Empty Nest: How to Cope When Your Teen Goes off to College or University

Rachel Richards: 0:02

Hello and welcome to Teenagers Untangled, the audio hug for parents going through the tween and teen years. I'm Rachel Richards, journalist, parenting coach, mother of two teenagers and two bonus daughters. Now I'm not here to tell you what to do. I'm here to help you see things differently, feel less, and wonder more. Now I'm on quite a few social media platforms, primarily to connect with other parents like you. And right now, I'm seeing so many mums feeling really upset about their child leaving for college or university, as we call it in the UK. One woman wrote, "It took me almost five years to fully overcome emptiness syndrome. Who else has found it or is finding this difficult? And another said,"Look, I'm happy to see my kids doing well and moving on with their lives, but I also feel I don't know a bit left behind. I go through these moments of complete joy for them, and then moments of what feels like they've just gone forever. This podcast has covered so many topics that I thought it was a good time to revisit my discussion with mindfulness coach Susie Asley about empty nest syndrome, and after that, I have an interview with Hannah Bankier, who specialized in professional and personal change, and more recently she set up Birdie Launcher to help mums find joy and purpose when their babies reach this stage, rather than just feeling like they have an empty nest. I hope you find this helps to reframe your situation, and don't forget to follow, share, review it, and let me know about your own experiences. Now, let's start with Susie. Now, how do you feel about your teenager leaving home? Are you dreading it? It's known to have triggered a mental breakdown in some parents, and the term empty nest syndrome, or are you going to be rubbing your hands, skipping back into the house, and planning some exciting new adventures? You've already said you're going tremble. They're both. Yeah, bit of both. I've got dogs. I've got dogs. I've got a dog. They

Susie Asli: 1:54

take my dog with me.

Rachel Richards: 1:55

Are you? Yeah. I don't think they take them to the Maldives, do they take them? I think my

Susie Asli: 2:00

plans weren't as grand as that.

Rachel Richards: 2:03

I could dream. Anyway, I've seen some arguments between different parents that you know who say, right, well, once your kid's 18, you've got to stop meddling. You've got to know, you know, stop trying to give them advice. Let them just make their own mistakes. And and I just thought, oh, that's a bit painful because I don't think they suddenly hit 18, and it doesn't work like that, really, does it? No,

Susie Asli: 2:22

their brains are still developing as we would be until they're 25. But you know, our relationship, of course, changes and our role changes. But we're still, we're still there for them.

Rachel Richards: 2:31

Yeah. Now, Sarah said her dad suffered from emptiness syndrome as well as her mother, and she found out years later that he used to cry when she went to university, and she said, "Well, obviously, it would have been harder back then because there were no mobile phones, and her dad would get a call from the phone box every now and then, usually when she needed money or a lift home. Yeah,

Susie Asli: 2:52

that's so true. It's really changed, hasn't it? Communications really changed, so they're not so far away. I think that that's actually really important. But

Rachel Richards: 2:58

that can also make it harder, yeah, because it means that you've got the temptation to constantly message them, and then if they haven't messaged that you, you think, well, you can. Yeah, you've got to pay for a phone or whatever. And then Alison told us that she grieved for about three months prior to her first child leaving, knowing that this was going to happen, and there were lots of tears and really sad moments, and then soon realize that they do come back and they're not gone forever. The holidays came around quickly, and that you can visit them. And she said, you know, that's a feeling you can actually tap into. Of course, the problem is that they then came home after university, so then you adjust again, and then they really leave. And so you know, one of hers has actually properly flown the nest, and she said that. Please don't get me onto that because that's really painful.

Susie Asli: 3:45

Must be really hard, but it's also you know again the idea that we've discussed before that that's a you know being upset if if you feel upset or you know this feeling of grief is a normal reaction to a situation, you know. We we do like to go and pathologize everything and make it out to be a, you know, some sort of abnormal illness, but that's a normal reaction. So allowing it, you know. Of course, it's hard. I know that when my kids leave, I kind of kid myself that because they have from a very early age gone and spent you know weeks at a time with their dads in another country. That you know I've done it a bit, so I'm kind of practice. But it's probably absolute rubbish. I'm not sure it's going to make any difference.

Rachel Richards: 4:31

I think that's absolutely spot on, and it's called a syndrome, but it's it's not a psychiatric health condition. What can happen though is depression and anxiety as a result of feeling this this emptiness. If we

Susie Asli: 4:43

don't allow the feelings, if we don't pretend they're not there, or you know whatever it is we do,

Rachel Richards: 4:48

yeah. And it describes loneliness, grief, pain. Like you said, the the grief it can be physical and emotional. You feel it in your body,

Susie Asli: 4:56

completely connected, completely connected, and sometimes we feel the. The physical symptom first, and sometimes we feel the mental. But it's totally connected. Two things pop up. First of all, is like how you parent. So is your whole identity being a parent? No judgment there. But you know, for some, I think maybe particularly mothers. Although I'm sure there are some fathers that have the same. Their whole identity is is being a mother, and you know that can you know be fine, but when that that means that when their child leaves or children leave, they are then left. Well, okay, who am I now? And that can be really tough and really difficult. So looking at that and allowing that, and then you know we are we are not our roles. We are we are way more than that. If we haven't really explored that, that can be really painful.

Rachel Richards: 5:44

And being aware that this could come up is going to be helpful because you can start early. And and actually, you don't even have to be an at-home mother. You don't have to be an at-home father. There was a quote from a woman called Lillian Little who said, "I thought I would never suffer from emptiness syndrome. I'm a college professor with a PhD, I thought only pathetic women who have no life beyond their kids have a problem with this. And then she said she felt a life-altering loss when her kids were leaving home. And you can have sleeplessness, loss of appetite, nausea. You know, like I said, it can be it can be both a sort of psychological grief, but it can also be physical.

