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Hello, and welcome to teenagers untangled the audio hug for parents going through the teenage years. I'm Rachel Richards. And if you've been a regular listener, you'll be very aware that I become more and more interested in the concept of community. Because while I think there's the foundation of society and something we're missing in today's world, just the other day someone on Twitter complained about the number of people on public transport, who were playing loud videos, music conversations and carriages is it they were in their own sitting room? Now, I thought it perfectly illustrates how important it is, for the function get a strong society, that we are clear that manners are about considering the environment we're in and the needs of others rather than simply operating in a way that pleases ourselves. Of course, teenagers are going to be very self centred, but they're beginning to operate in a wider world. So it's really a key time to start clearly explaining the importance of good manners. So this week, I've decided to invite writer Brooke Romney onto the show to talk about her.
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Well, she calls it a book, but it's not really what it is. It's more like a small flip chart that you can stand up on a table and used to create discussions.
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The title is 52, Modern Manners for today's teens. And there's a link in the Episode Notes, where you'll also find links to the previous episodes that I mentioned in the discussion.
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When I got the flip chart, I sat down with one of my teens and started going through some of the roles, she actually stopped me to say, you know, this is really good. Because if you were to try and tell me these things, without this chart, I would take events, I said, really? And she said, Yeah, I'd feel you were picking on me, knowing that they're just things I need to understand and that all teenagers can struggle with them. Well, it really helps me to engage. Obviously, you don't have to buy the flip chart, you can write out a whole load of I'm sure you can find manners elsewhere. I'm going to start writing my own, but it's really it's good. So the first question I asked Brooke is the obvious one, why did she decide to write down her own version of manners for teens?
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I have Rachel, I love that question. Because I'm so passionate about why I created it. And it's because I was watching two groups of teenagers, one group who understood social norms, they understood how to relate to others in their world, they understood how to be aware and kind. Because of that, there were their relationships were significantly better. Because their relationships were better, I watched them go into a positive feedback loop. During those teenage years where people were excited about them, they were getting opportunities, they had a lot of connections. Then I watched the other group who struggled with social norms, they struggled with connection, they struggled with being aware, courteous kind, those types of things. And the saddest part of this was that it affected their relationships. And because of that, they went into a more negative feedback loop where people didn't give them those chances or those opportunities, they didn't have those connections, their self esteem really suffered. And so I wrote this book, because I wanted teenagers to have the opportunity in a very simple way to learn some of these social manners and the social norms, that could give them a very different trajectory trajectory in their life that could make them feel so much more successful and confident now and in the future.
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I absolutely love that, I think you you're really hitting on something important there, which is this that very often, we don't even know why it is that people are not responding well to what we're doing. And they have expectations of us that we're not actually living up to. And I think this the sort of social norms, a lot of the key information about social norms, has it's not been it's not been kept up. And I think also with lockdown, there was an awful lot of that, that kids would have been exposed to that sort of disappeared.
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I think you're exactly right. And I think what happened is, first, we introduced a lot of personal technology devices, which disconnected children from having those opportunities to observe how life should go, how relationships go, how conversations are back and forth, all those really simple things. And then we introduced lockdown. And so it all came in one big swoop. And I think as the kids started coming out of it, what the adults were noticing is, how can my child doesn't this, how come they don't understand this? And really the problem is, is they didn't get those years to observe it. And that's how children learn. And so then they become teenagers, and we suddenly expect a lot of them when it comes to social situations. And they just didn't know how
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so true, so true. And there's a book written by David Brooks, who writes for The New York Times his thing is why everyone's social skills are getting So I don't think it's just teenagers. I think generally, I think partly it's because of the movement of communities. And then lack of this sense of community, which I talked about in a recent podcast, how I've really only recently understood how critical our communities are to our well being and our understanding how to behave. But I think also, I'm not religious, I don't go to church, I was very religious at one stage in my life. And I think that churches use store or religion gives people a kind of guideline, like, this is how we're supposed to behave. This is what we do when this happens.
