Oct. 21, 2025

Drugs: How and why it's vital to talk about them now, with Fiona Spargo-Mabbs OBE

Drugs: How and why it's vital to talk about them now, with Fiona Spargo-Mabbs OBE
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Drugs: How and why it's vital to talk about them now, with Fiona Spargo-Mabbs OBE
Drugs: How and why it's vital to talk about them now, with Fiona Spargo-Mabbs OBE

What do you think of this episode? Do you have any topics you'd like me to cover? To lose a child is one of the worst things any of us an imagine. To lose him at 16 to a recreational drug is an unbearable pain. That's what happened to Fiona Spargo-Mabbs OBE, but she has turned her pain into an incredible quest to turn her 'I wish I'd known', suffering into a book, a drugs education foundation, and support for all of us parents so we never have to go through the pain she has suffered. In...

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Season 5

What do you think of this episode? Do you have any topics you'd like me to cover?

To lose a child is one of the worst things any of us an imagine. To lose him at 16 to a recreational drug is an unbearable pain. That's what happened to Fiona Spargo-Mabbs OBE, but she has turned her pain into an incredible quest to turn her 'I wish I'd known', suffering into a book, a drugs education foundation, and support for all of us parents so we never have to go through the pain she has suffered. 

In this incredible conversation, Fiona discusses the importance of drug education, the prevalence of drug use among youth, and the need for better parental awareness and conversations. 

She emphasizes the significance of understanding drug effects, the rise of synthetic drugs like spice and THC vapes, and the impact of drug use on mental health and addiction. Fiona also highlights the role of peer influence and the importance of providing youth with positive alternatives to drug use, such as sports and community activities.

Fiona Spargo-Mabbs OBE: www.dsmfoundation.org.uk

If you would like more detail, including a printable PDF covering the important lessons of this episode, join

The Big Hug community at: teenagersuntangled.substack.com

Here are just 10 of the things we discuss in this episode:

  1. Most teenagers will face a drug-related decision by age 15, even if they don't use drugs themselves
  2. The adolescent brain is more vulnerable to drug harm and addiction because it's arleady undergoing to rigorous rewiring
  3. Modern drugs are significantly stronger and more dangerous than in previous generations
  4. Peer pressure can be positive - teens can help each other make safer choices
  5. Having pre-planned "escape strategies" and reasons to say no can help teenagers avoid risky situations
  6. Connection and positive activities (sports, music, volunteering) are powerful alternatives to drug use
  7. Parents should have frequent, short conversations about drugs rather than one big intimidating talk
  8. Synthetic drugs like spice can be extremely dangerous, with one in six school vapes potentially containing harmful substances
  9. Understanding how drugs actually work in the brain helps teenagers make more informed decisions
  10. The most effective approach is being a supportive, non-judgmental parent who provides reliable information and creates a safe space for honest conversations

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My email is teenagersuntangled@gmail.com
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You can reach Susie at www.amindful-life.co.uk

WEBVTT

00:00:02.160 --> 00:01:14.459
Rachel, hello and welcome to teenagers untangled the audio hug for parents going through the tween and teen years. I'm Rachel Richards, journalist, mother of two teenagers and two bonus daughters. Now imagine your 16 year old child suffering multiple organ failure and then dying just three days after they pulled their money together with their mates to pay for a recreational drug. The person who supplied the drug was 18. He was jailed, but that doesn't bring back a loved son, and the pain is lifelong, and the sense of futility at their death haunting. That's what happened to Daniel, the son of Fiona Spargo MAbs, back in 2014, well, she turned her grief into action, becoming the founder and director of the Daniel Spargo maps Foundation, a charity dedicated to drug education, harm reduction and supporting us families who are affected by youth drug use. They deliver evidence based drug education programs for schools, which my daughter, incidentally, was received and thought was brilliant. She's been so pivotal that she's received an order of the British Empire, and is appointed to the UK government's Advisory Council for the misuse of drugs. In her book, I wish I'd known, she interweaves Dan's story with evidence, advice and talking points for parents.

00:01:11.040 --> 00:01:16.079
Fiona Spargo, maps. OBE, thank you so much for being with us.

00:01:16.620 --> 00:01:18.299
Thank you so much for inviting me on.

00:01:18.299 --> 00:01:37.879
I do honestly feel very honored, because I am a faithful listener to your podcast, and I find it so incredibly helpful every week I'm there on a Wednesday, looking out for it. Thank you so much for all you do, because it's so beneficial for me in my work and the work that we do as a charity, supporting parents, which is absolutely at the heart of everything.

