I think I need like at least 45 minutes or an hour. And if they think they need that, say, "Great, that's going to be ring fence time. And if they know you respect their need for rest, they're going to find it much easier than to say,"Actually, now it's really fair that I also help and support, you know, the family by you know doing my bit on the chores front or you know whatever else. So have that conversation, and then separately, when it comes to homework, again, it's always worth as a parent understanding you know what the kind of needs and flavors are in this situation, because as parents we tend to roll our habits from primary school or junior school into secondary school, and if you were supporting your kid with their junior or primary school homework, you were probably focused on you know are they getting their spellings right? Did they do their handwriting properly? And therefore, when they start secondary, it's very tempting as a parent to think you need to check for quality and you need to check for quantity, i.e. your role is to kind of make sure the homework is good enough, and I'd say to parents that is not your role at all, because the teachers are going to be checking if the homework is good enough, and they will let you know if there's a problem. Your role as a parent is not to try and be the extra teacher on the side; it's instead to support your child getting something done independently, and so if instead you say to your child, "Right, how long do you think you need for homework? and you'll probably get some sort of homework timetable from the school that give you a rough idea, and you say, "Right, okay, so on a Monday it looks like this, Tuesday, and you ring fence that time, and you agree that at you know 630 or whatever it is, the books come out, and actually at 730, they're going to go away, whether it's finished or not. So that homework is boundaryed, so your child knows that it's sort of ring fenced and you know safe and boundary, and it's not just going to spill. And if you focus on, we just need to make sure there's space to get it done, and you check they start, and you encourage them to stop, and you respect that time, and you don't say you're going to interrupt them or whatever, and it's in you know a kind of clean, clear space. Then you're actually facilitating the doing, and if you take the heat out of I need to check if you're doing it well enough, you'll make it much easier for your kid to be honest. So the other problem with checking it's not good enough is that you close the conversation down? Because if a child feels scrutinized, if they think you are on the watch for it to go wrong, and if it goes wrong, then it's a problem with them and their attitude. What's going to happen is they're not going to be honest with you about the things they find difficult, because the things they find difficult are going to be completely intrinsically linked with things that go wrong. So, if you want to encourage a constructive relationship with homework, don't focus on are you doing it well enough. Just focus on you have to get started, then you have to stop and let the quality conversations be handled by the teacher, and then you'll have a much, much, much better dynamic at home about homework.

Rachel Richards: 28:26

Yes, it's like that therapy triangle because there are three of you in this, and you want to be on the side with the kid, not on the other side, so that they feel supported. And I, I always remember what David, Doctor David Jaeger, said in in my discussion with him about the adolescent brain and his the point that really landed was that once kids become adolescents, so from 10 years on, they are really driven by status and respect, and we can we can undermine that and then end up on the wrong side of it, or we can play into that by actually giving them the status and respect, and saying, you know, I think you can do it. I'm just trying to make sure that we are finding the right time for it, and that gives them status too. Because you say, what's going to work for you? You know, what what timing works for you. And also, I remember talking to Dr. Rebecca Winthrop about the disengaged teen, and one of the things she said is a really vital role for us parents is that we understand the role of hobbies because school is so controlled now. We're so much on a treadmill, and actually having the other things that helps them decompress. Not just watching TV, but I found with my youngest one of the most helpful things for her was to say what other things interest you. Oh, I like art, but I'm not good at it. That doesn't matter. We don't care about whether you're good at it. If you enjoy it, I want you to do it. So I'm going to get out some equipment, and you can go and do a bit of that to decompress. And actually, that's been a really, really wonderful way for her to explore other things that she enjoys, rather than just this treadmill, which is what it can feel like. And particularly if they are struggling with an academic. Syllabus, and it doesn't come naturally to them because some kids find it a bit easier than others. They just spend their life feeling bad about themselves. Absolutely, and

