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Rachel, hello and welcome to teenagers.
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Untangled the audio hug for parents going through the teenagers. I'm Rachel Richards, journalist, parenting coach, mother of two teenagers and two bonus daughters. Now, did you know that women's happiness has been declining since the 1970s in spite of the growth in freedom, equality and opportunities? It's led some to argue that feminism has gone too far, and women would be happier with the role of only building a home and family. The truth is, most mothers have felt at some point that they're falling short and what they should be achieving, either as a mother, working woman, or just as a female, living in an era where we have so much more than our grandmothers, it's just not enough. That's why I thought you'd love to hear from Dr Giselle Goodwin, who's done extensive research into what's being termed the female paradox.
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As a working mother of teenagers herself, she is in the perfect position to help us think through how we should frame what's happening and what we should be telling our own teens about a woman's place in the world. Giselle, thank you so much for joining us.
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Thank you, Rachel, it's a real pleasure to be here speaking to you
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now you were originally a woman who anticipated continuing work and having a baby. This was a brilliant bit in your book. Can you tell us how that went?
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Not as expected yet. I think I had expectations that were very different to the way it played out so similar to yourself, Yes, Mom of teenagers, I'm Gen X very much. Grew up in a culture that said, Yeah, women can have it all at perfectly possible to balance career and family and, you know, get in the world of work, make it happen. And I very much bought into that, certainly throughout my 20s, that wasn't an issue. And it was only really when I became a mother in my 30s that I started thinking, right, how does this work? At the time, when my first child was born and me and my husband had started a business together, so I actually thought, again, naively, this was going to be pretty easy, because we were just going to juggle the kids the way we juggled the business. Yes, yes.
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Add a baby into the mix, bring the baby along, we were going to be fine. They just sleep, right?
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Oh yeah, they just sleep, definitely in the first few months. And that's not the way it turned out.
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So, yeah, so my expectations were just, I think, yeah, naive I was. I was naive about the physicality of it. You know, I was very sick during my pregnancy, so I had that hyperemesis. So I was I was sick for nine months, then the birthing, the breastfeeding, all the rest of it. So the physicality, I underestimated the emotional stuff that little baby arrives. And, my goodness, those intensities of emotion, fear, the joy, the love, the worry, all of it, you know, it's a lot, and also what I really underestimated. Because, as I say, I thought I was in a very kind of egalitarian partnership, certainly at work, you know. So our backgrounds have been, I was a pharmacist, he was an accountant, and this business that we started together had been going three years, and we worked really well together at work. And, you know, I was sales and operations, he was kind of a bit more finance strategy, and we kind of had this great team thing going on. So when it became to parenting, I just thought, well, that's fine. We will figure this thing out. But the thing I was naive about was this weight of societal expectations. Yes, what it was for me, particularly as a mother, and that this business about figuring out work and family and how that was going to unravel was really on me, and I have not expected that. So I hadn't expected how difficult it was, and I hadn't expected that this was my thing to sort out, that I would that I found challenging. And I can tell you, I can remember going back so so the other thing was, because we were self employed, the business had been going, you know, pretty well. We had now members of staff. So when our first born was 11 weeks old, I needed to go back to work. We both knew that there was no maternity pay.
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There was no paternity pay. The business was three years in, still relatively young. The staff needed coaching and direction. I needed to be there.
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So I knew I needed to go and that first week of going back, I can remember going to this particular business meeting, and it was with a client at the time who was, you know, quite a prestigious client. It was a big retail client, and we had to go into a presentation at their head office. Just remember rocking up to this presentation.
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And you know that feeling of being like paddling really quickly under the water, like swan on the surface, but like, really just trying to keep it together and pretending you've got the whole big smile out, big smile. I had the suit on, you know, I was wearing this I remember going to this meeting.
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I was wearing this purple silk blouse. It was really nice to.