00:01:38.659 --> 00:01:51.579
Fiona, you've made my year. Thank you. I really appreciate that. Now you call the book I wish I'd known, and you say that when Dan died, you realized so many things, what sort of things were you talking about? Oh, gosh,

00:01:52.840 --> 00:04:18.300
it's so hard, isn't it, because I think the parent guilt thing is there with you from the moment. You know you're expected well for me anyway, you know you feel guilty about what you're doing or not doing what you're eating, and that that parent guilt is really difficult to shake off. And when something goes really badly wrong, that's impossible. So I think it's impossible to forever be rummaging around for what could have been different to make that worst possible outcome different, and to make that world of difference, little, little things really. You know, we'd had conversations. I we had a conversation specifically about ecstasy. About five months before Dan died, when he got back from Reading Festival, as you do, do your GCSEs, saved up his paper around. They all do it to reading. And that was the first time he'd seen people taking ecstasy. So he came back, he was a complete chatterbox, and came back chatting about how funny it was. You know, they were doing this. They were doing that. They looked like this. So, so there were lots of things that we had done, but I didn't realize. I knew drugs were out there, but I didn't realize quite how prevalent they were. I didn't realize quite how easy it is to get hold of them. I didn't realize how normalized it can become for some groups, it's really important to stress that most young people aren't using drugs, if any age the case. But for some they are, and it's and it isn't the big deal that it certainly was when I was younger. And it's it. So I guess, in broad terms, I realized how close drugs were to our door. I realized how difficult it can become to avoid being in situations where you're having to make a decision. Most young people aren't using drugs, but at least half by the age of 15 have already had to make a decision about drugs. So that's really important to understand, and also just for us, we realized how little drug education was available at that point to young people, but also to parents. I just didn't know enough, and I've learned so much since then, and it's impossible again to keep going. Why didn't I know that? Why didn't I Right?

00:04:18.600 --> 00:04:52.300
Why didn't I know and why didn't Dan know? There were so many points at which he could have made different decisions, even at the point of having said yes to the MDMA, there were so many things that could have been done differently that would have reduced the risk and changed the outcome for Dan. So there's lots in broad terms, but also lots in detail that I brought to that conversation more than just, you don't know what's in it. You don't know how much it can just take one time, which was, which was the best I had to bring all of which is true, but it wasn't enough.

00:04:53.079 --> 00:05:31.939
No, no. First of all, I'd love to talk about what actually a drug is, because when I did my drug episode, one of the things that occurred to me was we talk about drug. Drugs a lot, but we're not really precise about it. In fact, we muddy the water because everything's a drug, like exercise is a drug. You know what is? It's really hard to talk about, because I, you know, with my kids, I would bring home prescription drugs, or if I bought some paracetamol, I'd actually take out the information leaflet and go through the information on it, so that they could see the size of research done into these things, just to give them sense, some sense you were going to talk about drugs and say to kids, like, what are we talking about? How do you even frame that?

00:05:32.420 --> 00:07:05.399
So that's a really important question, and it's where we start every single workshop for students and for parents and carers and for teachers, because exactly what you're saying we talk about drugs, but what do we mean, and when you're thinking about the effects that drugs can have, and then the risks that they can have and and then managing decisions around those understanding how they do what they do is really, really important. So the kinds of psychoactive substances, so the kinds of drugs that we would generally categorize as drugs, not shopping or all the other things, right? That's a whole other baggage of conversation about addiction and so on and how that works. But, but psychoactive substances, they're basically they, they are the they act on the brain in such a way that they alter the way that your brain is naturally functioning. So all the neurotransmitters, those little messages, the communication signals that are being fired out around the different regions of our brain all the time, and then around our entire system through our central nervous system. So that messaging network that is interfered with by by drugs. And they do that in quite different ways. There are some kind of common ways they might do that, but also some very different ways. So some drugs, so stimulants, they would stimulate the release of particular neurotransmitters. So people have heard of, I'm sure, of dopamine, for example, your natural, happy high, your pleasure and reward neurotransmitter, and that warm buzz that you get if you have a delicious piece of chocolate cake or whatever. But stuff like serotonin and adrenaline and so on, they're all those messages.

00:07:02.939 --> 00:07:55.660
So those will be altered. So some drugs, like cocaine, for example, that will stimulate the release of dopamine, other stuff as well. Other Drugs slow, slow those messages down. So something like alcohol or cannabis, they'll slow down the messages. So the reaction time between, for example, alcohol, between what you might see and what your brain registers, and then how your body responds, all of that is much slower. And then other drugs, like hallucinogens, they'll alter your perceptions of reality and your experience of time and space and so on. But that's how it's doing. It's altering the way that someone's brain is functioning, they mess with your head. That's what they do, but that's but that's where it starts. And because our brain is where everything starts, that's how the effects can be so global and very specific and quite broad and general as well, interesting.

00:07:55.838 --> 00:08:07.379
And when you go into schools to educate, from what I understand, you actually do some sort of research beforehand to see what's going on in that particular area. Is that, am I right in that?

00:08:07.379 --> 00:08:59.678
Yeah, well, we are specifically about that year group, actually, so, and it's so interesting, interesting. I just had a quick look at where we've got to so far. We've only really been back a few weeks, but we've got 1000 responses already. But it's so it's so useful, because we work right across the country, so right down from the west country up to the North East of Scotland. And we're London based, so we work most intensively across London, but we work all over the place and and in very, very different schools as well, from some very posh schools to some very, very ordinary schools and alternative provision and all sorts. So so it's so important for us, especially with it's with the older students. So year 1112, 13 in England, at 13 to 15 to 18 year olds, we want to hear from them what is relevant, because we've only got so long with them to make a difference, and we want to make sure we're going to do the best we can. And they're the best people to tell us that.