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And without those elements, like the community or the religion, where do we get this information from?
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You know, I think you're right, when you talk about this lack of community, and especially, like you said, for adults, but also, because of that our kids aren't going, you know, they're not going to these social situations. And I think we forget that social norms, kindness, manners, understanding how to relate to each other.
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Those things are, are things we have to practice. They're not just things we're born with. And so even as adults stopped practising, how to relate to each other, how to be part of a community, they started forgetting. And as the kids are watching the adults not understand how to do it. They're not learning those things. When we don't give our kids opportunities to practice, how to be good conversationalist, how to care about what someone else might think, how to disagree, politely, those types of things. They don't get those opportunities, they don't get to practice. And so then they're confronted with the situation for the first time. And a lot of times, they crash and burn, which when that happens, they think, Well, I'm not good at this, forgetting that relationship skills are something that we can work on something we can get better at.
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I love the growth mindset. I think we sometimes forget that that is just as true when it comes to relationships, conversation, being kind, reading the room, those types of manners that are really important, we can get better at those. But it's going to take a really deliberate choice by parents to do it themselves, to model it, and then to give their kids opportunities to do it well, and sometimes to not do it well and help them figure out how they can do it better.
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Yes, we talked in one episode about friendships and how a lot of kids didn't get that chance to just practice making friends going up and talking to people they didn't know. And, and we even talked about how you can model it, how you can give them opportunities to go and talk to somebody they've never met before and and how that works. And and when I did the good manners episode, I thought it I said at the end of it, I'm going to write down what our manners are as a family, what should we and I never did, I never did, which is why I like this, because I looked at it and thought, you know, you've done it, too, which is obviously one a week, by the looks of it. And it seems like you know, what I like about it is is I mean this, this is a what I'm looking at is a cardboard, stiff cardboard standup so that you can put it out in the kitchen or somewhere that's very obvious, so that you can actually have it visible to people walking past and then just perhaps discuss it at mealtimes or I mean what you know, when you've actually talked to people about how they use it, or when you thought about how people should use it.
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What were your intentions? Well,
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I love that you asked that question, Rachel, because one of the reasons why I did it is because I think parents all have really good intentions, just like you said, I thought I'm going to talk about our manners, I'm going to make this list and we're going to do it. But the reality of it is parents are busy. And while we have these great ideas, a lot of times it's just hard to execute them and execute them in a way that works for teenagers.
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And so as I was creating this book, I actually had three teenagers, three teenage boys at the time. And so I had a really great focus group of what might work and they have very different personalities and learn very differently. And I thought it was so important that this book was accessible, regardless of the way our kids learn. So I wanted to be visual, I wanted it to be quick and snappy, because that's the world they live in, they're not going to read a book, if we give it to them about manners there, they will not be interested in that.
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But they might read one page if it standing in front of them very often. If a team wants to learn on their own, they can just take it in, they read it, they figure it out on their own.
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I have one kid who likes to learn on his own. He doesn't want to hear it from me. But then I have others who love to learn through connection. And so we talk about it at dinner. We have discussions we see where they used it where they seen it kind of not go well. And I also want it to give parents an opportunity to say, You know what, I did what I could, my kids might not be taking it in they might not be choosing to do it right now. But they've learned this information and when it's important and when it matters. I have faith that they are going to put it into practice.
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Yes. And that's actually really key, isn't it?
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Because quite often, something we will think is important that that time may not land because they haven't experienced difficulty with it, and being able to come back and flick through it and go, Oh, that's what I did wrong. And being able to say maybe, maybe what happened there is, and perhaps try it slightly differently next time can be really helpful. I love it. There were a few that I really liked that I mean, I liked all of them. In fact, did you when you were trying to whittle down what to have?
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Because you've actually produced a second one, haven't you? Yeah.