Susie Asli: 6:20

Yeah, I mean it's a loss, isn't it? It's a loss, and I think in I heard you know in in the olden days. However, why such a weird thing for olden

Rachel Richards: 6:29

days, the olden days,

Susie Asli: 6:31

people you know mothers had you know psychological breakdowns sometimes when their firstborn left. Often if it was a boy, and you know I can see that being a being a thing, but and then there was there wasn't an awareness about it, and and maybe a different kind of of help or not not any help, but it's the same now. It's it's a it's a big loss. Yeah, big. Yeah.

Rachel Richards: 6:54

So things you can do to prepare ahead: identify what roles you've actually played. So you know, I've been a mother. I've been a neighbor. I've been, you know, if you've been working, what roles do you have in workplace? Your friends. So who am I? That's what I mean by identifying your roles. And then what roles would I like to have? Who, you know, what would I like to? If somebody said, put something on your gravestone, what would you like them to say about you?

Susie Asli: 7:19

Absolutely. And if you want to go even deeper? You can go. Well, who am I without any roles? You know, who am I discovering

Rachel Richards: 7:25

your values? Yes.

Susie Asli: 7:26

Who are you when you're not being a mother? When you're not being a wife? When you're not being a caregiver or your work? You know, who who are you without any label?

Rachel Richards: 7:36

I think I've discovered more and more about myself the more that I've questioned. Well, is this what you know? This doesn't feel right. I want to do something else. What do I want to do? Who do I want to be? So I started charitable work. I was helping at a toddler group.

Unknown: 7:48

Yeah.

Rachel Richards: 7:49

My God, it was boring, and I just wanted to shoot myself every time. You know, and I was cooking for them, and that was boring. You know, and then you eventually you find your thing. So you do it through

Susie Asli: 7:57

exploration, which yes, you need a run up to it because it

Rachel Richards: 7:59

doesn't happen instantly. Yeah,

Susie Asli: 8:01

no, it doesn't.

Rachel Richards: 8:01

No, so and then reconnecting with your partner.

Susie Asli: 8:04

Yes. Now, if you want to. I know. Yes. Can of worms.

Rachel Richards: 8:13

Yeah. I mean, I did meet a woman once who was at a working in a shop, and she said, "Oh, this is my daughter's shop, and I'm working here. And I said, "Oh, that's so nice of you to help out, and she said,"My husband's at home. So we understand that sometimes, sometimes over the just the rough and tumble of life, that things can sort of start unreadable. Yeah, but

Susie Asli: 8:31

it can be an opportunity, can't it? Because yes, maybe maybe if people have drifted apart, you know, it can be then a massive opportunity to to relook at it together if both partners are up for that.

Rachel Richards: 8:41

Try and plan to, you know, what what do we actually like to do together? So sit there and say, what kind of things would you like to do with me? By the way, not just going off and doing your own thing. And if you're on

Susie Asli: 8:51

your own, if you're a single parent, because I think maybe then you maybe maybe you feel the loss even more because I'm sure you're on your own with your child or children, and then suddenly you're really on your own. You know, reconnecting with other people. How how can you make that work? How can you be in a social network somehow?

Rachel Richards: 9:07

Absolutely, building your friendship groups, going and doing things that interest you, and then that way you'll meet more people who potentially like the same things as you. You know, it takes time. All of this takes time, doesn't it?

Susie Asli: 9:19

Yeah.

Rachel Richards: 9:20

We're able to cook whatever meals you want. Yeah, right. I love that when my kids go to STEM life. Your life doesn't have to revolve around their sporting activities. So now you can think, okay, well, I could go out and do some sports myself. Exercise, exercise is a massive one. It's a really good way of helping your own everything. Everything. Yeah,

Susie Asli: 9:39

really good. It's how you look at stuff, isn't it? And then that can sound really flippant and superficial, but it is how you look at stuff. So you know, glass half full, glass half half empty. They're leaving. Oh, that hurts. Giving space for that. That's really important. Not just shoving a lid on it. But you know, okay, what what's the plus in it? What can I do? Like you'd say. The activities,

Rachel Richards: 10:01

and and as you said, you know, giving that space is accepting those feelings of sadness. I mean, if you want to hug the t-shirt of the absent teenager, that's fine. Do do what it takes. You you know you, and and it's always hard because it's not just the absence of them in the house; it's that you are now potentially not needed all the time. Yes, you know you're not safe. They're not going to come home, and you don't have to wait hard for them to come through the door. And you may be thinking, are they safe?

Susie Asli: 10:29

Yeah, yeah.

Rachel Richards: 10:30

There's the kind of fear.

Susie Asli: 10:31

Yeah, absolutely. And it also touches on a on a with that in mind. It touches on a subject that we often refer to, which is change, isn't it? You know, we don't like change, but that is part of life. So the only thing that's constant-it's the only thing that's constant, absolutely. And so you know we've already we've already experienced a lot of change with our kids. You know they babies, toddlers, all of that. You know it's changing, and then the next change is that they leave home. That's what we're meant to do. That means we've done our job. Yes, but we don't like it, so we cling on. We're clinging on to the stuff that we want, we want to keep, and and it's the resistance to change that makes us suffer.

Rachel Richards: 11:11

I think you're absolutely right, but I do think that one of the reasons why this can be particularly hard is if, like me, you had your children later, that when they leave, it's a sign of you know your impending old age, and this sense. And you know when I talk to elderly people, they just say, "Oh God, getting old is really horrible. And and so there's this this fear that you're ending up. You know, you have to take life with both hands, and like you said, have a sense of gratitude. Take again, draw from people like Edith Eggers and think, okay, what can I be excited about and grateful for, and what can I build?

Susie Asli: 11:47

Yeah, and I really like to. I don't know if we've talked about it before. I like to use a word like I have to. I have to do this. I have to. Everything's a bit, you know, heavy. And if you put in instead of saying I have to, I get

Rachel Richards: 12:00

to oh, I like which is

Susie Asli: 12:03

really nice. So you know, I I get to see my kids going off to go live. I get to do that because the alternative is not very not great. I mean, there are many alternatives. Very true. Very true. So that just no, no.