00:08:55.178 --> 00:09:27.619
So it's all about perception. So we ask about their perceptions of what's most prevalent, what's what, what's being used by people in your year group, if they are what's causing most problems, if people have problems, what do you feel? You know already. What do you feel you would be useful for us to bring to this session, where do people in your at your age come across drugs? What do you think the motivation is for people using drugs when they do so, it's really, really interesting.

00:09:24.859 --> 00:09:56.259
And then if they've got any questions, so it's such a, I mean, it's, it's a sample, it's self selecting. You know, it's not, it's, I wouldn't, I wouldn't hold it up as being kind of any robust, scientifically generated survey, but it's a very, very valuable working tool, but it also gives us a really useful overview of trends, and we can add things as well. So in the what's most prevalent, we have an other category, so we can pick things up that we can then add into the survey for the following year.

00:09:56.259 --> 00:10:49.479
So last year's survey added nicotine pouches. Because that was something that was coming out in the survey, but also in conversations in schools. This year we've added THC vapes, which is something that is definitely worth talking about if we get the chance later, because mostly it's not THC, it's spice. So I can say a little bit about that, but, but there are we can pick up on, on trends in use and but also shifts in prevalence. And then, if there's something in a particular school that comes out, like, for example, ketamine, it might be that we need to do a particular focus on that, or it might be steroids in some schools, particularly as couple of boys, independent schools that we work with that where that's that's a particular issue. So so it means that we can give something that's a bit more bespoke, because the issues can be different, the same in terms of what's most prevalent.

00:10:49.479 --> 00:10:58.658
It's always the same baggage of alcohol, nicotine in various forms, cannabis in various forms. But then what that profile can look like can be quite different,

00:10:59.259 --> 00:11:11.580
yes, and I suppose, as a parent, if we panic about one particular drug, or we're focusing our attention on something we read in the press, but we're not actually leaning into our own child's experience, then we're not.

00:11:11.580 --> 00:11:24.019
We're going to miss things, or we'll, we'll misinterpret what's actually happening. And I had a conversation with my daughter last night, how does she know where she would get drugs? What sort of drugs are people using?

00:11:20.179 --> 00:12:11.220
Does she know people in her immediate group who are using drugs? And and it was very, very revealing, because, of course, I try not to be emotional about any of this, and we have had lots of conversations. And yeah, I mean, it's very prevalent. She said, It's all over social media. It's very easy to get hold of drugs. If she's out in the street in the evening, it's very likely she'll have people approach her asking if she wants to, you know, buy drugs, if they go to festivals, any of that stuff. So like you said before, it's really prevalent. And I think as parents, if we don't ask about this, we're just not going to hear it. We're not going to know what they're being exposed to. And I've talked about vapes. And she corrected me and said, I got it wrong about the THC. So shall we talk about the the spice and the vapes first?

00:12:11.279 --> 00:12:14.940
What I'm interested to know, what your daughter said about THC vapes.

00:12:15.480 --> 00:12:47.799
Well, I mean, I got it because I've done all this research into vapes, and even I got it mixed up. So I was, I was talking about vapes and and drugs and vapes, and she said, No, mummy, you'd have to buy, buy a THC pen, and that would be much more expensive than the normal vapes, but you'd have to buy those via some kind of online platform. And I think as a parent, you think, have you been doing this? And but actually, just because kids know that doesn't mean to say they're doing it. It just means that they're very they know other people who are using those things. But so what are your thoughts about this?

00:12:47.799 --> 00:12:56.320
Okay, well, three things that are really interesting. So one is, if you can get so that you can have that kind of conversation where you It's so interesting.

00:12:56.740 --> 00:14:29.000
Our kids have got so much to tell us about which is so interesting. And if you can make it something that doesn't make them feel like you're going to be worrying about them or or panic locking them up forever, or anything like that, then all the stuff that you're always talking about in terms of those curious conversations and so on is so important. Secondly, it's really good that your daughter's got an awareness of THC effect, and linking into that, what we're hearing a lot now is from and from various different places, is how well informed, and that's our experience as well, how well informed, but also not always quite reliably well informed young people are but young people are doing their research. You know, we've got a generation of curious. I mean, teenagers are always curious, aren't they, but they've now got lots of places they can go. And now there are some good places to go, but there are also some less reliable sources of information about drugs and chats online about drugs. But so THC, vapes sometimes kids might call them weed pens or all sorts of different that there can be lots of different kind of local slang names for them. But so THC, for any listeners that aren't aware, that's the psychoactive component of cannabis, that's what basically makes cannabis illegal. So people may be aware of CBD, and it's easy to get the two confused, but CBD isn't illegal.

00:14:29.000 --> 00:14:59.080
Lots and lots of health claims have been made for CBD over the last few years. You can get it in all sorts of products perfectly legally, but THC is not legal, and more recently, that's being available in a form of vaping. So for some people that, I mean, people that use cannabis, some people will vape THC, because it a lot of people that smoke herbal cannabis will have it with tobacco and the risks around that. So it can be seen as a harm reduction thing.

