Fed Up With Nagging Your Teenager? We Talk Routines, in the Wonder Room

Hello, hello, and welcome to the Teenagers Untangled Wonder Room. I've called it the Wonder Room because it's a place where we're going to wonder out loud and answer your questions about parenting. I'm Rachel Richards, and we're joined by Catherine Redicher, teacher, mother of two teenagers. How else would you describe yourself, Catherine?

I would say someone who has spent 20 years thinking about how we help teenagers.

Perfect, that's exactly what we need here. I want you to join in if you're listening. So, if you have any stories you've read in the news or that have bothered you, or issues that you're facing, message in. It's teenagersuntangled@gmail.com, and we'll talk about it. And we don't have to tell people who you are. We can make you anonymous, but I guarantee lots of people are worrying about the same things as you. So, don't forget to like, share, and review the podcast because it makes all the difference to other parents. Now, I've talked about routines quite often in this podcast, partly because as a teenager, waking up every day in a home where there just was no conversation about routine. There was no established routines. I kept thinking, "What am I going to do now? And you're having to reinvent the wheel every single time you have to think about this. So I want to talk first because I've done this in a previous episode about the difference between habit, routine, and ritual. So habit is an automatic behavior tied to a cue, like you wash your hands after you've gone to the loo. A routine is a cluster of habits that structures parts of your day, and then rituals are actions that are routine, but they're done with this kind of presence and meaning. And there's there's something bigger behind it that that makes it important in itself. When you think about home routines, do you have sort of a like a think piece about it?

So I think in this, the bit that's really interesting for me in all of this is, you know, when you have habits and routines and rituals, you know, first of all, you kind of need to notice what they are. So you know, my sons joke now that when my husband and I argue, it's always the same shape. They kind of know the dance, and they say, you know, mum and dad, we can just shortcut to what's going to happen next. You're going to do this, mum, dad's going to do this, and then you know, 10 minutes later, it's going to look like this, you know. And my husband and I have never set up a routine about the way we have around, but we have absolutely fallen into a set of habits. We all do this, you know. We all know our habits. So the first thing that I think is really interesting is, you know what are your habits because some of them will be chosen and some of them won't be, and once you notice them, then you actually can put a bit of choice in and think. Well, actually, if I realize that you know when I come home from work and I'm really tired and stressed, I get incredibly fussy about whether or not someone's put their shoes away. You know, if I can notice that as a habit, maybe I can't entirely turn it off, but I can at least recognize. Of you know, I'm really sorry I nagged you again. It was just because I was busy and tired, and you know all of that. So that's the kind of first bit. But the second bit that's really interesting is how we color them, because quite a lot of the routines that we set up, you know, maybe we set up to make our lives easier, and therefore maybe they kind of center around pinch points. So you know, who's going to do the washing up? Are you going to do your homework without a battle? You know that kind of thing. And because we try and set them up around pinch points, they can often feel quite negative. You know, you promised you were going to walk the dogs at 630, and you haven't. You know, and if a routine starts to feel negative, then it doesn't serve you. But actually, one of the massive benefits about routines is that they are also an opportunity to praise because the expectations are really clear. And I remember, I think you did a Substack quite recently on chores and praise. And if you're trying to set up a routine, you know. If you agree that you know whatever it is that everyone's going to put their shoes away when they come in, if you only notice it when it falls short and have a bit of a shout, then everyone's going to really resent the routine. But if you notice when it goes well and say, "Oh, thank you, this is just brilliant. It's made such a difference to me. I know that you're not so fussed about it, but you know, really helps me feel zen when I walk through the door. You know, if you can actually see that routine as an opportunity to celebrate and praise, then it becomes really positive. Because in schools, certainly, you know, I teach with a lot of routines in my style of teaching, and one of the reasons I do it is I want to have moments in every single lesson that feel easy, smooth, and where I can say to the class that was glorious, absolutely beautiful the way you all did that. Because if you want to have a constructive family dynamic, you have to think where are going to be my moments where I show gratitude and appreciation towards my kids, and if I'm not showing gratitude and appreciation, if I'm just getting snarky, and you know, we all get snarky. You know, ask my own sons; they'll say my mum gets snarky on a regular basis. But if we don't have those praise moments, and all we have are the snarks, then actually you're going to have a temperature that starts to feel quite negative.