Rachel Richards: 12:16

Even if they're lounging around the house for the rest of their lives, that's not good. So yeah, no, you're absolutely right. One thing that I did read was that it's really important when this first happens. Those first six months don't make life-altering changes. Don't suddenly sell your house. Don't suddenly jack in your job, or you know, unless you've been planning on planning

Susie Asli: 12:33

on traveling around the world.

Rachel Richards: 12:35

Well, you know, yeah. They wait. Well, they they might actually literally drop them off when you're heading for the airplane. They may think,"Oh my God,

Susie Asli: 12:45

that called abandonment. Okay, I might need to rethink that.

Rachel Richards: 12:51

But it's this sort of, you know, actually there are there are elements of you know wanting to get on with it, which may not be healthy. You know, just give yourself a bit of time. Yeah, a bit of time to adjust because you may think that this is what you need right now, and you may find that six months down the line, and the dust is settled, and actually it's a little bit different from that. Or abandoning your husband, like I've been waiting all this time. I'm just going to walk out right now. Just give it a little bit more time, maybe really good

Susie Asli: 13:15

advice. And also that our kids might, you know, they might need us in a different way, you know. One

Rachel Richards: 13:21

of our listeners, Emma, said to me,"Right, what you've got to do is you've got to log on to this. There's a Facebook group. Join this Facebook group, and it's what I wish I'd known, and it's about sort of, you know, teenagers leaving home stuff. And I thought, yeah, yeah, that's great. And I logged on, and and it's basically what I wish I hadn't known, because it's you know all the teenagers who've gone to university and they don't like their course, or you know they've been sick and they've and all these parents coming on going, how do I deal with this?

Susie Asli: 13:47

It doesn't

Rachel Richards: 13:48

stop.

Susie Asli: 13:48

It

Rachel Richards: 13:48

doesn't stop, and this stuff actually matters. You know, being the backup, being the kind of you know guy behind the scenes will say, okay, I'll problem solve with you. Yes, okay, they've gone away, but then they're not fully formed. Actually, yeah, it was literally what I don't want to. I'm scared now. I don't want

Susie Asli: 14:06

our role changes, but you know, they they still we're still their rock.

Rachel Richards: 14:10

Yeah, and in terms of practicing self care, you know, eating well. If I'm going to have a moment when I feel low, you can prepare for this and think, what gives me joy? Okay, I'm going to know that's going to be the thing I'll do, and try and build some new routines because the problem is if you have the old routines and then they just disappear, you can be left completely flat, lying in bed thinking, now what? Why do I get up?

Susie Asli: 14:32

Yeah, haven't got to get anyone to the train station or have to make sure that they're on time or all

Rachel Richards: 14:39

that stuff. And it does take 28 days to form a new habit, so you do have to sort of just give it time. Don't think, oh, I can't do this. I just can't be this person. I can't, you know.

Susie Asli: 14:48

It's that beautiful balance, isn't it, between allowing the feelings that maybe don't feel so comfortable, don't feel great, allowing them and taking care of them and having compassion and you know doing nice things, and then you know looking. More actively, how how can I help myself? What can I do?

Rachel Richards: 15:04

Yes, and so you've got to have these kind of working working out what new challenges you can find for yourself, and resisting the urge to check in too much, which I mentioned at the start. The problem with the kids and the notes, you've got the email, and you can be sitting there like a love lawn teenager waiting for a message from them. Why haven't they called? You know what's happened? Are they dead? No, they're having. They're actually building a new life, and it's fresh as week, and there's lots of stuff happening, and they're probably going to call you when they need money. And

Susie Asli: 15:32

the opposite of them going, "I want to come home, and ringing you all the time wouldn't be great either. So it's great. Precisely, if

Rachel Richards: 15:37

they don't call you, it's okay. And I do, I you know, I love hearing all the gossip from my kids. So there are times when I'm thinking, oh, I really want to ask them about this, and I just say, Rachel, go and do something else.

Susie Asli: 15:48

Yes,

Rachel Richards: 15:49

because also if you're still checking in on them, you're not going to be able to move on with your life. So these are all, and finding ways to laugh. Laughing releases all sorts of laughing is good. Laughing is good. So, how to remain connected with your child? Because that's another sort of branch of this. And the most crucial thing is don't pass on this weight of grief.

Unknown: 16:11

Yes.

Rachel Richards: 16:12

So you can say,"I'm going to miss you, but I'm so happy for you.

Susie Asli: 16:16

Yes.

Rachel Richards: 16:17

And but but ladening them with, "Oh, I'm so I'm so alone, and you haven't called me. The best way to make them just not want to call you, or to call you and feel miserable in their new life because they feel like they've let you down, or whatever your relationship. It's not. It's it's really unfair to do that when it's difficult thing for them to do.

Susie Asli: 16:36

Yes, it's like new. It is. It's like when you we talked about it with the lone parenting, didn't we? You know, when the kids go after the other parent, it's exactly the same. You say you're going to miss them because it's nice to know you're being missed. Yes. And I'm going to be doing this and this and this, so that they're not imagining you sitting at home, you know, looking at your phone.

Rachel Richards: 16:58

You're one person.

Susie Asli: 17:00

They know you're you're out doing something fun. That that's really nice for them.

Rachel Richards: 17:03

And remember that some of them will have moved into halls of residence at university, and it will be probably fun but horrible because they're sharing with all these other teenagers who don't have any hygiene standards. So they're having to cope, and it can be really hard for them. So then hearing their mother all the time will make them feel like, oh, I just want to go home.

Susie Asli: 17:21

Yeah, and

Rachel Richards: 17:21

it's not what you want. Yeah, it's not you know you might want that. It's not the right thing to want. It's not what we should want. Yeah, let them make a few of their own mistakes, but be that backup. So just be there, and if they just say, look, any time you want to call, if you want to talk something through, or

Susie Asli: 17:34

yeah, part time job, full time availability.