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So you must have thought actually, I'm not finished. How did you say like the first one when I flicked it over? Because it's like a flip chart? And the first one was introduced yourself? And I suppose that's a good one to start with. But how did you choose the sequence? Was there any sort of thinking through the sequence? Was it things that seemed more urgent than other things? Or is it basically that these are all things that we have to learn at whatever time we choose?
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I feel like they're all things we have to learn. But I was very deliberate about the sequence. I wanted there to be physical manners that might be easy for someone to implement quickly. So I wanted kids and teenagers to feel successful, they can introduce themselves, that is something that's very easy for them to understand and know how to do. But then other things might be a little bit more nuanced. Like the manner that says find new friends. If if people are always excluding you, if they're always unkind, if they're making you feel like you don't belong consistently, then it might be time to look for new friends. That's a bigger manner, that's a little harder to tackle. So I wanted kids to feel successful, and also be able to stretch themselves. So I was really careful about the way we ordered the book. So that one week might feel really easy hold doors open. That's that's a very easy manner. And then the next week might be a little more difficult when it says don't leave one person out. I wanted them to be able to do both.
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Yeah, that's really interesting. And introduce yourself. Start was a very interesting one, because that was the thing that my friend said her daughter had complained about that she hadn't been taught was that with a French, you have a very specific way of going to a party or another person's house, it's quite formal. And you would always go up to the hosts or the parents, and you would introduce yourself, you would say something really lovely about you, thank you so much for having me what a lovely house you have or something, and then you travel off and do your thing. And then at the end of being there, you would never leave without going back to the person and saying thank you. And it's a very formal way of doing it. Whereas a lot of the British kids, and I'm not sure what it's like in America, but they kind of go their way and they float in and dispute, you know, I can see them in the distance. And, you know, I've said to my goals that you regularly, that doesn't happen, they have to come and acknowledge me, it's impolite for them to just kind of use my house and then disappear. And and it's, it's a thing that's quite common in our culture. And it feels so much love is just lovely when a teenager comes up and acknowledges you and talks to you. slightly surprising, but lovely. Well,
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America is just like Britain and maybe even a little more casual, we could definitely lean into the French side of that. But both of those manners are actually in the book. Because what I hope teams understand from this is it is putting you in a better place every time you use these manners. If you are the child that goes to someone's house and says, Hi, Mrs. Smith, it's so nice for you to let us come over how you doing, you know, even very casually, and then when you leave you say thank you for having me, your home, so beautiful, you're so nice to have us over each weekend, that person gets invited back over
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and over again in my house as often as
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possible. And, and that's what I hope teenagers are understanding from the book.
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It's not about I need to do these things because it will make my mom look good, or it will make my parents happy. That is a wonderful reason to do certain things. I think teenagers today, at least in America, need a different reason. And that reason for them from this book is this will give you a more successful life. This will create better relationships, you will be the type of person that people want to have around, you will be the person that gets promoted in your job. These types of really nuanced social manners are what makes successful people not just successful teens, but successful people. I hope they understand that and as they put them into practice, I've seen and heard many stories of kids saying, Wow, this actually works.
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Yes, yes. And it's fascinating because for example, one of the really interesting ones that you mentioned was Don't you will keep your phone on silent. And it what what I had no notice was that my teens had started to when you're in a room with other people, even if you're on your own with them, they would be having a conversation on their phones with somebody else. And I, you know, it was one of those things I had to say, you know, that's incredibly rude and really offensive to the person in the room you're with. But it just hadn't occurred to them.
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They hadn't thought about what how that might feel for the other person. Because I think they're so used to this constantly being connected and feeling like you're in a flow relationship with everybody. And it's hard to get through to them.
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It really is. And I think one of the things that I've heard from parents who use the book is, it's so nice to have a third party. Because, exactly, you know, parents are saying, so many things, and I think kids oftentimes will just tune them out. But when they read it in a book, what they realise is it coming from an authority figure, there's hundreds of 1000s of families having the same conversations.
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And the other thing that I love is, it's so much less personal.