Katharine Radice: 30:08

actually, if you have a child who's finding school difficult, then you know lots of parents think what they need to do is strip away the extracurricular and up the amount of homework hours to try and make school go better. But if you take that approach, all you do is you make your child spend longer in that pool of"I'm not good enough, and that is not going to help any child grow. Exactly. So actually, if you have a child where they are finding school tough, and you know lots of kids do find school tough, then actually the idea of ring fenced stopping points for homework is really important because a child who hates doing their science homework, if their parent says, "Look, you know, I get the fact you hate science homework. It's not your favorite thing. So what we're going to do is it starts at this time, and at this time it stops, whether or not you've finished it. That might feel counterproductive as a parent. You might think you're basically saying, "Oh, you can just not finish it. But if you put a stopping point defined by time, not completion or quality, you actually make it much easier for your child to start. Because if you say to your child,"You've got to do it until it's finished or until it's good enough, that is a finishing line that is completely amorphously somewhere in the future. Exactly. So the child who finds it hard to start typically finds it hard to start because they're not confident about when they're going to get to stop. And if you put really clear stopping points in, it's loads easier to start. And if your child finds science horrible, maybe science is never going to be for them. So say, look, you've got to sweat your way through-you know, 30 minutes, 40 minutes worth of science homework. But on the day where you do science, let's have the really fun thing on that day as well, because I recognize you hate it. So let's have the fun counterbalance. And again, that child is going to find it five times easier to be motivated to slog on and endure the homework they don't like than the child who's been told you've got to sit here until it's good enough and it's been finished. So yeah, that might seem counterintuitive, but I can tell you 100% it works.

Rachel Richards: 32:03

I agree with you. I totally agree with you. And what about getting your kids to talk?

Katharine Radice: 32:07

I start my book with the idea of most teenagers tell their parents nothing about school, and I hear, you know, every parents' evening I do. Some parent says to me, you know, every parent's evening as a teacher, I do right. Some parents says to me,"My kid tells me nothing about school. So, if you are a parent whose teenager already has ended up in the yes, fine grumpy grunting response when you try and find it out, you are not alone. That's entirely normal. But equally, if you can try and build conversation structures to keep conversation going, you're going to find it much easier to help your child through, and the best way to build conversation structures is not to think, "How am I going to get my child to tell me about the big stuff? You know, are they going to tell me if they were offered drugs? Are they going to tell me if you know they're going into something really difficult, like you know, self harm or whatever? Instead, think, "How can I nurture the easy, Straightforward conversations, because a kid who is used to talking to their parents about anything is going to be much more likely to believe their parent will listen positively about the bigger stuff. So the

top tips are: 33:15

first of all, decide your time. Like you need rituals, you need moments in the week where you gather as a family, and you talk, and you know meal times are great. Maybe it's car journeys, you know, maybe it's favorite TV shows, you know. But you need moments where you know intentionally, you as a family or you as a parent and child are going to be having a conversation, and let that conversation be really trivial nine times out of 10. So we used to do this thing over supper called you know the daily dose of daily details, and I would ask my kids completely and utterly trivial questions like what was the lunch, what lesson came first, which teacher had the nicest jacket or whatever. I mean, totally trivial questions. Oh, I

Rachel Richards: 33:53

like that one, random ones. Yeah,

Katharine Radice: 33:54

totally random. You know, and I used to ask them not because those answers are particularly you know useful, but because it meant that we got this rhythm of every day, we would talk about their days for half an hour, and if you have that rhythm of easy dialog, where you ask questions that are straightforward to answer, as opposed to "Is French going okay? "Is French going okay? is not a question that's easy to answer. It's very loaded. It's very loaded, and also your child won't know for sure if French is going okay because they are the student, not the teacher. So if you ask easy, low stakes questions at regular times, then you're going to find you keep dialog open during those year 789, phases, and that means when you're into the really tricky waters of year 10 upwards, it's going to be easier then for the bigger stuff to start coming out.

Rachel Richards: 34:45

Yeah, and the car, the car journey is great. Car is great. Car is great. And just before bed, when you're desperate to go to sleep, they frequently want to talk about things. Then, one of the things that I've got in terms of an episode, and I'll put the link in the podcast notes. It's a. Two specific talking techniques, and one is super silence, and the other is active listening. And it's you prompt them, you ask them a question, and then you just stay silent. You don't try and you know dig too deep. You just go, uh huh, right, yeah. And then and the active listening is where you just sum up what you think they've said, because then they might correct you if they thought you got it wrong, or they'll just say,"Yeah, yeah, you got it. But then they subtly understand that you are listening and you you're not overreacting, and that you care. Because my daughter, similar thing to you, said to me

a while back: 35:32

"The reason my friends don't talk to their parents is because they either think the parents don't care, or because the parents are going to overreact and they don't want to have to deal with that. So this is the this is what we're trying to get through. Like you said, those rituals where they realize that when they say something, you're just going to go, oh right, oh if if anybody wants prep sheet on how to not overreact, because I also have an episode on that, but I've written some stuff on Substack. Do just ping me with emotions on teenagersuntangled@gmail.com, and I will send you that PDF because it's really, really handy, and it's something that I've had to learn as a parent. An awful lot of what's happening is it's not really our kids; it's how we feel about what's happening. Are there any tips or strategies that you have for parents dealing with their feelings?