00:14:56.500 --> 00:15:40.480
For people that use cannabis anyway, um. Um, but there is a lot of concern about for exactly what your daughter's saying. If you're getting THC in a vape, mostly it's it's a particular device, and it's quite expensive. If kids are getting online, mostly it will be online or from a friend THC vape refills. Almost always that's going to be spice. A spice is a synthetic cannabinoid. So that's a chemical substance that's been made to replicate. I mean, there are various sorts of spices become a generic name for synthetic cannabinoids. But they, they, they're designed to have a similar, well, they were designed to have a similar effect to THC, but, I mean, it's very, very different really.

00:15:40.480 --> 00:16:00.360
It's a much, much more potent, much more potential for developing an addiction, much more potential for harm. Spice was something we haven't had to talk about in schools, really, ever. I mean, we started the charity 2014 when Dan died, and we started working in schools.

00:15:56.500 --> 00:16:30.799
Just 2015 16 really was our first full year in schools. And in 2016 the law changed, and things like spice, various other names, other the stuff that was being legally sold on high streets that all went out of the High Street. So for young people, that confusing messages, but it's being sold in a shop on a high street. How come? Yes, very confusing. Yeah. So it was a very confusing message. It went off the high street. Most young people, it kind of then went a bit more niche, but mostly spies, because of its it has quite a messed up kind of effect. It's mostly prisons.

00:16:30.799 --> 00:17:13.079
Reasons for that, partly because it doesn't show up in a urine test. You can spray liquid THC on a drawing that a child might do and sneak it into prison, very, very, very high resale value, causing lots of problems, and then the homeless community because it's so cheap. But we haven't had to talk about it in schools, really, for the until the last couple of years, because of spice appearing in vapes edibles as well, to a certain extent. But so the reason why we've particularly focusing on it this year, not only because it was coming out of the survey, coming out of the survey, but because of some research that's been done by the University of Bath, and we've been working very closely with the team that have been doing that over the last year or so.

00:17:09.480 --> 00:17:47.259
So it's Professor Chris Pudney who's been the face of it, but it's his team as well. So they have a lab. They develop devices that test for various different drugs, and they have a device that tests for spice, which has been mostly used in prisons. And Chris thought it would be interesting to test vapes that have been confiscated from schools. So random sample of 500 vapes have been confiscated in schools, and they were just confiscated because people weren't supposed to have vapes in schools, not because there was thought to be anything sinister. He thought it'd be really interesting to see if there's any THC in any of these vapes that have been handed in.

00:17:44.019 --> 00:18:19.079
But he wasn't really expecting to find spice at all. What he found was that one in six of those vapes had got spice in tiny amount of THC, but one in six so he's carried on this device is now more police forces across the UK using this schools are submitting vapes that they're confiscating. They're getting tested. So in some parts of the country, that's as many as one in four. Other parts of the country, it's maybe one in 10, but that's still an awful lot. Now, how many of those young people knew, because spiking vapes is also a thing.

00:18:15.240 --> 00:18:22.099
How many of them knew spice in that vape? But we were alongside that hearing reports in schools.

00:18:22.099 --> 00:18:31.579
You know, her teacher that would say, Do you know we had to call the ambulance last week because three of them had just collapsed. They were just dripping like flies. They're sharing a vape between them.

00:18:28.220 --> 00:18:36.500
It's just so strong. And of course, they're they're just children, you know, teenagers and bodies and brains. They're not

00:18:36.680 --> 00:18:54.339
and and I think I have having spoken to my daughters, the prime time when they start vaping. Is right when they hit secondary school, and it's like a wall of kids who are all going, Oh, it's their way of showing that they're all grown up now. And then it tails off more. I don't know if that's what you're seeing, but that's what I heard.

00:18:55.059 --> 00:19:37.759
Yeah, it seems in the most recent data from ash, which is Action on Smoking health, they do a survey every year, which is really, really useful, and that's really useful for trends, but it seems to have pretty much stabilized, and the numbers vaping regularly actually really low. And actually in the data, it does go up over age rather than down. It might just be interesting. Maybe they're not doing it so visibly as the as the little ones joining secondary school that kind of out there with their vape used to be like that with cigarettes. Back in my day, that was cool. You're smoking a cigarette. And that was that, yeah. So it does Yeah. It might just be that it's that it's less obvious with the older ones, because they're around someone's house doing it, rather than hanging outside. Of course,

00:19:37.759 --> 00:19:52.720
yes. And one thing I wanted to pick up on was you were talking about spice and the synthetic drugs. And one of the things I stumbled on when I was researching was that the nature of the drugs has changed.

00:19:48.640 --> 00:20:00.599
Where people, you know in the 70s would be using some drugs and weed, and they know the effects of it, but what we're seeing now is quite. Different.

00:20:00.599 --> 00:20:13.380
The strength is different. And I did read in one report that the greatest number of psychosis attacks are in South East London, where you've got this big group of people using these drugs. What are your thoughts about that? Am I right? Am I wrong?

00:20:15.598 --> 00:21:04.919
You are right. And there are so many more substances that can be found as contaminants. Now, lots and lots the range of synthetic substances is much wider, some of which are incredibly strong, but there's also greater levels of strength and purity. So there's an organization called the loop, which is a drug checking organization. It's a non profit, and they've been working in clubs and music festivals for number of years now, testing drugs that are submitted in amnesty bins or so on, confiscated or found and put warnings out. But I was listening to presentation yesterday by someone from the loop over what they've been finding in the summer, and generally speaking, if they think they're buying MDMA, it's MDMA almost all of the time if they think it's ketamine is but cocaine has never been purer.