I love that. And actually, Tish Fielden, who has Jamie's farm, when I interviewed her, she. One of the things that she implements is the shout out. She encourages all the kids if they notice another child doing something that they admire or that helps them in any way. They stop and they say, "Hey, I just want to do a shout out, and they notify everybody of what that other person did. It lifts everybody. is phenomenal. And I actually have one of my subscribers on Substack who said to me she did this in her home as a routine, like she offered it up as a family routine. And one of the children said, "I want to do a shout out to my mum for coming up with the best idea, and she's so lovely. Just such a win, such a win. So yes, we often think of routines as a whole kind of individual optimization. It's all you know stress, and we've got to be better and everything. And actually, I think we can look at it in a very different way. And I know that James Clear

"You don't rise to the level of your goals; you fall to the level of your system. So your routine. So what are we doing on a day-to-day basis, and if our desire is to fear less and have more joy, have more wonder in our lives, embedding routines which actually give us that opportunity to give positive feedback-it's a fantastic idea, isn't it? That really helps. Yes,

absolutely. And it means there's a big question, right? Because if we're thinking about routines for September, are we just thinking about the routines that are going to solve problems, or are we thinking about what can I do that help my children feel noticed, praised, valued? Because you know, whatever you do, there will be those bumps. You know, every teenager is going to irritate their parents sometimes. There are going to be those rows, but if you can really cultivate the positive moments as well, then you've got a balance and a blend that's going to be strong and enduring.

Yeah, I love that. One of the things about routines as well is I think it's a way of identifying yourself as a family. And I remember doing an episode with this mother who said that she was really struggling with a daughter who started a new school and seemed to be going off in a different value system as a result of the friends that she'd made, and it was making her very stressed about it. And I do think one of the great things about routines and rituals is it's another way of reinforcing who you are as a family. And this is particularly useful if you are a blended family and you've got children, a child who's staying with a different parent, you know, part of the week or at the weekends or whatever, and then coming back, and it's a way of just saying this is who we are as a family, and it's okay for other people to be different. They they don't they can do whatever they want because that we're not in control of what they're doing. But as a family, this is what our values are. This is what we represent. This is the Richards, and it's not about being rigid about that, saying we don't do this, but it's more about giving them a sense of of ownership over their family values and being able to say, "I feel like I belong somewhere, because I think that's one of the hard things with a teenager is is belonging. Don't you think? Yeah,

yeah, absolutely. When I kind of pause and think, "What do I need to try and notice in my own parenting, what am I doing that's misfiring? It's often because I'm still using an old habit that suited my kid when they were, you know, eight or nine, and it's just popped out by default, even though they're now, you know, 1516, So with this whole kind of chat around routines, part of it is not just me, the mum, thinking, right, you know, by the way, everyone, family meeting. You know, this is how it's going to be. Here is the script. You know, jump to it. It's also about having a chance to gather as a family and say, right, we're going into a new school term. What do we think are the things that are going to serve as well? And if you sit down and say to your teenager, is there a bit of the week that you'd like to safeguard? Is there a bit of the week that's really important to you, that you would like to have in our family routines, and we all acknowledge it's special. And actually, the answers might be a little bit surprising. And it may be that one of your kids says something like, you know, I really want there to be one night where you don't nag me about screens, or you know, something like that. It may be there is something they say that possibly like cuts a little bit into your values, but if as a parent you can say, "All right, tell me why this is important to you. Let me understand your perspective, and then if it's possible to say, "Right, I will respect that, we will say that you know on a Friday night I won't nag you about screens until this particular time because you know bedtime absolutely is a sort of non-negotiable. Well, it is in my family, but you know whatever it is in yours. If there's a bit where you can respect their values, and then you say right, and therefore the bit that I'm going to ask you to respect in terms of my values is this bit, then you have a set of routines. But when you implement them, it's not just about the you know they get access to screens. It's also about that these routines have been agreed in a way that recognizes we are a family that have multiple people in. Everyone has a view, and we want to try and accommodate that. So, you know, if you've got kids who are older than you know, 1112, whatever, please do loop them into the conversation about routines. Find out what matters to them. Then it becomes a collaboration. Still, ultimately, you know, with you as the parent making the final decisions, but it becomes something which actually helps your teenagers feel seen and respected, not just kind of nagged and told what to do.