Rachel Richards: 17:36

Interestingly, though, I read the Pew Research Center in 2016 reported that for the first time, living with parents is now the most common situation for people ages 18 to 34.

Susie Asli: 17:45

Wow! Which is

Rachel Richards: 17:46

a bit wow, really? And really, so these are called boomerang kids. Yes, where they go away and then they come back, and I imagine that's probably increasing with the financial climate. Because of the financial climate, we had that with lockdown. We've had it with the so one of my bonus daughters just messaged me and said, "Can I bring my stuff back? And you know, I'm going to sofa surf, but can I use you as a base because she can't find anywhere to live,

Susie Asli: 18:12

which is which is

Rachel Richards: 18:13

horrific because she said all the properties are going 24 hours, they're gone.

Susie Asli: 18:16

Yeah, crazy,

Rachel Richards: 18:17

and that's very hard. Yeah, so of course, of course you can. Yeah, but when they do come back, of course, you're having to sort of reshuffle your life. You've got justice to them not being there. You've got a new rhythm, and then you have to reshuffle again.

Susie Asli: 18:29

And a very different role.

Rachel Richards: 18:30

It's a very different role. And Libby, one of our listeners, said her son is about to move back in. He's you know similar situation. He's brought his stuff back, rearranged the room, programmed Alexa to switch on lights and an alarm every morning at 6am, and then he left because he wanted to go and see his girlfriend, and so he's coming back after the I think at the end of the weekend. She said every morning she wakes up at six a.m. with an alarm blaring. She can't work out how to switch it off. She can't get hold of him and the lights, and she's saying to Alexa, "Stop, switch off the lights. And Alexa saying, "Which lights would you like turned off? Because he's even programmed every single light separately. She has to say,"Please switch off this light and the desk lamp on the bed. Yeah. So it's sort of

Susie Asli: 19:11

unplug Alexa. I say,

Rachel Richards: 19:13

you know, she's so right. Why didn't I say that to Libby? Libby, just unplug it. There's just a reminder. There are two gifts we should give our children one is roots, and the other is wings.

Susie Asli: 19:24

Oh, I love that!

Rachel Richards: 19:24

Yeah, and and we can just just come back to that and just say if they're not there, it's okay. I'm still providing the roots; they can still come back. But it's I've given them wings, and it's something amazing that I've done.

Susie Asli: 19:35

It's beautiful, and they will come back.

Rachel Richards: 19:37

If you're suffering a deep sense of loss and you're not able to get out of bed. You're not not able to function, and this continues. It's worth speaking to a doctor.

Susie Asli: 19:47

Yeah,

Rachel Richards: 19:47

because you can tip into depression.

Susie Asli: 19:49

Yeah, yeah. The normal grief is is a normal response to a situation that's difficult. But if it get if you're stuck in it, that's that's hard.

Rachel Richards: 19:57

Yeah. So don't don't don't feel afraid about just getting. A little bit of help, but don't jump at it straight away. Just understand that it's okay. It's normal. You're normal. You're not weird. It's fine. And now for my conversation with Hannah Bankier to help us reframe the way we think about our homes and our lives. Now our children are moving on. I started out by asking her what she thinks of the term "empty nest,

Hanna Bankier: 20:23

I'm not a fan for a few reasons. As a feminist, it really pains me to think that we how's the nest empty if I'm still in it. Yes, that does not sit right with me. It's it's emblematic of this idea in the in the Western culture, that as mom, we're once we are no longer of reproductive age, we are so sort of discarded and no longer important. And I want to be important in my life, so that is one reason. The other is when I hear the term empty nest, at least what comes up for me is I picture something dried out, shriveled, maybe a leftover feather here and there, and little poop maybe, and the kids are like gone. And that's not how I want to picture my home. I want my home to be a warm, welcoming, connected place and a place where people want to land and spend time. So I want to do this reframe. So I am leaving that term behind, and thirdly, it's also because I believe that this process of birdie launching starts much sooner. It's not just when your last kid leaves the nest. This is a process that starts whether you have your first, your last, or your only, and ideally, it starts already when your little bird is still in the same nest as you, so I'm reframing it. I'm going with birdie launcher. So in that process, we as mamas we get to launch our little ones as we should. This is why we have raised them. They're supposed to take off and lead their own lives, and in that process, we also get to stretch our own wings and relaunch.

Rachel Richards: 22:02

I love all the the the the ways you're describing it, and I love it because that's very much what the podcast is about. It's about positive spins on things rather than making us feel terrible about our situation. It's interesting because you talk about how it it you know it is not the end of the process; that actually it can start much sooner. And I suppose when people have a kind of a tween and a teenager, they often say,"Oh my goodness, this stage feels very different. And in a way, it kind of starts is the change management, isn't it? And it sort of can start then. I mean, how would you advise parents to go about thinking about, you know, not empty nest syndrome. How to sort of progress towards being someone who's launching their birds into the world?

Hanna Bankier: 22:45

Yes, thank you for that question. It's exactly to your point. We start ideally much much sooner here in the states. You know, we have high schools four years, and some moms come to me and right like the spring term of high senior year when they're about to go off, and they're like, I don't know if they can cook. Can they balance a checkbook? What do we feel like? And I was like, Whoa, whoa, whoa! Let's start sooner. Let's start sooner. So mamas come to me as early as junior year, ideally sooner than that, and really start creating a plan. This is a major life transition, much like when your little kid came into your life, however, they they became your child, and that was a major life transition. And here you're facing another major life transition in your parenting, and that again starts much much sooner. So how do you start shifting your parenting? How do you start co creating a new version of your relationship with this emerging adult? There's there's a lot more that is, and it's so much easier to do when we're under the same roof. We all know that every time you try to shift or change a relationship, it takes time. You're gonna mess up. You're gonna revert back to old patterns and behaviors, and then when you can look at them and just have them in front of you is so much easier than when on the other side of the country, or they go off to whether they go off to college or university or they leave for whatever other reason. It's so much easier to be done when they're still at home.