00:21:05.278 --> 00:21:59.138
MDMA strength is now incredibly high. If someone's got an MDMA pill, that is not one. I mean a dose. There is no such thing as a kind of a safe dose of anything, because there are so many different factors that can affect risk for any individual but, but what's generally considered a dose for an adult that won't cause them any particular harm, the average pill has got two, sometimes three, sometimes more times that amount in the pill. And similarly, for cocaine, cannabis is so that's why levels of psychosis are so high, and in parts of London in particular, because the strength of THC in herbal cannabis now, in the varieties that are being grown is just so incredibly strong. So for anyone, any parents who listening, who may have used a bit of weed when they were younger, it's a very different, not the same, yeah, not at all.

00:21:59.138 --> 00:23:15.479
And also people are tending to use it start younger. You know, a lot of people again, maybe 20 years ago or so. They might be in their late teens, early 20s, before they start using cannabis. But now more likely, especially where it's being problematic, mid teens, sometimes early teens, when their brain is just so incredibly vulnerable to to anything. If you go back to that different definition of how drugs are doing, what they're doing, they're altering someone's natural brain chemistry. And if your brain is already going through that rewiring process, drug use is is, particularly in adolescence, it's the riskiest time. It's such a difficult combination of factors. In adolescence, it's when you're you've got that independence, you're out and about on your own, you'll you'll be with your friends, and that social environment, as you know, can create risk in terms of decision making and navigating your own choices safely. You've then got coming, coming across these things, often for the first time, and having to manage those decisions so low, as it were, you know, you haven't got a framework where your your mum's been with you and said, you know, you need to look both ways before you cross the road.

00:23:11.459 --> 00:23:31.699
No, right? And do that with you, generally speaking, and and it's just the time of your life when, when it's going to do most harm as well if you do then if you find that that that is a risk, that you're not able to manage safety, and you try something.

00:23:29.118 --> 00:24:00.159
So it's, it's kind of a perfect storm. So it is going back to again, to where we started with trying to reassure parents that actually most young people aren't doing this. It is, nevertheless, again, what you were saying. It's nobody should be thinking, this is something that my child isn't going to come across, and it's not something that I need to be having a conversation about at home, because you absolutely must, because you just don't know they are very unlikely not to come across it, even if not in real life, then on social media.

00:24:00.279 --> 00:24:13.200
What I'd really like to know is, there's the catastrophic end, which is the end of life. But what are the other things that can go wrong with children taking drugs or adolescents taking drugs?

00:24:13.859 --> 00:24:41.799
A great question. There's so many answers to that. So thankfully, what happened to Dan doesn't normally happen. I mean, it can do and it has done since. But it's not normal. Addiction, of course, is another potential outcome. It's not the most common outcome, either. And depending on the substance, there are different kind of rough percentages of how likely you are if you start using something to end up addicted to it. Addiction is complicated.

00:24:41.799 --> 00:25:32.660
There are lots of different factors that work, but again, in adolescence, with the adolescent brain, it's much more vulnerable to developing an addiction than at any other stage of life, because of that rewiring and addiction changes the wiring of somebody's brain, and if your brain. Is already rewiring itself, reconnecting itself, that can become hardwired in a way that not impossible to unravel at all, but just can be much harder work. There's also, then the impact on mental health. So something like cannabis, particularly can really, really chip away at people's mental health. Again, if you're thinking about drugs, going back to the definition, they're changing someone's natural brain chemistry over a period of time. That's going to alter the way that your brain is firing out the chemicals that would keep that pretty balanced.

00:25:32.960 --> 00:26:54.819
So something like, you know, a stimulant that might over stimulate the release of dopamine, for example, you know, you hear about the ups and downs, so the highs and the lows. So the, if your brain is used to having dopamine artificially stimulated, it will stop doing it by itself as well as it used to just get less efficient at it. So then you're you can end up kind of looking, looking for that elsewhere. So with cannabis particularly, though, I think that's something that people can turn to a lot to try and manage their mental health. So then you get into a chicken and egg situation where that's making it making it worse. With cannabis as well, there's the risk of just general underachievement. You know, cannabis knocks your the way it acts on the brain. It's your you've got a natural endocannabinoid system, and that's so when you put cannabis into it sort of overloads that and stops it functioning so well. And that's your learning, your memory, your mood, your motivation. So that kind of classic stereotype, if you like someone that uses cannabis a lot, it's just very relaxed and they back and kind of not really bothered. But you know, if someone's using cannabis first thing in the morning, they've got a day ahead of them. That's, that's, it's really not going to help them, and particularly a stage of life when learning, memory, mood and motivation are pretty important if they want to be becoming their best shows.

00:26:55.779 --> 00:27:04.019
And then you've got other drugs, like, I mean, something that is in the news almost every day. It seems I've got a weird news radar, I realize, but I'm sure you

00:27:04.019 --> 00:27:07.079
have Yes, yes.