I 100% agree with that. And my youngest is very resistant to being told what to do, so that has been extremely important as a method of just making sure that we're all on the same page. Because actually, as long as she feels that she's been consulted and I've explained to her why I don't think what she's saying is a good idea, she's much happier following something. And I think a lot of parents, this is a struggle for us knowing where to allow the child to have a voice and yet still say, "But I'm the parent, just so you understand that, and and I'm very interested in your view. But we're not going to do that, and here's why. I think the here's why, and here's why I think, and what do you think about that is the important bit, right?

Yeah, couldn't agree more. You know, I think sometimes we blur listening, understanding, and agreement into one, and they're not-they're totally separate things. You can listen, understand, and disagree, and you know why your children are still legally children. You know, as parents, we can't just surrender the decisions. And there've been plenty of times where I've had to say, "I understand why this matters to you, but I'm really sorry. You know, we're not going to do it because ultimately I am the parent, and I've really thought, and this is what I think is best, and I hope I'm not wrong. But you know, these are my reasons, and they come from a good place. You know, listening,

understanding, and agreement are not the same. But if there's going to be a disagreement, that disagreement is going to be much smoother, I think, if the listening and understanding has happened first. And I've seen that play out time and time again. You know, both in a kind of domestic setup, in the families I work with, in the schools I've taught in. You know, if you can listen first, then the decision is much easier for everybody to accept. Huge principle. Yeah, and I think also kids feel so much safer when there are boundaries. I mean, one of the things that's very, very interesting. I don't know what you do in your house. I take my kids' phones away when they go to bed, and I do an exchange. So I put my phone outside so they can see. And my computer's downstairs. I'm sitting reading a book before I go to bed, and so I'm trying to model the habit and also make sure that they realize that it's not just them. So there's a family system about phones in rooms, and I mentioned this on social media, and I have never had so much pushback from parents saying that I'm some kind of authoritarian, terrible person. Oh, I trust my kids. How can you do that to them? Oh, the fact that they sometimes resist means that you're pushing something on them that you shouldn't. My kids are even 18 and 19, and they still say,"Actually, it's really helpful. Thank you. And I find this really, really fascinating. Like, what do you do in your home?

I'm quite a believer that there are certain things that are non-negotiable, and you know, we we started this conversation with the idea of you know which routine is going to serve you. You know, where do you get the biggest benefit? And for me, you know, kids being able to sleep at night is the biggest gift as a parent you can give them. So, you know, for me, my kids are now quite old, but you know, 10 o'clock is the point where our family shuts down. Now, that's not me saying that 10 o'clock is like the perfect time for everyone, but for us, you know, in our family rhythm, you know, 10 o'clock is absolutely the point where you know the family shuts down, you know, screens are away, people are in bed, and I totally understand why some parents might not want to kind of police that, for want of a better word, or they might like the idea of the freedom and the trust and the so on. But you know, geez, I have taught so many classes where teenagers are falling asleep, and so what I see as a teacher teacher is that the kids who are turning up and are exhausted because they've been up until midnight one two, they cannot function in class. And then what happens is it's not just that the learning doesn't work; it's that school becomes really difficult. So you know, if you're the sort of parent who's thinking, well, you know, I trust them, or they can just you know learn their own consequences. I would just say have a have a think about what it looks and feels like for the kid who has to be at school by half past eight in the morning and has to be sitting up and is going to be reminded by teachers that they start to doze off in class. Have a think about what that feels like, because the kids who are tired, school is grim. And you know, every time I've encountered a kid who is just so tired they can't function, you know, I say, right, you know, what does your bedtime look like? And there is almost always a direct correlation between the kids who cannot function in the classroom, and the kids who are you know sleeping with their iPad in their bed, or you know on TikTok until two in the morning or whatever. And I think if you've got a kid who you think would be quite resistant to putting that in, then I would say suck it and see. Say to them, but tell you what, how about we experiment with this for three weeks? We'll just try three weeks where the phones go away, and let's just see at the end of it whether it's better or worse. Because sometimes teenagers are really resistant to a change if it feels like it's forever, but if you present it as a let's just try it and see if things feel easier and better, you know I can't make any absolute promises, but I would be surprised if a teenager doesn't end up feeling actually. Do you know what? After three weeks of getting to bed, because I don't find myself doom scrolling until midnight, if they don't actually feel a bit better. So yeah, for me, I absolutely do have quite a firm line on screens and bedtime because I just think sleep is so important.