Katharine Radice: 36:15

Yeah, so I think it's helpful to think about conversations in several phases because if you think of it as several phases, then it makes it a little bit easier to contain your response. Because of course, what you want to do as a parent is you want to make things better, and you are going to get to the phase where you can help make things better. But it's a couple of steps down the line, and it's worth remembering. The first phase is you have to be grateful that your child has told you something, and if your child has told you something, even if it's really awful, like by the way, mum, I need to tell you that in fact I haven't done any homework for whatever for weeks, and I have just failed my test. Whatever it is, something that kind of makes your heart sink. The first thing you need to do is you say thank you, thank you for being honest with me, because if you can just thank your child, and your child knows that you will be grateful for the truth, even if it's uncomfortable. Again, they're going to feel better about telling you. Make it easy

Rachel Richards: 37:09

for them not to lie.

Katharine Radice: 37:11

Exactly. And if they've told you something really difficult and kind of knotty and ugly and awful, you know, thank you for having the courage to be honest with me. I know how difficult it is to talk about problems. That is transformative. So that kind of gratitude, then absolutely, there has to be the act of listening, the silence, and the act of listening. You know, if your child says something before you respond, pause and let your first thing then be: say, anything else you want to add to that? And at the point where your child tells you they've got nothing else to say, then absolutely the act of listening. Can I just check what I think I've heard is, and you have to play it back because if you've heard something different, then that needs to be corrected. Otherwise, you're going to be responding to the wrong thing. And the child who knows their parents have actually understood what they wanted them to understand. They're going to be much more receptive to the advice. And then once you've done the gratitude, the silence, the active listening, then that final phase is right. Let's work out what we're going to do, and then you absolutely can move into how we're going to make this better. But it has to be a partnership because your child is a teenager, and if your child was five, I'd be giving different advice. But because your child is a teenager, you've got two projects running in parallel. One is making that problem better, but the second project is helping your child learn how to solve their own problems. So it has to be it has to be a partnership. So you have to say, okay, here's where we are. What do you think we could do that might work? Ask your child first, because if they've got a good idea and it comes from them, then win-win-win. You've kind of got the best possible solution. It doesn't need to come from you. If they say, "I just don't know, Mum, don't know what to do, then say,"Okay, I've got some ideas, and try and give a couple of options. Because if you give a couple of options, then your child has room to choose the option they think is going to work, and again, that's going to mean that they feel more comfortable about bringing difficult stuff to you because they know they're going to have some degree of agency over what happens next. What teenagers fear is the parent is just going to go steamrolling off down a particular direction, and the parent, and the child won't be able to stop them. So give them a couple of options, do the talking through, and if you both hit a dead end because it's a really big and difficult problem, then loop in professionals say, you know what? Neither of us are sure what we're going to do next here, so let's ask someone whose job it is to understand what to do. Let's contact the teacher. You know, let's loop in kind of professional medical or psychotherapeutic care, or you know whatever it is, but be patient about getting to that solution stage. Let it be a partnership, and don't think that you, the parent, have to solve it yourself because you'll get better growth for your child if they're part of it, and you'll get better solutions if. Recognize when professional expertise is actually going to be what you need.

Rachel Richards: 40:05

Yes, and and we need to avoid learnt dependence, where they they they start realizing that every problem that they have, someone else is going to fix it for them. That's not helpful to them at all. Let's touch on friendships because friendships are really really tricky, aren't they? I think that's we send our kids to school thinking, oh well, I really want them to do well, and I want them to go to a good college, or I want them to get a great job at the end of this, or whatever. Quite often, we're focused on that side of it, and the kids are just thinking, how do I make friends? It's it's such a vital part of the school experience, and actually, it wasn't until I had friends that I really wanted to turn up at school because I used to just basically bunk off a lot. It was a hostile environment, hostile territory. What would you say to parents about friendships and how to manage the friendship turbulence, which is going to be inevitable?