00:27:04.019 --> 00:27:07.079
We're hearing so much about it.

00:27:07.079 --> 00:27:07.500
Yes,

00:27:07.740 --> 00:27:10.200
yeah.

00:27:07.740 --> 00:27:56.980
And ketamine uniquely has this impact on people's bladder, so a physical harm that is very specific, just because of the way that someone's body processes that. And another. I mean, there are lots of different reasons for that, and sometimes people are using ketamine to manage their mental health and maybe sometimes trauma. But because some drugs more than others, and ketamine is one, you develop a tolerance to very, very quickly. Alcohol is another one. I mean, people that drink, and you really, you know, if you have glass of wine, you might if you keep having glass of wine every night, you'll start going to need to have a couple of glasses. Couple of glasses of wine to have that effect that you're looking for, and pretty soon. But ketamine, you develop a tolerance very quickly. So to have that effect you're looking for, people can end up having massive doses, which are then causing that physical harm. So there

00:27:56.980 --> 00:28:02.700
are just to be clear, just to be clear about that. I mean, my bonus daughter is living with me at the moment.

00:28:02.700 --> 00:28:12.839
She's 30, and she has friends who developed incontinence in their 20s. They still are incontinent. So that is really, really horrific impact at these taking these sorts of drugs.

00:28:13.078 --> 00:29:21.558
Yeah, that's it's so sad because, and it's at such a young age, and this is something that is causing a lot of concern at the moment, because it's although use is relatively small still, you know, again, compared to nicotine and alcohol and and cannabis, ketamine, use is still relatively small, but that use has been going up, and the harms have been going up disproportionately in terms of accessing treatment in terms of those bladder neurological problems that people are presenting with. And it's such a young age, you know when people are presenting with significant health harms from using drugs more commonly, they're in their 40s and 50s, and it's after a long time of just causing a lot of a lot of challenges physically to their body. It with ketamine. It can happen so quickly and it and it's like you're saying young people, they're not young people in their early 20s that are experiencing really significant problems with their bladder.

00:29:18.898 --> 00:29:33.739
It's so important. I mean, that's a good for parents at home, if you've if you notice that your child's needing to pee more often, maybe you might see blood in their pee, or, I don't know, you know, they're all sorts of things around privacy.

00:29:31.338 --> 00:29:41.679
You may not get the chance to see if they forget to flush the loo. And it looks there can be certain frequency of bladder use, recurrent abdominal pain.

00:29:42.278 --> 00:29:44.798
Either of those would be one.

00:29:42.278 --> 00:30:37.818
You'd be worried anyway, it could be something absolutely not sinister at all, but but have it, you would be wanting to go. I've noticed that you seem to be needing to use the loo a lot more young people can be really terrified of going and asking anyone about it. There are so. Any barriers to anybody getting help anywhere, which is where those frontline conversations with parents are just so so, so important, because drug use and drug addiction, drug related harm is so stigmatized. World Health Organization ranks drug addiction particularly as the most stigmatized of all social problems. Oh, really interesting, beyond being in prison, beyond really significant mental illness, beyond homelessness, drug use, is there. There's such a lot of really, really good work going on to try and challenge that stigma. But the media doesn't always help.

00:30:38.660 --> 00:30:47.019
And but then people are worried because they're treading a line, cos if you if you don't stigmatize it, then you're worried that you're going to be promoting it. There

00:30:47.859 --> 00:30:53.980
was a really interesting study about that recently, actually, about does can stigma be a good thing?

00:30:54.039 --> 00:31:22.160
And the answer was no. This is a really tricky thing for parents, and it's a question that we often get asked. And as with questions from parents, as you know, there's often not an absolute. This is what you should do. It is protective of young people in terms of using drugs for that to be a value in your family, that this isn't okay. This isn't something that we think is you should be doing.

00:31:15.359 --> 00:31:56.920
But at the same time, if you do, I'm a safe place for you to come back to. I'm not going to judge you. I'm not going to catastrophize. They're not going to be able to be their best self if they're using drugs. That's different from calling people all sorts of junkies or, yeah, whatever, you know, all the kind of language that people use. I was just having a look through the student survey and some of the comments. I mean, teenagers can be very, terribly judgmental of each other. I don't know why these people do these things.

00:31:56.920 --> 00:33:07.019
They're just rich kids with too much money, and all they want to do is make people think they're cool or, you know, just but, but we are the same as adults as well. So I think checking and and having a sense that there will will be something going on for somebody that's using drugs, people use drugs including that's really important for a reason. There is a benefit that they can see from that with addiction, that becomes a point where it's not really, you have no free will really in that, but your brain is looking for the reward that it's seeking. That reward part of your brain becomes so over developed in addiction, other bits get kind of pruned away, but, but it is for parents, really important to to be always mindful it's a cost benefit. We all do that whatever age we are, there's a there's a cost benefit kind of calculation that we do as teenagers. We do always think that through very well and and the risk that we know about using this substance because we've had really good drug education and great conversation with our parents, we've got to weigh that against maybe the social benefit of not missing out or not seeming like this, or perhaps not. Yes, the next time, I

00:33:07.500 --> 00:33:55.000
think that's a super, super important point, because I think there's a tendency for parents to want to help tell kids off if they do something bad, and what we need to do is say, I notice and mentor them to make good decisions. But we have to understand the way our teen brains work, and as Dr David Jaeger said, you know, they do really dumb things, and you think, Oh, they're just incompetent. No, they're not incompetent. They're actually motivated by very clear reasons, status and respect are very important to teenagers and being part of a group. So how would you go in and talk to teenagers about this, the pressure that they might experience in a social situation if they are offered drugs and they're thinking, maybe not, or they're thinking, Oh, I might try that.