Rachel Richards: 24:11

So when you're talking about making a plan, what would you? What would that seem like? How how would somebody go about making a plan? And when do they start?

Hanna Bankier: 24:19

Yes, yes, all of that, at least having a plan, just that concept, right? Many, many parents and many adults, we make more plans for a trip to, you know, Asia maybe or Europe from the U.S. than we do for this major life transition. So really being aware of it. Whenever we have a plan, we can create a place of confidence and competence. So what are those different shifts that are going to come into play? You're going to have a dramatically shifting relationship with your soon flown bird. You're going to also, if you have other siblings at home, those relationships are going to shift. Yes, very much. Partnered or a co partner, if you're a two household family. That relationship is going to shift, and maybe most importantly, the relationship you have with yourself is going to shift because you're going to go through a big shift and transition in your own identity as a mom and as a woman, and those relationships need to. I think we we're better off when we tend to them and we go into it with greater intentionality. And then when I work with clients, I have a three part framework that I use. I call it soar because we do want to get you to soaring. And in that is this process of you know your kid's gonna leave. You've probably been a hands-on parent for 1820, years, being very involved. You keep tabs on your kids. You know what's going on. You get records from grades from school. You have all of this. You get to hug them every day if you're lucky. Some of them will shrug off your head, but you don't want them, right? And there's gonna be a tremendous sense of loss and grief, and our culture doesn't do loss and grief very well. No,

Rachel Richards: 26:08

we we hate it,

Hanna Bankier: 26:09

right? So we want to just get going and go off to the next thing and take on more responsibility and just let ourselves feel our feelings and sit with the grief, and just sort of this is happening because I believe that once we, it's easy to move into the next chapter if we get opportunity to close the last. So we stick with the grief. We allow ourselves to feel our feelings. Ideally, we're in community with other women going through something, you know, the similar transition, and then we move into the release part, where oh wait a minute there's all these things I don't need to do anymore. We have transferred not only part of the adulting to our children, but we also shifted. And I don't pick up socks from the floor anymore. Make adult appointments. I don't. I can go to sleep and fall asleep because I'm not waiting for them to come home and check in curfews or being out at 2o'clock in the morning, whatever it is that's going on. Maybe you get a little shitty attitude. Maybe there's some door slamming, like all of that. So shifting from the the grief to the relief, and then we go into the joy, which is the next few decades of your lives.

Rachel Richards: 27:21

And you talked about the different categories of things that we kind of need in our plan. We need to pay attention to, and so, for example, one of them is is actually your partner. And I think a lot of us, as we grow and we we we put huge amounts of work and effort into our own children and developing them because they need it. I remember a friend of mine saying, "Oh, my wife just says my kids get attention because they're the ones who need it. But then you have to. You're still going to be left with that person, hopefully, that you raise them with. So, how do you, you know, in terms of just making a plan, do you write down all these different things that we need to think about and then work through each one. What? How do you do

Hanna Bankier: 28:02

it? Yeah, I think that's a great start. Is name it? You know, in coaching, right? We say name it, then you can tame it. So first, just doing a big brain dump of like, what are all these changes, shifts, and especially in your partner relationship, we see in the U.S. this what is referred to as the graying divorce is going up dramatically, and the number of people that choose to part ways once the kids are left, the nest is going up. I think it's 30 to 40% It's the largest growing category of divorces in the states. So, if we have been hands-on parenting, you know, the CEO and the CFO and the CEO of all the things family, and a lot of women put a tremendous amount of mental load into getting the family and the organization all of that afloat and keep on moving forward. And then one day you look up and who are you looking at? Is that a roommate? Is this still a connected romantic partner is that. Do you have the same idea what your life's going to look like once the kids kids have flown? So tending to it, being aware, having those conversations. Ideally, again, before it is happening, right? When we make a plan and we're prepared and we create awareness, we usually come out so much stronger on the other side.

Rachel Richards: 29:22

Yeah, I saw a really fantastic tip by a coach who was saying that the thing to do with your partner is you have get an annual plan, and you say you have okay, you have your date night, which most people try try to have, but then every quarter you actually have a night away with them, and then every year you have something big that you've planned together. That's not to do with your kids, and of course, this takes money. But it doesn't need to be expensive. You can actually, you know, and this is the time because the kids need less, less hands-on work, and so you can start sort of building that back into your life, can't you?

Hanna Bankier: 29:55

Absolutely. And while they need less hands-on, you. They also need to be able to be adults for you to be able to go away for a weekend, and they have to feed themselves, and they have to clean up the kitchen, and they have to get places and do it. is an amazingly good opportunity to start transferring these adulting responsibility.

Rachel Richards: 30:15

Yes, absolutely. And one of the things you mentioned when I was reading some of the stuff on your website was this problem where people don't evolve their parenting, so they're still parenting in the way that their child was? They did when their child was 10, and that's a whole podcast is about kind of how do we manage that transition to a sort of different type of parenting, which I think can be real, really hard. But I guess that that's also you know negotiating with your kids, how are we going to be? Because when they start to leave, that's is a different thing altogether, isn't it?

Hanna Bankier: 30:48

Yes, that and this is one of the mistakes that so many parents and moms are making, is that we sort of found our groove ideally in how we parent, and then we stick with it, and that's not going to work, right? The way you parent when they're two is vastly different than when they're 10, which is different when they're 18 or so and about to take off and leave. So, going from mama to mama mentor is this tremendously big important shift, and to your point, so hard

Unknown: 31:18

because

Hanna Bankier: 31:19

it means we have to let go of the control, and so many of us parents associate parenting with control. You know, pick up your sex, wear this green shirt, do these things, do your chores, and you're not going to ideally move in with them wherever they're going, whether go to university, wherever they're taking off. You're not going to move in with them. So that is again about managing your own anxieties. I usually say that parenting is about 80% managing your own anxieties, and

Rachel Richards: 31:51

I'm sure, yes, oh sure,

Hanna Bankier: 31:53

right. And that's even more true now because now you know they have a car and they drive off, and you don't know what they're doing, you are not going to be able to be there. So, how do you manage your anxieties to be able to let go of that control, to actually allow them to stretch their wings and watch them belly flop a time or two, make those mistakes, and not come in and constantly rescuing them? Because you know if you've done your job well, then they're ready to be adults.