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Little ruffle collar, a black blazer. I was in the zone anyway. I was driving to this meeting, and I took with me one of the members of staff who I was trying to kind of coach to take on quite a lot of responsibility with this particular client, because I'd been the key contact, which is why I needed to turn up to this meeting. So it was very hard to hand over, but I was trying to hand over, and this is what I was doing. And I hadn't really, well, I definitely not told the staff obviously knew I had a baby. The clients definitely didn't. I didn't tell the clients I'd been off with the baby. I was still busy answering the phone. I didn't want anybody to really know. Anyway, went to do this presentation. On the way to the presentation, I leaked.
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And is it saying? Like, I like to say I was leaking anyway, like, this is a period of my life where my eyes were leaking a lot, my brain was leaking a lot, and in this particular instance, my boobs were leaking, no. So I leaked on the way to this business meeting, and my beautiful purple flows, I just knew that was coming all the way through my breast, pads, my bra, the purple blouse, and thank God it was a black blazer, and I had this black blazer over it, and I had to stand up and do this presentation. But oh my god, I just remember thinking, like, like, Is this me? Like, what am I doing wrong? Yes, how is it?
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How is it that I can't get this together? Because the other thing was, I looked at people around me, and it seemed they kind of had this stuff figured out. I was thinking, Why? Why am I finding this hard? Yeah, and I don't really know the answer. I don't know the answer as to how to make this better, but this, this is a lot, and it's not working. I knew that.
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I think that's one of the key things that really we need to talk about, which is how we look around and we think, Well, other people seem to be doing this. Okay, so maybe it's me who's broken. And you came on to then researching what's called the female paradox, and you wrote this fantastic book that I've read.
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Can women really have it all?
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What? What sort of led you into that, I
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think, my own personal struggles. So as I say, I had that business. I had that recruitment business for a number of years. And, you know, Rachel, I liked work. Work gave me lots. I really enjoyed work.
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I got a sense of pride, satisfaction, enjoyment. It was very pro social. It was, you know, gives you money. You know, there's so many great things about being employed and having that sense of purpose and achievement and something that's going on and interest. And so I enjoyed work. But I think I spent most of my 30s feeling, yeah, exactly as you've said about this cost. I could term it in my research, this cost of comparison, right? That other people seem to have this right.
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I haven't quite got this right.
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I have two young daughters. What do I even tell them about the world of work? What do I even say to them about how this all manifests, how this plays out.
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And I actually got the opportunity in 2018 to sell the recruitment company. I actually had an online pharmacy as well.
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So sold the businesses, and I went back to do some writing, and I think that's something I've always enjoyed, and I use it as a way to express myself.
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And, you know, journaling and things. And I went to some writing conferences. And at this particular writing conference, I met a woman who was a professor of women and work, that's what she studied. Oh, wow. And she ended up interviewing me about my businesses, and then she invited me to do this research with her. So she said, you know, would you ever consider doing a PhD? And that's how I ended up doing all this research under her guys, and she specialized in, as I say, women, women and work. And my particular area of expertise that I then went to study was women work and well being, and how it all played out, and what the struggles are, and how, how we make it better.
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So I loved the research. Love the research. Found it absolutely fascinating. And then, as you've said, I've written this book off the back of it with the hope of just maybe helping other women. And it was my way, you know, processing it myself. But the idea was to help other people navigate what's really thorny and complicated and nuanced. And you know, there's not, there's not one easy answer, but there's certainly a way of understanding of how we've got here and what we need to do to make it
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better. Yeah, and it's interesting, isn't it?
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Because we've allowed women out into the workforce. In fact, now it's fully expected that women contribute to the workforce and needed, because we have an economy that's we don't have enough young people coming through. So we really need all hands on the tiller, and yet they still have all those other responsibilities that haven't really been spoken about enough and are not being picked up elsewhere. And men don't have in the UK, at least proper paternity leave. So there are structures of. Around us that stop us from having this freedom. But could you talk more about this, this idea that we have got freedom to choose and the reality that comes with that? Yes,
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okay, so the female happiness paradox is this body of research that now tells us that in the last 50 years, what we're finding is that women are now less happy than they were 50 years ago, both absolutely and relative to men.