00:33:51.519 --> 00:33:58.059
What sort of things do you say to teenagers about how to navigate that?

00:33:59.019 --> 00:34:25.219
One thing that's really useful is if you know that it's possible that you might find that you're facing a decision about drugs and it's not something that you feel comfortable about doing. I mean, obviously there is a lot of curiosity, and there's a lot of actually, that sounds like brilliant fun, and then, you know, there's those are different decisions. But if it's something you don't want to do, if you go into that situation with your reason ready? That cold cognition, you know, you've done that, thinking it through.

00:34:25.519 --> 00:35:59.139
You've got that can be really, really helpful. And you might mean a lovely lungs. You might get a lot of come back. But if you've got, you know, I've got match the next, next day, or whatever, whatever would would work for you, it could just be, it's not my thing. You know, you do you, I'll do me. I love that phrase, but it's that that's fine. But if you go into it with that, the hardest time to make a rational decision for any of us, to be honest, but particularly in adolescence, is when you're in that social environment and people are going gone. I mean, how often have any of us as adults had maybe a. A bit of a drink more than we really wanted to or or a second because someone's gone, oh God, just, you know, yes, or it's just there and it looks delicious, yeah, or fun, or whatever. So having a reason ahead is useful, also, kind of having a suite of excuses and stalling tactics love just to delay that moment of decision is is useful sometimes thinking through, if I know that that situation or that group of people, it's going to end up, it possibly going to end up in a direction I don't want to go into make your excuse before you're even there. You know, don't, don't even go there if you can. Yes, have that excuse before, when I went to university, you knew myself then well enough to know that if I was really pushed to drink, I would find it really difficult not to Yeah, and I did. I've never been drunk in my life.

00:35:56.079 --> 00:36:11.940
I've been a bit wobbly, but I've never been properly drunk because I hate being out of control. I hate the idea that other people know why I'm doing better than I do and not remembering. So that's just me, but I also knew my so when I went to university, I told her I was teetotal, which I wasn't.

00:36:09.659 --> 00:36:17.820
And in those I mean, now it's much more normal for young people to say they don't drink, but in those days, it was weird.

00:36:14.460 --> 00:36:35.059
So I only lasted a week or so, but I just thought, I need to get through freshers in one piece, and I'm not going to do that so, so I, I went with my excuse, now that that kind of worked for me. Actually, nobody was really bothered, apart from my tutor, thought I must be some kind of Puritan or something.

00:36:30.199 --> 00:37:33.079
But sometimes not even being there is useful, a really useful check in that we, that we talk to young people about, is just, would I be doing this if I was on my own? You know that all of these things are so easy to say when you're not in that situation and you're not 15, but that as a kind of a check in, is this something that I would be doing if I was on my own, in in my room? This came from Dan's friend Jack, actually going back to what happened to Dan. Dan's friend Jack was was there with him when it all went so horribly wrong. And Jack hadn't taken anything, but he didn't. They'd all made up some excuse for their mums to be going to this rave, or their dads that they were sleeping over somewhere, you know, as you do. And he didn't tell his mom. He and dad had been really, really good friends for many years, and he didn't tell his parents for good few weeks, and he felt terrible, because he's really close to his family, more and more and more awful. So obviously they knew Dan had died, and they knew that Jack was in absolute pieces.

00:37:29.119 --> 00:38:11.039
They didn't know what he'd been through because he'd been with Dan when it had all gone so badly wrong, and he'd seen him, and finally he told them, and of course, they were just really sorry that he didn't feel he could tongue but, but Jack's advice to other teenagers is, if you can't, tell your mum, it's probably not a good thing to be doing, and, oh yes, advice of a 16 year also use your powers for good is another thing that we always talk about, because peer influence can be such a positive thing, We talk about peer pressure as a negative thing, but peer pressure can be be really good. And if you're in a social group and you're not feeling comfortable, it's very likely you're not the only one.

00:38:11.219 --> 00:38:30.320
And people can put on a big face about who I'm really up for this or whatever, but actually there's a bit of quaking in boots going on around you without anyone seeing it and and if you've got the courage and confidence to be the one that can go, I'm not up for this.

00:38:25.460 --> 00:38:33.500
It's not my kind of thing. Other people are almost certainly going to be going, do you know?

00:38:33.500 --> 00:38:57.940
I don't, it's not really my thing either. And you can, you can let other people off. We talk a lot about looking out for each other, knowing that most young people aren't using drugs, but they're not unlikely to be with someone that is and then you've also, you've got, they've got their own stuff, if it's them, and you're keeping it distanced from them, like you were saying, talking about your daughter in terms of what are other people doing? You're not saying so well, how about you?