Rachel Richards: 32:27

And at what stage do you think it's most effective to start talking to them about like how would you like our relationship to be as you move forward towards adulthood? I mean, I've got two bonus daughters, and that's a still evolving relationship where you know when one of them came home and lived with us for for just a brief time, but it was it was so interesting, so interesting under starting to understand each other in a different way, and and it was quite good with us. But I think it can be very difficult times. So when do you start having those discussions about like how is our relationship going to be

Hanna Bankier: 33:01

yes, I had with my oldest. So he's a third year engineering student in Massachusetts. So he's on the other side of the country. I'm in California, and we started having those conversations his in the fall of his senior year. So his last year,

Rachel Richards: 33:17

what?

Hanna Bankier: 33:18

And at the first, he just looked at me. It's like, mom, what are you talking about? What do you

Unknown: 33:22

mean?

Hanna Bankier: 33:22

And I was like, yeah, you know, I will always be your mom, right? So there will always be a hierarchy difference, if you will. I will always be your mom. I will always be your safety, your security, your point of your lighthouse, if you will. And but as you are becoming more and more like growing up and emerging adult and soon adult, we won't have a peer-to-peer relationship necessarily, but we're gonna. It's gonna look and feel different. So, what do you want it to look and feel like? How do we want to be with each other? How do we handle conflicts when you're on the other side of the country? Because we will, you know, we love each other. We and part of loving each other means that we're gonna mess up, or we're gonna you know do or say things that gonna hurt. So, how are we gonna handle that? What kind of channel or intensity or frequency of communication do we want to have? Of course, I'm used to seeing you every day, and I'm gonna miss you terribly. Somehow, it's not about me, right? You're about to go off and do your thing, and make a bunch of new friends and start new activities and create your own life over there. And how do we still feel like we're connected? So how do we keep them close when they're far away, and part of that is really having the conversations. It's not going to just happen, right? And and

Rachel Richards: 34:49

we need to lead those, don't we? Because the kids don't tend to, they they just wait. We sometimes parents wait and they think, well, my my kid didn't reach out to me. No, no, no. It's our. I see. I think it's our job.

Hanna Bankier: 35:00

Yeah, without becoming overbearing, because that's another problem. It's just like if you're calling and like checking and like hi and tell me and you know it's like and and then again of course each kid is very very different, so you have to also tune in to what does this unique child need and what kind of scaffolding and support. And I have two children that are very, very different, and one is just like I'm off to the races, and the other one's going to need a little different way of communicating and feeling that bond and that connection, and it's going to look and feel different. But again, if we don't name it, we don't tame it. So if we don't have the conversations, then how are we going to co-create? And I think that was what really tickled my kid. You know, at 17, I was like, "Hey, kiddo, we get to co-create this. It's us together. It's not me dictating. It's not me telling. I have some ideas. You know, obviously, I'm a coach. I've been doing a lot of reflection over this. I have relationships. You know, my family of origin are all in Sweden, so I I we I have experience of how to keep close when we're far away. But this is our unique relationship, and he loved it. Like we had so much fun. We were playing around with different titles. Am I going to be an advisor? Am I like that? Be a consultant. Am I going to be a sounding board? Am I going to be a coach or a mentor? And he's like, "No, mom, you're a coach at one, not my coach. And I'm like, "Great, let's figure out something else that's going to work for us. And now we're tight. We're really, really close. So that fantastic.

Rachel Richards: 36:36

So coming back to this, the identity shift for the the the mum, you know, and I think we're focusing on. I think I think this does happen for dads. There are some dads who really feel this viscerally, but I think for a lot of women, it's particularly particularly them who land up with this. This identity shift, and you know, when you your your house seems empty and or quieter, and you tied up your entire identity with this. You know, I think when mums have worked through it, even mums that I know mothers who've worked all the way through their kids, but they've realized that they can ramp up the work now, and then they're looking at the work and thinking, "Oh, well, actually, is that the sort of the way I want my working life to carry on, or do I need to shift it? So this is quite a big shift. So, how would you talk to a mother about how she should go about thinking about her own identity? And again, I guess this should happen quite early in the teen years.

Hanna Bankier: 37:32

Yes, everything that we do, you know, ahead of time helps, right? Because then we can build a response as opposed to just a reaction. So, thinking about it, imagining, you know, what what do I want it again to look and feel like? And so many of us has poured in so much of our identity, our mental load, our time and energy, our love into these children, and rightfully so. And now there is this opportunity to lift your gaze a little bit, and come out. And what is my impact? Where do I want to have an impact? Where do I want to give back, or what do I want my contribution to be? And it could be staying in the same profession and ramping up, taking up a you know bigger leadership role or whatever that looks like, or it could be something completely different. In the U.S. it's a very, very heavy work identity culture as well. So I usually encourage mamas to look at what else is out there, and instead of having going from the mom identity to the work identity, you could have many, many different identities. So, do you want to be a mentor at a nonprofit organization? Do you want to cultivate a garden? Do you want to take up sailing? Like, and in that, also really harnessing on to the community, need each other more than ever, and what happens when the kids leave is you no longer have those touch points. You don't drop off and pick up at school or at you know sports events or dances or whatever it is. So what? How do you create your community and your friendships and female friendships? I believe, are gold. We need desperately, and to your point, yes, dads also obviously will miss their kids. But the way that moms are usually the center of the emotional labor and regulation in the household, it just it feels different for us. For many of us, I shouldn't generalize too much.