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I think, as parents, sometimes when we're correcting our kids, and especially if we're feeling like we are correcting them, often, it can create a little dissonance in the relationship.
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And either the kids start to ignore the parents, because they just think, oh, they always think I'm doing something wrong.
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Or they start to say, I don't, I don't really care. They don't know what they're talking about.
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They don't live in this current world, they're old, or you know, whatever that is, and having it in a book makes it so they realise, like, Oh, this is a community issue. This is something everyone struggles with, it's not so personal to me. And it's not even coming from my parents, this is coming from an outside source that says, This is important. And it helps them think that maybe they could believe it, and put it into practice. And they can also do it without being frustrated at their parent for always correcting their behaviour.
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Yeah, and I think that's a big one, because we've been talking a lot about how it's so important to notice the positive things your teenagers are doing on a regular basis. And to be curious and not critical. But at the same time, we need to somehow convey the importance of having structure in our social relationships so that people's expectations are met, when they spend time with you. And that's it. That's a hard thing to get right. Well, one of the roles I loved was the way you smell matters. Because we have actually, we I have actually done an episode on that on, you know, stinky teens and how you deal with it. And yeah, so was that because you have three boys? So?
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Yes, it was. And one of the interesting things to me is some kids are very aware of it just naturally, and they're very high genic. And they make sure they're showing off and and others just don't seem to notice. And that's one of the things that I really felt like was important with this book is certain kids just don't get things as simply quickly or as easily. It's not that they don't want to it's truly that they're unaware. And so I feel like this book helps those kids who are a little more unaware.
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Just say, Oh, wait, maybe I do smell bad. Or if I shower in the morning, and then I go to practice. And then I'm going to get together with people later that night, I'm going to have to shower again, even if I've already showered in the morning.
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I didn't want them to have those negative effects, just because they didn't know or because they weren't aware.
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And that's so important, because I think I've got four kids to a bonus and to have on my own. And I can definitely see a difference between the way that they onboard information. And some of them really need to have things quite explicitly explained. And others don't. And it can feel quite hard for the ones when you've got to explain it to them because they can feel like what you're Why are you Why picking on me. But you're not it's you're just trying to make something a bit more clear because they're clearly not seeing it. And I do like that.
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And like the the nothing online is private. We've just had an episode on girls posting bikini shots. And what really interested me was a woman who was in Human Resources told me that when people come through jobs, they they get them to sign a piece of paper that makes them everything they've ever done on online available. And she said, you know, we then trawl through everything. And if there are any red flags, we just don't proceed with the interview. And it's quite, it's really, even when people think they're behind a wall or they and it's very easy in your own room to think that what you're doing doesn't matter. No one's interested, it's going to be fine. And then to find out that later on in life, it's going to impact you.
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It's going to have an impact on you. It must be a really big thing. So having someone else explain that is quite useful.
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Yeah, that's
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probably have every manner in the book. If teens could understand that one.
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I think it would save the most amount of heartache. This one's a little bit more of trying to get on the offensive before they make it Decision online that could really affect them. And like you said, not just now, but in the future, reminding them that everything can be the screenshot. Nobody's even if you erase it, it never goes away.
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And so it's just something that I feel like is really, really important for the teams of today to know as early as possible, so that they don't get themselves into trouble, that they never meant to be an AI. I think most teams are good. I think a lot of times, they just don't have either all the information, the know how, or sometimes even just the executive reasoning to make the choices that are congruent with their values.
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And it's interesting, because I'm seeing a lot it actually even further down the line when they're in their 20s of people saying, you know, people don't like something or, you know, I was supposed to go on a date with somebody, and they just ghosted me, or, and this, this also happened recently with a group where they just didn't know how to say something to one of the members of the group. And so they just kind of didn't let the person know what was going on.
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And I, I think it's a very, very difficult thing to navigate. And we need to give them skills on how do you tell somebody something that doesn't feel comfortable? How do you let how do you how to break up with someone without crushing them?