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So as you've kind of indicated there, as well, well, we think, Well, maybe the best solution is, you know, back to the kitchen. Thanks very much. This is all a lot, and it's more complicated than that, right? So there's, there's three reasons we look at in the research as to why this is the case. So the first is, as you say, it's now mandated. So the expectation for women is that you will now do both paid work and domestic primary domestic caregiving as well. So we have a diff very different expectation than we used to have 100 years ago. So 100 years ago, there's about 25% of women in the workforce. We're now looking at 76% of women in the workforce, compared with 92% of men. So the standard way that we're living and dictated by societal norms, dictated by finances, is that absolutely women are now working. And the researcher Arlie Hochschild coined this term in the late 80s, which she called the second shift. So this is one of the reasons responsible for the female happiness paradox. So the fact that we've got this more autonomy, but we've got less happiness, and she's saying it's because we have less time. So women used to have much less money than men. We still have less money than men, but we also have significantly less time.
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And she's saying that the second shift is the idea that women are going out and doing a full day at work and then coming home and still as primary caregivers in the domestic care doing their second shift. So that's one of the reasons, is this time constraint that's leading to a poor well being for women. The second reason is this business about expectations. So we've got this double whammy of increased expectations of what life should be giving us and not enough support, right? So we're now comparing ourselves to not only the woman next door, but the man in the corner office. We have an expectation of all these different things, and in a digital media age, all you need to do is look around you or like open Instagram, you can see the variety of ways that you're failing. There's so many ways to fail at things, you know? Yeah, so our increased expectations of what's required of us, and yet this lack of support, we've lost our village, we've lost our community, and we don't have those social structures in place to support the very important, really intensive, yeah, hugely crucial job of caregiving, and we don't give it enough appreciation. And then, I guess the third thing that they look at in relation to the female happiness paradox is the fact that more choices mean more pressure. And I think for many women, choice is wonderful, but it's a bit like going into a restaurant and they've got this, like, 20 page menu. It's like, great, I've done an episode.
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Yeah,
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it's always impossible to decide, like, and then yes, I'd like a
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bit of this and a bit of that, and, like, it's, yeah, yeah. So more choices, more pressure. So this is not to say we want to take away choice, not to say choice is bad. We all need to do this, but it's to be cognizant. I think that that choice leads to pressure, and it's not a wonder.
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I think the big relief for me was when I first met this professor that I talked about, when you know that studies that I studied under, I always just, just that first conversation with her, she said this thing to me, which is, Giselle, you know, you are taking personal responsibility for going, I can't manage this, like I'm not getting this right. She said, for a societal issue, she said there are bigger structures at play. There is this, yes, that we're all swimming in, and you're taking personal responsibility, like, I'm just the big weakling here. And it's a bigger thing. It's a bigger thing. She said, It's not you so true. It's society. This is, this is kind of so I think it's helpful to realize that, I think that, for me, was helpful to even just understand, you know, yes, okay, this is how this is where we are.
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Oh, and that, I want to hug you for saying that it's so important. It's so important. And I, and I also, I mean, you were talking about our expectations. Went through the same thing, where you expect, you not really given enough information about how difficult it's going to be or what the challenges are, and then the reality is very different. And I loved the I first came across mo gold at, is it mo gold at, in your book and principle, and can you give us? This equation for happiness.
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He's wonderful. So he has this thing, if you ever follow him, he wants to reach and do 1 billion people happy. That's his mission in life. And he's done this research into wellbeing, and he has this equation. So he says happiness is greater than or equal to your perceptions of the events in your life, minus your expectations of how life should behave.