Rachel Richards: 39:43

It's interesting because I've read Priya Parker, who talks about gatherings and why we gather and how to create a good gathering, and I'd started thinking about that quite a lot. And what's wonderful is some of my friends' girlfriends who I don't really know that well, but they've in the local sort of. Area have started saying, "Oh, should we have a ladies' get together on a Wednesday night and we can all just chat? And then I've started on Friday. There's something in in Switzerland called Apperel, where you just pop round to the neighbors and you make it a really short period of time. So it's just between say six and six and eight, so that you just have a drink. It's not big. It's not you're not having to do anything elaborate with some snacks, and it just means you catch up. And I really love these kind of. I think I think what has happened is in my past everything felt like it had to be quite weighty. With there was quite a big dinner party culture, and and then we went through COVID, and and people stopped communicating and spending time together because it all became so. We got out of practice, and then it was really hard. And you thought, I just don't know what I'm doing. So I love these small things that we can do, where we just invite a few people round and make it really simple, and get back into that habit, and then you know, so you're in contact with each other and keeping up with each other's lives, and then those friendships can grow from there.

Hanna Bankier: 40:59

Yeah, it's beautiful. Yeah, we have to come back and flex those muscles. I think, and also then when we no longer need to cook for you know all these hungry teenagers and do these other things, we have the space and the freedom to. And finding those connections is crucial. I think the numerous studies that showing that female friendships is the one thing that's going to take you through and really evolve and and make your more content, and it impacts your health, and it impacts your happiness. So we need those desperately. Yeah.

Rachel Richards: 41:29

And what would you say to parents? So we, we, you say that these, there are these stages that you go through, and what would you say to parents where they, where they got to the point where they're looking at their kids, and they are just at the end of their school years, probably going on to university, or they've come out of university, and their kids just haven't really managed to sort of take off yet, and they're starting to really worry about their child's future because you think, oh, I mean, Susie and I, my my co-host had we've been talking about how exciting it is when our kids go, we're going to go on a world trip, and it's all going to be really fun. But then you go, actually, I've got a boomerang kid who's now back at home, so you think you're going to launch them, but maybe that's actually not how it pans out. How would you? Because it's this change, isn't it? So how would you talk to mums about how how to cope with that fear, the fear that maybe your kid isn't going to manage as well as you had hoped. You you start out their teen years thinking, oh, it's going to be great, or I'm hoping, and then it's not looking that great.

Hanna Bankier: 42:35

I had a conversation with a mama about that just the other week. She's like, Hannah, I got to go through the grief and then the relief, but I didn't get to joy because

Susie Asli: 42:43

now

Hanna Bankier: 42:43

there is a boomerang kid at home back, and which is very different, right? This child is definitely her child and will always be, but no longer 18. So a few years have gone by. So this person thinks that they are an adult, but are obviously not fully adulting because they're back home. So, what does that look and feel like? So the fear there is, yeah, and we just don't know. We don't know what's going to happen. We can hope, and we can plan, and we can prepare, and we can have these conversations and then life be lifeing, and you just don't know what's gonna come your way. So I would say, and we had some of that during COVID as well, when all of a sudden there was no reason for the kids to be off at university and college and sitting alone at a dorm and zooming. So they came home, and a few mamas down. I was like, "Whoa, okay, so we need to like. Who is this person? Is it a roommate? No. Is it a parent? It's a kid. It's so again, making everything explicit. Like, talk about it. Talk about it. Talk about it, and create these expectations. Yes, you can live at home, and then here are the things that we expect from you. And you know, your dad and I, we shop and cook and clean, and you know, do all of these things. And then, so part of that is going to be your responsibility. And then creating a plan with your kid: how are you going to launch? What it? What is it that holds you stuck? And it may be something that you're equipped to do as parents, and many parents they need more help than that. Yeah, but to answer your question around the fear of it is really that, right? How do we manage our fear? And because our biggest fear as as parents is that our kids are not going to do well, and we know as mamas we can only be as well as our least well child.

Rachel Richards: 44:45

Absolutely, absolutely. And again, coming back to that sort of getting to that stage where we're reflecting, I have spoken to mums who okay, they they're in that stage where their kids have moved on, and I think. Some are hit with regret or guilt. They start to think, "Oh, maybe I made the wrong decisions there. I didn't, and these things weren't right. So I think part of this change management isn't just, you know, launching and having a really fun future. It's actually having to manage the feelings that maybe things you did some things that weren't. You now look back and you think,"Oh, I wish I hadn't done that. Maybe it would have been different. Is this part of the process that when you're dealing with your mums when you're talking to them?

Hanna Bankier: 45:31

Yeah, for sure. I think there's not a parent that walks under the sun that haven't made or done some stuff that we're like, "That was not the best version, or you know, we used to have a swear jar when the kids were tiny, and I was like, "Huh, maybe we should have a therapy jar for every time I do something where I'm totally messed up. Like, yes, they are going to need some help in the future. Like, are we saving for college? Should we be saving for therapy? So I think in general, like, there is no perfect parent, we all mess up. We all get to do, you know, as Maya Angelou would say, when we know better, we do.