And there are two things about that. One of them is to do with it's not just about the schoolwork. These kids are all going through this massive developmental phase where they're trying to figure out their friendships. They're looking for status and respect. The chances of them doing something really dumb are much higher if they haven't had enough sleep, and that also includes saying things that will upset their relationships or cause problems. And they're trying to have good relationships, and they just can't. They're going to run their mouth. I mean, if I'm tired, I'm much. I find it much harder saying the right thing, choosing the right words to express how I feel. And these are teenagers, so I think just from a relationship perspective, you're going to get less friction. I went out to all my listeners quite some time ago and said, "Guys, who of you doesn't have to nag much? All of the ones who said we don't have many arguments, there's very little nagging. Every single one said our family has a routine that everybody sticks to. It's not like the parents do one thing, the children have to do another. That's the big dividing line. I think if the kids see the parents doing X, Y, Z, and and you tell them no, you have to do this because you're a child. All that happens is in their head they keep thinking, when do I get past that barrier? Whereas if the parents are doing the same thing, they just go that's what it is to be an adult. And my kids are so grateful for this. And in fact, my 32-year-old, when she found out this is what she was doing, she just said, "Oh God, I wish someone would take my phone away. It's very hard if you're trying to build friendships and you don't want to switch off if they're still on. But if you have the defense that, "Oh no, I'm sorry, my parents take my stuff away from me, it may feel awkward, but actually, that's a great defense, isn't it?

I remember a head teacher, you know, a fantastic head teacher I worked with once, saying sometimes teenagers need their parents to say no, and she used to say it in kind of gatherings of parents, and she said sometimes teenagers need to be able to say to their friends, "Oh, I've got to go because you know my mum says I've got to put my phone away, and sometimes they actually need parents to kind of be the bad guys to carry the responsibility because if you are in the middle of a conversation with your you know friend at whatever time it is, it's really hard to say. Oh, by the way, I'm going now because I want to go to sleep. But if there is this external boundary where you can say, oh, I've got to hand my phone in, it makes it a little bit easier. But I think if there are routines like that where your teen doesn't like it, you know. If your teen says,"Actually, I really do resent the fact that you are putting boundaries around when I can talk to my friend, then in that kind of understanding bit of,"Okay, well, I recognize why this feels unfair to you, it's always worth as a parent saying,"Is there something we can do to balance it out? I recognize I'm doing something that you feel is unfair. Is there something that you would like me now to do, just to even it out a bit? Because as I say, you know, a bedtime routine that runs, you know, Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, and Sunday, doesn't have to run on a Friday and Saturday. So if you're thinking about setting up a new routine around bedtimes, it doesn't have to be a every single day tastes exactly the same. It could be a this is our general routine, and we're going to do it on these days for these reasons. And then this is where I flex because I recognize at the moment you, my child, are coming at it from a slightly different angle.