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How do we do these are things that really are subtle skills?
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Which need, they just need attention? And some support, I guess, do you have anything that comes up?
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There's one manner that says decline kindly.
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And it really talks about how it's so much kinder to tell someone that you can't make it or you won't be there than it is to just ghost them. And I think you're right, a lot of our teenagers and young adults, sometimes even adults, feel so awkward about saying I'm sorry, I can't make it. Because they just don't want to say it. But it's so
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much right to be seen to be the bad person,
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right. But it's so much more offensive to just suddenly ignore that person until the event is over. And so giving them skills, and not just skills, but helping them know that it's okay, if you can't make it, it's okay, if you have other plans, that's just part of being a human. But the other part of being a human is being honest in a kind way. And I think that manner can really help kids and parents practice what that looks like. The other thing is, is if you've gone over that manner, and your team does get into a little stickier situation where they're not sure how to navigate something, perhaps they can come to you and say, I just I feel so bad, I'm not gonna be able to make it or I made plans with this other group. And this person asked me what if I could hang out, I don't know what to say, and you can work with your kids in doing that. I love that the book opens these conversations. It's not the beginning. In the end, it's just the beginning of the conversation. It also lets teenagers know these are conversations we can have. I'm here to help you. You know, I want to help scaffold this.
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And I think that one of the things that I've noticed a lot with my teenagers is they will bump up against something or they will be worrying about something and they'll come and tell me about it. And when I explain that it's a very normal human experience, or how they can deal with it.
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The general responses that they kind of thought they were broken, or there was something wrong with them. And I think a lot of teenagers are very hyper critical because they're surrounded by judgement. And they don't really know how to work out whether it's something that's wrong with them, or it's a normal. And I think normalising an awful lot of this stuff. They're skills, they're not something you should innately have. They take time to develop. And when they're looking around themselves, everybody else seems really good at these things. So having a way of like you say opening, that discussion is so important.
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Yeah, that's so true. Because I think, I mean, I even go back to when I was a teen, and I just wanted to know that it was normal that this was happening or that I felt this way. And I think you're so right, the more often we can do that for them, and then give them the skills to practice and work through that. They'll be so much further ahead instead of going into young adulthood thinking, I must be strange, this, no one else struggles with this. One of the things I love about these books is that there's 104 things that teams all over the world are struggling with that we're you know, tackling. So when one team says I don't know, it's so hard for me to make friends or to start a conversation. You know, that's the first manner in book to start a conversation. This is how you do it. Let's practice and it's not just you, you know, you might see those four people that are really good at it. But there's a room of 100 people that are waiting for someone to start a conversation with them.
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Right? Yes, absolutely. And this whole one of the things you said was you attract what you put into the world. You know, if you want friends who lift you up, be that A person who lifts people up.
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And you know, I've heard that in other discussions where they say, I front foot being kind, and I assume that other people will be kind. And I tend to get that back. Because people are waiting for someone to be kind, or people are waiting for someone to open the door. Yeah, I looked
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at those two groups of kids. The other thing that I noticed from the kids who, you know, were doing well and feeling successful, was they assumed that people liked them.
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It was just an assumption, they they walked into different situations, assuming that people would enjoy having them there, when they called someone to hang out, they assume that they would want to go and do something with them, the other group assume that people wouldn't, and they walked through the world like that. And it was a self fulfilling prophecy, they walked into a room, assuming that nobody would like them there.
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And because that's the person they presented, it usually happen. And so I think there's so much power in feeling very in control of your life, not in a strange way. But in a, I can make good things happen for myself, I'm someone who's worth getting to know, I'm someone who can bring a lot to the table, and presenting yourself as that type of a person.