Rachel Richards: 46:10

Yeah. So

Hanna Bankier: 46:12

how do we evolve and change and adapt as well as parents? Because we also know that there's nobody in the world that can trigger us as our kids can. They find every button that we have and all the uncleared stuff, all the goo that we came with that we hadn't cleared out before becoming parents. Oh, they will find it. So, will there be regret? Probably. I've done some stuff that was not the best parenting. I would not model one model absolutely. And when it comes to guilt, it's very interesting, especially as women, because we've been socialized into feeling guilty when that emotion is actually misplaced. So there's times when we're like, "Ooh, that doesn't feel good, because maybe you actually set a boundary, maybe you spoke up for yourselves, and we're internalizing the receiver's reaction to us holding a boundary, and then we feel guilty that they are not feeling good, and that's not our job as parents. Interesting. Our job as parents is not to be our tweens or our teens' best friend. Our jobs as parents, as I see it, is to be steadfast and loving and holding boundaries and raising the bar and challenging them, right? We can't prepare the path for their child. Rather, we want to prepare the child for the path. Yep. Again, you're not going to move in with them when they go off to college or either their first home. So, how are they going to be able to hold that? What kind of level of resilience do they have, and what have we given them? And that, of course, is something that starts ideally long before the last couple of months when they're at home. And so,

Rachel Richards: 48:12

yes, and that's a gift as a gift to the child as well, because I know that I've spoken to kids who are very frustrated when their parents still feel this dependence on them, and they desperately need them to come home and, you know, be their emotional prop. So just you know, finally, just looking at how we can reinvent ourselves, that sort of joy section of it. And you mentioned there are you know things we can do like joining gardening groups or being part of the community or traveling. How would you go? Like, what are your steps that you would give if I said right tomorrow? I'm going to sit down and I'm going to focus on this, and it's going to be really positive. I'm going to have some positive stuff to think about. What would you say?

Hanna Bankier: 48:53

Yes. So a lot of it is just really, really thinking big, right? If we think about the average age of an empty nester, or when the last kid moves out of the home in the U.S. The moms are about 51, and if you look at life expectancy for women, it's over 80. So you have another three decades worth of life to have, and in my case, you know, I'm from sturdy Swedish stock. Myself live for forever, so I'm looking at probably another 40 years. So when we think about what is that, those chapters that we're gonna write in our own book of life, how do you want to write them? What do you want to put in there? How do you want to write it? That's a novel you want to pick up, and it's yummy and juicy and life affirming and beautiful and lots of joy. So whatever that looks like for you is not gonna what it looks like for me. Obviously, there's gonna be some commonalities, but there's that we have different ideas and different interests and different values. So I usually. With my ladies, and we start looking at holistically putting your name in the middle of a piece of paper, and then you think about all the different identities that you have as of today. You know, a mom, a sister, a partner, a business owner, a coach. You know, however you are engaged, wherever you are engaged in your community and in your life, and then I say take two different color markers, and then circle in one color the things that is energizing that fills your cup, and then you take another color marker of the things that drain you. Oh, I like that, and then just look what is that puzzle start taking shape of? Like, what are the pieces that jump out at you that where you're like, oh, this fills my cup. I feel so energized, and we have that with people. At least I do in my life. There are some people, and I'm like, oof, now I'm just drained and exhausted. I didn't take a nap, but, and then there are people that I walk away with. I just like yes, that. So, what are the people and the places and the situation and the context that bring out the best in you, the way you want to show up in the world? And I think some of it is like going back to like, okay, I used to dance when I was young, pre kids. So now, as my youngest is about to launch, do I want to dance again? Maybe I do, and maybe I don't, because the version of me that's here on this earth now is 20 years later. I'm not the version of me that was then. So this idea of like leaving my mommy on the side and going backwards-I don't know if that's gonna serve you because you have a lot of lived experience. Things have shaped you, and you are in a different place that you are now. Not only because you've been a mom for 20 or so years, but when you're 30 and you're 50, those are two different versions of you. So now you get to build the next, you know, 6070, 8090, and looking at those things and just thinking, like, okay, where, where is it juicy? And some are so. Some of us have been not taking us any time aside during this hands-on parenting chapter of their lives that they don't even know. Wow, they don't. They. It's like I. I. I don't know. I like. It just feels like I'm. My limb that is is equivalent of my child is being was ripped off of my body, and there's nothing here. And then it really can feel like that empty, shivered nest that we want to you know move away from. So working with somebody through this process really is helpful, and then also to your point, going together and being in community and and you know commiserating or planning together with other mamas, and I think the other part that is so crucial to remember is, you know, most of us in in this phase of our lives we've had some grief and some loss in other areas, and we know that grief isn't one and done. Right, it comes and it goes, and it changes taste and flavors, and something reminds you, and then you might feel super happy and in the relief phase for a chunk of time, and then you go in like I did the other day. I went into my oldest child's room and I just sat on his bed and both marveled over that this room has never been this tidy, probably ever. You know, in the sense he loved, and also really, really missed him. You know, missed his energy, missing him coming home and giving me a hug and checking in, and his additions to the dinner conversation and being a hold both of it. Right? It is the both and. I am so excited for him, where he is in his life, and he gets to stretch his wings, and it's fantastic, and I miss him like crazy. And I think that is also really modeling to our children, right? We tell them it's a big world out there. Well, it's out there for you too.

Unknown: 54:18

Yeah, we

Hanna Bankier: 54:18

don't want to be that resentful, you know, dried up mom in this dried up empty nest, where you're outsourcing your emotional labor onto your children. Like, no, get yourself a graduation cake. Celebrate you. They, they have left. They're leaving. You scored. You did it, and be joyous in that, and then let them do their thing and be there as their lighthouse. If that's an image that is resonates with you, and then you get to light up your own life.

Rachel Richards: 54:55

I love that, Hannah. That what a great way of summing it all up. I love that. Thank you so much. I have your link in the podcast notes. It's also on my website. You'll have all the information in your background, how to get hold of you. I think you've got a little freebie for the listeners that we'll put into the link as well. Yeah, it's just so that people who are listening, if they're kind of walking their dogs and thinking, wait, wait, wait, how do people get hold of you?

Hanna Bankier: 55:20

Yes, thank you. So, my company, my website is Birdie Launcher. So, Birdie with a Y, and birdielauncher.com. And yes, go there and do Birdie Launcher forward slash free offer, and that is my free guide to you. So you can start evolving your parenting and co creating that new version of your relationship with your soon flown kiddo, and going from mama to mama mantra.

Rachel Richards: 55:46

Had a banker. Thank you so much.