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Brilliant. It's brilliant because that is so much, so much of what we feel about our world is to do with what we think we should have and what we expected not to do with the reality. I mean, it can be the reality, but you can see this explains why some people can be having a very difficult life but be happy, and others can. Yeah. And can you also explain to us the Paula principle and its implications for working moms? I'd love to
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Yeah. So the Paula principle is really interesting. It's the Paula principle is a term coined by researcher Tom Schiller. So he describes this as mothers who often take jobs below their level of skill, expertise, experience and often interest, yes, in order to accommodate flexible working for the purposes of childcare, typically. And what's interesting about the way he frames it is that he describes it in direct opposition or contrast to something called The Peter Principle. And the Peter Principle is a work organization theory from the 1960s and that describes the phenomenon where workers, which that meant, typically men, in hierarchical organizations, would be promoted beyond their level of skill, expertise, experience in these hierarchical organizations. So the idea is that the polar principle is women taking jobs below their skill, expertise and experience, in contrast to men getting promoted beyond. It happens to so many women, because when they get to the point that I was in that meeting with, you know, leaky boobs and leaky everything, and thinking, I'm not quite sure how this is going to work, so many women go, Well, this is this is crazy.
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This is leading me to burnout.
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So we know that working mothers with two children are up to 40% more stressed than women without children, and this shows up in like biological markers in their bodies. And they do this research, it's cortisol markers they're measuring right. And we know that working mothers are up to 28% more likely to burn out than working fathers, and that full time work certainly work over 55 hours a week. Paid employment over 55 hours a week can lead to less well being. So we know that this kind of burnout culture leads to many women saying, can't do this. I can't do this. I'm not interested in doing this. I'm not what's the point of it all?
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So it does tend to be typically, women who take a step back in their career. Yeah, but what's interesting about that, or what's difficult about that, is that, as we've said, Work can bring us so much. And this is the balance that's really, really difficult to to tread, is that we know that work leads us certainly work that we enjoy.
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And this is the difficulty. If you're taking jobs just because it fits in with childcare, you're not going to get the same sense of purpose, engagement, achievement, well being, and, you know, benefit from those particular roles as you would if it was something that kind of engaged, and use your particular skill sets and and so taking work Just to reduce work family conflict is difficult. It's what many women choose to do, but it comes with trade offs as well.
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And I think that is where we kind of think that's the panacea that, you know, we'll do work part time, and that'll be fine, but I think we also need to be aware that it comes with certain trade offs, partly the pay gap, partly the idea that even when you do work part time, sometimes that full time domestic load.
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And let's face it, what you end up with is a job and a half. You end up with a full time job at home and a part time job at work. And so you end up often not necessarily, fixing the no and
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then you also are comparing yourself with all the mums at home who don't have a job and falling short, and then all the people at work who don't have to look after the kids and falling short because you're in a part time position.
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So actually, that just can increase the amount of opportunities to compare yourself with other people and feel bad about yourself
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absolutely, and it's, it's just yeah, that brings you full circle background to that, what I call the cost of comparison, yeah, that we feel like we can't do right for doing wrong, and that chronic gifts that so many, so many
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but it's interesting because, you know, listening to you and I'm thinking, the thing is, it's not because we're women, it's because of the way things.
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Things are set up like it's not that women can't, you know, where women are in these high pressure roles, that they can't do this. It's because of the expectation that they should be doing everything else as well.
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And there's, there isn't the support there, really, yeah, I mean, improved,
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absolutely.
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It's structural in society, right? So we talk about the idea so greedy jobs is one issue. So greedy jobs is that term by The Economist Claudia Goldin, and she talks about part of the reason for the gender pay gap is these really big jobs in terms of how they work. Yeah, it is impossible to be a primary caregiver and do a greedy, big job that requires lots of time and travel and all the rest of it. And also the ideas you say that primary caregiving is still very much a mothering role, and there's far fewer couples that treat it as a you know, at this point in our lives, we're both going to take a slight step back, spend more time with the children, and then we'll both increase in their careers.