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And I guess, by having some solid skills where they can look and think, Oh, I know, because I remember being a teenager and thinking, how does this work? I'm quite a rule oriented person, I liked to go to schools where I knew how things worked. If I went to a school where there wasn't very clear what how things, you know, the rules were, that would really frustrate me and stress me. And I know that not everybody is like me, but knowing that you've conquered a number of skills, when you say, Oh, I know how that I know, what's it, and you can see that other people are doing it wrong, and you can help them must empower them and must make them feel bigger and better. I
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think it does.
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And the other thing that I've noticed is it helps them develop an internal character, they start to become some of those manners. So there's the second manner, I think, is pitch in. So when they walk into a room, they've become a person who's helpful. They know what that does for people and the energy there. And so even if they're not getting straight A's, you know, they're someone who's very useful because they pitch in.
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They're someone who knows how to be a good friend. So even if they're not the most popular person in the school, they know they're a great friend. And so even when they don't get invited somewhere, they have another group of people that they know, they can be a great friend to, I think it's so important that we help our teens develop some of these internal characteristics that can't be taken away, by an outside world or by someone's opinion. This gives a lot of internal confidence. And
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this builds on the idea of expectations, having high expectations, that's got nothing to do with passing grades at school, it's gotten it's a belief in your teenager, that they are capable of things that are really subtle and ephemeral, but are critical to our relationships with other people, you know, and being trustworthy and knowing that they could they, you know, in their heart of hearts, that they're a decent person will definitely build that sense of worth.
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I think you're right, because whenever there's dissonance between who we want to be and who we're being, that's when our confidence really goes down. And we see that a lot during the teenage years. And part of that is just natural, and something that they have to be able to work through.
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But the more skills we can give them to be able to align who they want to be with who they're being every day. I think it's something that's such a huge gift for parents to their teenagers.
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I love that.
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And you could talking about the pitching in. I recently, probably about a year or so ago, adjusted my language at home.
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Because when you when you talk about chores, or you know, I say to kids, Oh, can you come and help? It doesn't really, it doesn't really work that well for me. And I learned that if I said to everybody, okay, so I've done the shopping, I plan to the meal, I cooked the meal. So what are you doing for the team. And I always talk about teamwork now. And it's completely transformed the family, because now everybody feels like they've really got an important job, because they need to contribute to the team in whatever way that they can contribute. And it's built a real sense of community in our family rather than them going, Oh, God, I'm supposed to be helping somebody. And I think it's a slightly different way of doing it. But you know, that sense that you're actually doing something meaningful and worthwhile is much more it gives them more internal value than feeling like they've been told they got to do something. I
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really love that especially as our kids go into those teen years. Another thing I love about what you're doing is it kind of puts fairness to the side. And it really celebrates individual contributions because if you're a great cook and you don't mind cooking, and it's a way that you want to do that for your family, you don't need everyone to take turns to make the meal, but you do need them to be pitching in and to be a part of the team and be a part of the family. And I love the way that you're doing that. And I feel like that type of language would really resonate with a teen, as opposed to you have to do this, this is your job. This is you know, so I love that I love that skill.
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Um, people then tend to step in with it in the same way that in work, not everybody does the same thing.
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And we don't want everyone to do the same thing people have. I've discovered when I was a manager that asking somebody to do a job that they didn't enjoy, although they weren't good at rather, would just be a failure is much better to say, well, what can you offer and then find out what they're good at and go right?
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You do that? Because we want all these jobs done. So you just say here all the jobs, what do you what are you going to do?
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Yes, and then celebrating, celebrating that contribution and being grateful for that contribution. I really love the way that you talk about, you know, being a team and a family. That
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was Brook Romney, author of 52 Modern Manners for today's teens.
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What's your biggest manners?
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bugbear love to know perhaps we can create our own teenagers untangled personalised version that works for our community.
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You can find links to any of the other episodes I mentioned in the podcast notes and also on my website, which is www.teenagersuntangled.com where you'll also find my blog. You can email me at teenagers untangled@gmail.com. And if you thought this was helpful, please share it with at least one person or leave a review. That's it for this week. Thank you very much for being with me on this fascinating journey. Bye bye for now.