Yeah, I love that, and I think that's really important. The flex is important. Angela Duckworth, the author of Grit, one of her points was that routines need to be regular but flexible. So having that flex is really important. Not not clinging on to it. And I know there will be parents listening to this who say, "I have a child who has to stick rigidly to a routine. I get it. And actually trying to teach them how to be a little bit more flexible can be a challenge. But I think for other kids, having that flexibility is vital. And Ken Raybo came on in, and he talked about the failure to launch. So some of these kids who are older who have left school and they just seem to be sort of lounging around in their bedroom on gaming systems or whatever. You know, how do we move on from that? He talks about sleep being the most important thing to fix first, but he also says what you can do, like you said, map the routine. Find out what your family routine is, or just your teenager's routine, and say, okay, so what is your routine? Which out of these things would you like to be doing consistently, and how would that impact you? So allowing them, we're kind of trying to be mentors, aren't aren't we? Trying to give them an opportunity to build an. Environment that's going to work for them, so that as they get older and they start to leave home, they can think more clearly about why something matters to them rather than just because we told them so. And and I think matching the routine. One of the things I found important was matching the routine to their learning style. So one of my daughters, we talked about routines, and she often overdoes it. She's like, I'm going to do all of these things, and I'm like, is that reasonable? Do you think you're going to be able to do that? And and we found that we need a checklist that she can tick off, but some kids don't want that. So it's actually finding out how would that work best for you, right?

Yeah, yeah. If you started with this idea of what do you also think you know you, my child, think is going to be a good thing to do consistently. Then say, right, what are going to be the roadblocks or the barriers that we're likely to encounter on the way? And if you ask that, you might find really interesting things because maybe your your child will say to you, "Well, I do want to walk the dogs, but you know, if you start shouting at me because I'm five minutes late doing it, just going to make me not want to do it, you know. And actually finding out those barriers in advance, and then you can say, okay, let's try and agree how we're going to get round them. So if I start, you know, getting a bit shouty about the routine, you just say, Mum, you said you'd ask me politely and nicely, as opposed to you know in a shouty way. And then you can catch yourself. And although I am totally a believer of the adult is the adult and the child is the child. Teenagers are getting closer and closer and closer to being adults. And the bit that is excellent about parenting teenagers is they are a really good source of information and advice. They know the family dance as well as you do? And if you actually loop them in and say, you know, what do you think I could change in? Then actually, some of the best advice you will ever get about how to parent your teenager will always come from the teenager. Always doesn't mean they're in charge. It just means their insight is really helpful. If you are trying to set up a new routine in your family, think about how are you going to notice and celebrate its success, because teenagers always buy into something where they feel they've done well, and they pull away from things where they think they're not meeting expectations. And if the routine turns into a nag where you are disappointed that they've forgotten, and if it's only a nag, then I reckon you're going to end up with a battleground. But if it is, you know, four out of five celebration and an occasional reminder framed in, you know, I needed it yesterday and that was so great. Can I just possibly remind you, you know, that kind of polite reminder? If the flavor is celebration more than nag, it's just going to be a much much better blend.

Yes, I think one of the things we have to remember is that challenging something that has come about naturally can feel confrontational. So when we change routines, we need to be intentional about it. It's also better if the environment around that routine changes too. So there are things like habit stacking, where you say, "I am going to start in the morning doing five press-ups. This is a very obvious one. So when I go to get my coffee while the coffee machine is working, I'm going to do the five press-ups right there and then, and I'm going to leave a note on the machine to remind myself, and until it becomes a habit. So that's just a very simple physical example. But I think we have to create stacks, and I use my tooth brushing as a stack. So I, you know, if I want to remind myself to do something regularly, I'll put a post-it note where my toothbrush is because I'm doing that twice a day. I love it. All of it. So I put my cleanser on before I brush my teeth. Brush my teeth. Take the cleanser off. I never forget to cleanse my face. I did start standing on one leg, but that stopped. But trying to get a child to change when everybody else isn't changing around them can be really difficult. And Sam Kelly, who I interviewed about her her program, Notice and Do, her book is going to be coming out soon. It's so interesting. Her whole thing is rather than us as parents having to constantly create the chore list, the routine, and everything, start handing it over to the family, I talk about the family as a team, and you start saying, "Wait, everybody, it's your job to notice what needs to be done. Let's talk about what this room looks like before we go in. So we're going to go and watch TV. You're going to bring in all your your socks, and you're going to take your socks off there. You're going to put your cups around the place. Your you know whatever the cushions are going to be chucked all over. This is what it looks like when you come in. I want it to look like that when we leave, and we start getting into a habit where everybody takes responsibility for that as a team.