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Typically, what still happens is that it's the mum that takes the penalty, and there's consequences for that. So women still today have less time and less money overall. And there's a great there's a great journalist, actually, who's written a book called fair play, Eve rodsky, and she says that's not equity either. So this idea that women are now saying, Well, I have less time overall and still less money. That's that's that doesn't work either.
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Yeah, absolutely. And you said that in your book, you were talking about having a chat with a friend and your friend, saying, I would definitely not encourage my daughter to become a surgeon because of all those sacrifices and these kind of high level jobs that are hard to access anyway. Why should women be in high level jobs? What's the benefit to that? Because there are people who'd say, Well, why don't you just take a step back, and it's fine. I remember a piece in your book where you were talking to a friend and she just said, feminism is just rubbish. I would never encourage my daughter to become a surgeon, because that's not a role that you'd want her to do all these top flying roles. What are your thoughts about that? Why should women be in those high level jobs?
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Okay, so there's two ways we can approach this. Number one is from an individual perspective, and number two is from a societal perspective. So yeah, that conversation I had with my friend was really interesting, because I do remember thinking at the time where she was like, Yeah, I'd never tell my daughter to be a doctor. Yeah, it's just just too difficult. Um, and I remember thinking, so what do you tell them? How is it this square, this circle? What do we say to our children? So number one, individual, as individuals, it's really important for women to have financial independence.
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So we are still in a place today where money doesn't buy us happiness, but it does buy us choice, sure, and we need to have that choice and autonomy.
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And we're still in a position where we have around a 15% pay gap, a 20% investment gap, a 38% pension gap when we get to older age, which is enormous. So women live, yeah, far more likely to live in poverty than men, far more likely in terms of single parents, 85% single parents are mothers. So it's very, very important that we have something that we can rely on, and that we do have financial independence.
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So that's the first thing. The second thing is, if we think in a broader, kind of more societal perspective, when women are not represented at the top of professions such as policing, law, politics, health care, our needs are not considered fully in society. So when to think about things tech, absolutely, yeah, think about all that AI stuff at the moment, you know, I had a lady who I interviewed for my research say to me that metas AI board is all male. And she said, It's all white male.
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They've just hired an all white male board for AI. And she said, Imagine if that board was all mothers. How different AI might look, how different technology might you know that was such an very interesting percent perspective. I thought so, yeah.
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So when you have women in these top positions, things get accounted for in a different way. So if we just look at the example of health care, right?
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So there's an enormous gender gap in health care, which means in part, that women spend up to 25% more of their lives in greater ill health than men. And we know that clinical research, for instance, only became mandatory for women in drug trials in America in 1993 and so because women's bodies are complicated, we have varying hormones, it's much less expensive to do drug trials on men, because you don't have to help with these hormonal variations. But the consequence of this is real life, just in terms of our knowledge, in terms of certain conditions, you know, it still takes us up to 10 years to get endometriosis diagnosed, but in relation to things like drug trials, so that drug, you know, the sleeping. Zolpidem zolfetone, it's called and in the UK, it was only a few years ago that the FDA had to halve the dose for women compared with men, and the reasoning was that they were having car accidents.
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So women were having car accidents having taken their sleeping tablet the night before. And it then came to light that, yes, they were taking the men's dose. They weren't metabolizing it in the same way the half life was was different, and it was staying in their system longer, and car accidents were happening. So these things have real life consequences in terms of how they play out. So we need women in drug trials, but women in health care, and women at the top of the profession. So we know it's wonderful that you've got 50% of doctors in general now are women, but only 15, one five of the top surgeons and people at the top of the profession are women. So we're definitely moving, you know, we're definitely moving compared to where we were, but you haven't got people in those very top echelons. So healthcare is one, politics is another. And you know, women's they do. They bring different lived experiences to issues like childcare, domestic violence, reproductive rights, caregiving, flexible work, how society should operate. And so when you have a better, broader representative people at the top to make the laws that we need to make to Yeah, to make things just more equitable. So when women aren't there, it affects us all.