Katharine Radice: 40:54

Yeah. So you know, because we're talking about starting secondary school, you know, I'm going to give an answer that's very much geared towards that kind of year seven, year eight, year nine terrain, and the first thing is, as a parent, you need to make it safe for it to be a little bit wobbly, and what that means is you've got to avoid pressure that it has to go well, and it's really tempting as a parent to say, "Have you made any friends yet? But that question, "Have you made any friends yet? is really pressurizing because it's full of expectation of the answer needs to be yes. So in those very early stages, it's much better just to ask questions that take all the heat out of you know Have you made any friends, and just say things like, "Oh, who did you chat to at lunch today, or what did you do at lunch today, or who did you sit next to in mats, and ask questions that don't have that word friend in there anywhere, but questions that are interested in all those interactions happening? And then, if they say, "Oh, you know, I sat next to whoever, then because you know your kid is still quite young, you can say, "Oh, what did you find out about them? What do they like? And if you show that you are interested as a parent in knowing about who that friend is, you're implicitly teaching your child that it's really worth being interested in someone else, and that means, in a very soft, gentle way, you're going to be upskilling them in asking the sorts of questions that actually start to nurture and build a friendship. And then you can also say things like,"Did they do anything that you really liked? Did you say anything nice to them? If your kid says, "Oh, they've got a great pencil case" or whatever, you can say, "Did you tell them that? And again, do it in a very kind of low stakes way, but through your role modeling, helping your child realize the sorts of you know focuses, questions, interests that do build friendship. So first of all, let it be kind of an organic process, take the heat out of it, and then secondly, be really realistic because, as you said, friendship turbulence is a big thing, and you know I love that label, and as a parent, it's quite useful to have a label that normalizes it. And you know if someone says, "Oh, you know, I didn't have anyone to talk to at lunch, say, "Oh God, you know you're in the mix of all that friendship turbulence. It's so natural. It's so normal. Everyone's finding themselves. If you as a parent are unfazed by it, your child is much less likely to be phased by it. So be realistic, be normal, and then picking up on a theme. You know, earlier in this conversation, if after several weeks, you know, two weeks, three weeks, your kid says again, you know, I didn't talk to anyone, I don't know anyone, then loop the teachers in. Because one of the ways where schools have got so much better is that the pastoral care at school is so much more geared around understanding how, as schools, we need to help young people build friendships and find people to talk to, and so on. So loop them in if you need to, but in the short term, depressurise it. Let it take a bit of time. Yes, I mean they do notice. If you loop the teacher in, they will know that you've looped the teacher in because the teacher they're never that subtle about it. They try to be subtle; they're not subtle. So just know that your child will probably realize that you've now looped in the teacher by doing chat with them first.

Rachel Richards: 44:10

Yeah, yeah, and and just reminding them how to evaluate friendships rather than thinking it's an audition for themselves. Looking at well, how does this friendship feel for me? Does this work for me? Because I think girls are terrified of being friendless. I think Andrew Hampton, the ex-headmaster, talks about this in Girls on Board. It's a program that he does in schools, and he just said boys fear shame, girls fear not having a friend, and they feel like they're in shark-infested waters, and they'll climb on any lifeboat rather than be in the water, I have actually got an episode about these difficult friendship groups that can can be created in these early stages and or through throughout those sort of early teen years, particularly for girls and how to help your child navigate them. Because being able to spot specific behavior can give them a language for being able to value. Whether that's actually working for them, and and and whether they need to withdraw from from a particular group, because I think some of these big groups can be really difficult to to navigate. I think this is really really helpful, and you've covered a huge amount of material there. Hopefully, parents feel a lot more prepared for these these years as they tumble on, and I think some of this is not just for when they very first start school. I think as we keep going through school, it still can be rocky. For me, it was around about 16 that things started to settle down. Was it turbulent for you at all? I

Katharine Radice: 45:31

think different children are different. I think you know, with one of my kids, the turbulence was earlier than with another one. I think once you are beyond 16, you know, once you're the other side of GCSEs. It's a not necessarily calmer terrain, but it's more known. You know what you've got from 11 to 16 is this, you know, rapid evolution of changing self, where your child doesn't yet know themselves either, and also they're still working out where they sit relative to others and so on. So I think the kind of key stage three, key stage four, you know, starts secondary through to GCSEs, is a particularly complex time, both for teenagers and therefore also for the parenting of teenagers. You know, without shadow of a doubt, is complex.

Rachel Richards: 46:14

Right. If people want to get hold of you

Katharine Radice: 46:18

or

Rachel Richards: 46:18

read your book, what's the best way?

Katharine Radice: 46:21

I'm on Substack. So if you just put my name into Substack, I'll pop up. I've got a website again. If you Google my name, I pop up, and my book is available through all the standard book outlets. You know, Amazon, Blackwells, whatever. The Parents' Guide to Exam Stress looks at that whole secondary school journey, including there's a couple of chapters that are very directed to the start of secondary school, yeah, and it's really good. So I'll put a link in the podcast notes. If you found this useful, as always, please send it right now to at least one other person who's also got a kid starting at secondary school or who's just going through the turbulence. You can contact me on teenagersuntangled@gmail.com. My website is the same teenagersuntangled.com,

Rachel Richards: 47:01

and that my Substack. Same again, but on Substack. So it's very easy to get in contact with me. Ask me questions. Ask Catherine questions. It's it'll be very interesting to hear what your thoughts are. That's it for this week. Thank you very much for listening this far. Big hug. Bye bye.