It becomes much easier because you're not choosing one person and trying to get them to change everything when nothing else has changed. It's a system, isn't it? A whole family is a system. Yeah, absolutely, and I think the other thing that's really relevant to this idea of making changes is always just to put the realism piece in as well, and think, you know, as a family, we've got a finite amount of bandwidth, energy, time. Our generation is so busy all the time and so full of optimization. Can you? This bit better, and you know, I remember once what reading a thing online. It was, you know, how you can improve your week. You know, 10 tips to improve your week, and I got down to tip number five, which was always have a tray of roasted vegetables in your fridge. I thought, no, I can't. I cannot possibly optimize. No, exactly, exactly. I am all out of optimization. Those roasted vegetables, they might be useful for a quick pasta, but you know, geez, I'm not doing that. So we do have to think a bit about if we're going to turn on the tap and try and prioritize something. Where are we going to turn off that tap? Because it is finite, you know. And we just have to be realistic about that and not beat ourselves up about it. Time, energy, bandwidth. There is a limited amount of

it. Absolutely spot on. The

thing that actually transformed my life, and I always slightly hesitate to say this story because it does sound a little bit sort of military. But the thing that used to completely and utterly like leave me on the brink of the big shout was meal times-not the actual eating of the meal, but the question of what are we having. And I'd say, Oh, we're having this. Oh, come on! This is and then and then the the bit that tips you over is you say, you know, we're having this, and the response from the kids is, and it was the that just used to kind of like drive me mad. So in the end, I said, right, what we're going to do is we're going to take a month at a time. Am I going to sit down? And I'm just going to. We're going to do the meal plan for a month. And you know, my boys were quite young at the time, like 10 and 12. And I said, right, each of you can choose, you know, a dish a week, and we'll put it in. And you know, I'll choose a couple of dishes and a couple of nights where I don't plan because it's like Saturday night or whatever. And actually, just that thing of writing out a month at a time what we're going to have it transformed things because what happened was, first of all, the idea was if you want your choice, then you can't complain about someone else's choice. So it stopped the complaining about why we having macaroni and cheese. It also meant that the kids didn't feel quite the same need to complain because the fear that suddenly you know macaroni cheese might, you know, come in by stealth every night. You know that went because they could see that you know macaroni cheese was like a one night wonder. You know, only once per month. And actually, although it was a bit of a faff to sit down and do that month's worth of you know writing it out, it totally changed things. And then actually, once you've done it a couple of months, it just gets quicker and quicker and quicker because you sort of know the options anyway, and you just distribute them. So it was one of those routines that it has just changed the whole feel around meal time so much.

I think all parents, this adulting where you're supposed to come up with a meal every night, is is just dreadful. It's awful. I think we all can relate to that. So I think that's a brilliant, brilliant point. And also my tip on top of that is whatever meal it is that your child really likes, they need to learn how to make it. They can make it that night. So you know, my daughter loves a lasagna. I'm like, you make it. I don't want to make a lasagna because it's just really lopey. But she loves it. She and she goes through the whole process, and because she's not doing it all the time, and then she does a roast chicken, and she's really good. So, so actually, then they end up going off into the world, being able to cook their favorite meals because they practice it over and over again, and they they've refined the recipe. So, actually, yeah, you can use it in that way too. I like that. Oh, that's a great tip. Is there anything else that you think we should discuss before we finish on this very important topic, I think

the main thing is just to pull out again that idea of let routines be something that allows for celebration and praise, not just kind of negativity and reminder. If a routine can become a positive thing, then it really serves both the problem it's trying to solve, but also the family dynamic. That would be my 100% takeaway.

Catherine, thank you so much for that. If you like this, send it to at least one other person who might benefit, because we all need to think about routines quite regularly. I am constantly trying to think about them. Like, share, give us a review, give us your feedback. Do you like this format? Does this work for you? Are there other things you'd like me to be covering, or discussions you'd like us to be having were all ears. Thank you very much, Catherine. Once again, and have a great week. Bye bye. Bye.