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What would you say to men who complain masculinity is under attack?
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We're losing our roles. What on what are you expecting from us
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anymore?
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It's such a pervasive dialog, isn't it? So we hear this a lot.
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It's, it's, it's a result of social media and polarization.
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It's a result of a culture we're living in where I think there is credence to this idea that everybody's roles are now topsy turvy, and everybody's wondering, what's my place and where do I fit? And, you know, I think, I think it's understandable that people feel like that. But in terms of this idea that feminism has gone too far, I mean, clearly it hasn't.
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Absolutely clear it clearly it hasn't. If you look globally, for instance, at, you know, we can talk about the 640 million women worldwide who are child brides, two 30 million women who suffer female genital mutilation, the 120 9 million girls worldwide who are denied an education. If we look closer to home, we know that 25% of women in the UK experience domestic abuse, 70% experience sexual harassment. We know the gender pay gap is still around 15% so this kind of gone too far narrative. Part of it's a bit of a backlash. Part of it is absolutely, you know, we're all struggling to find our way, but it's definitely perpetuated by social media. And it's going in more extreme ways, even more quickly. Um, recently, so like there was a, there was a survey by King's College in 2024 and they found that 47% of the UK population think that feminism now gone far enough, and that's risen from 29% who thought that in 2019 so 47% in 2024 29% in 2019 there's something going on In terms of social media and what we're getting fed, and a lot of the a lot of this distinction we can see in the younger generations as well. So it's particularly Gen Zed who were now finding the young men are leaning skewing conservative, the young women are skewing liberal. And there's this growing polarizing in terms of opinion, and definitely, you know, they're just as soon as they flick on to their social media channels, they're fed different things. So my girls are 15 and 17 now, and I have obviously spent a long time thinking about, how does this pan out? What is the advice for them, and how do we make this better? And in terms of advice I would give to teenagers nowadays, and this is boys and girls. Actually, I would say that when it comes to having career and family, you need to think about your life as a portfolio career, one where you have a variety of different skills and interests and experiences, and where you collect those over time, and you get to know yourself a little bit better, and that things happen to us in life, in seasons, and to think that your career needs to be this ladder and you need to climb the rungs.
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And you know that that saying treat your career like a jungle gym and not a ladder. So you know, sometimes you might be over on the monkey bars.
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Sometimes you might be sliding down the slide, sometimes you might be climbing a ladder. But actually think about the things that light you up, things that you enjoy. Try and find that in your work, and think about your life as a series of different skills and interests that you acquire, of course, one of which may well be parenting. Right?
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And I also think, you know, for our children, they are watching not just what we say, but how we live. And I've got a course I'm going to be releasing called your next chapter. And I think when our children are teenagers, when we all get to midlife, I think it's a wonderful time for reassessment. I think we know ourselves better in midlife, and I think it's a really wonderful time to be able to say, right, what is my next chapter? What's important to me? If anybody's interested in signing up to that, you can find out about it on my website. If you go to Giselle goodwin.com sign up to my newsletter. There links to my book, etc, and my socials are on there as well.
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That was Giselle Goodwin, the author of a terrific book, Can women really have it all? And as you can tell from the interview, she's really grappled with some of these deep questions that come up as a woman in the workplace, as a mother who is having to manage at home and also having to talk to your daughters about the world that they're inheriting from us. If you found it useful, go on. Make sure someone else you know has a chance to listen to it. Send it on right now. You can give it five stars on your podcast app, you can send in an email to teenagers untangled@gmail.com Give me your penny's worth. Did this resonate with you? Do you have any disagreements with what Giselle said? I'd absolutely love to know what are your stories, and if you want to go to the website, it's www.teenagersuntangled.com That's it for this week. I hope you found this enlightening and enjoyable and Big hug from me, bye, bye.