00:38:57.940 --> 00:39:25.219
What are you up to? And keeping it so that you're not getting that defensive reaction. But the same with young people, they do genuinely so care about each other. Yes, no intensity, and so worry about if something they worry about their friends. We get many more conversations with people coming up at the end of a workshop about, I'm really worried about my friend, and I don't want to say because I'm not her mom, and I don't know, you know, just, just, just, how do I, how do I make sure that I'm keeping the people around me safe?

00:39:25.820 --> 00:40:04.079
I love that you mentioned that because David, dr, David Jaeger talks about that in 10 to 25 and he in when we were chatting about it, he said teenagers are very pro social, and you can lean into that. So this sort of, well, maybe they don't know. Maybe they don't understand, and you can help them. And I also love this preparation beforehand, because there's a book by Stephen Peters, and it's called the Chimp Paradox. And he has another book called The path through the jungle, and he talks about our chimp so our limbic system, which is the emotional, reactive system. And then our prefrontal cortex. And he talks about the human and the chimp.

00:40:04.199 --> 00:40:51.880
And the human is the one that would say, No, I really don't want to do the alcohol or the drugs or something, and the chimp is the one that would just react in the moment. And he said, everything looks in the computer. And the computer is the bit in your brain that has information from the past. And the chimp will look in the computer if the computer has something positive in it, like the things you've mentioned so you've had the conversation, so how would I deal with a situation? Then the chimps much more likely to make a better decision than if there's nothing in the computer or there's a bad thing in the computer, like a gremlin and and I proof of that is my daughter, when she first went to senior school, went out to a park with some friends that she just made and and one of them bought a bottle of vodka, and everybody was drinking. She didn't drink. And I just said to her, why? Why didn't you drink?

00:40:52.000 --> 00:41:17.039
Because that, to me, would be a very difficult situation to say, to say no to. And she said, Because you told me, you told me that actually, drinking in a, you know, when I'm this age, it's not a healthy thing. And, you know, drinking when you're out in an exposed Park wouldn't be a good So you're absolutely, I completely agree that it really helps beforehand to rehearse. How do you manage a situation if you're going to get stuck in that way?

00:41:17.340 --> 00:41:30.380
That's brilliant. And young people often talk to us about that the voice of mum and dad in their head. Hear my mom in my head going and as parent of a teenager, you can feel like you, it's all completely Teflon.

00:41:30.440 --> 00:41:45.579
Rolling their eyes. Is a new daughter that's such a such a lovely story with for parents, we talk about kind of thinking through scenarios exactly what you're just saying. So in this situation, what would you do, and how, how might that feel?

00:41:45.579 --> 00:42:00.179
And what could we do? And how can I help? One of the things we talked to is being the excuse for your child. For one Yes, oh, my mom, she said, but she will absolutely kill me or whatever, or I've just got to get home.

00:41:58.059 --> 00:43:08.880
I'm really sorry, because I'm absolutely whatever. But we also talk about setting up an escape plan so that you've got a message, an emoji or something that you can send to someone at home, so that they can then call you just sometimes in that social situation, it can be just difficult to get out of it. You haven't got the words to say, I'm not up for this, or whatever your excuses, you know, that's just not going to land right with this group of people at this time, but something really simple and quick and easy that you can send so someone can call you and then you can make your excuse. It's my dad. He's locked himself out again. I'm Yes, let him in whatever he is, and you can think about what those are, or as a parent, you can have a few on hand, but just to just so they say, I'm really sorry. I'm just gonna have to go. My mom will kill me if I don't or whatever, whatever it is. But being that excuse, the key thing with that for parents, that we always say is it's got to be a no questions asked thing. If that's triggers, yes, don't ask, because you just don't want them thinking twice if they think, how am I going to explain this situation when I get home? And chances are they'll tell you at some

00:43:08.880 --> 00:43:32.360
Yeah, because they feel safe if you if you Yes, if you let them feel safe, yes, yes. And I love that, because one other thing I have noticed is that if kids so that one of the things that protected my daughter was she knew I was going to collect her, so she said to her friends, oh, if I if I drink, my mum will smell it on my breath and that it'll be over for me. So that really helped.

00:43:29.300 --> 00:44:02.940
And I think particularly when they're younger, being the parent who goes and collects the kids can give your kids that let out, rather than if they're staying over, and then there's no sort of escape. Yes, yes, no, absolutely. And setting up a get out. They may not need it, but it might be that there is something. So it might be that that she that she doesn't want you to come and pick her up, that we won't stay another hour, or something like that. But you can, you can arrange that being a useful resource for them to keep themselves safe. That's what we want anyway, isn't it?

00:44:03.000 --> 00:44:22.519
We, we are totally hardwired to keep our children safe, yeah, just with no habits to do that, when the world is such a different place now. And so are there other things that you would say to parents that they can do or or information they can use that would really make a difference to opening up these conversations with their kids,

00:44:23.780 --> 00:45:04.500
I would do some research. I think it's important with something like drugs, not to feel disempowered by how little you know or you feel you knows. And we've talked about how well informed young people are, many of them aren't or they're misinformed. There are so many myths, especially with mid and younger teens. I think older teens and young adults may be better clued up, but but younger ones, but even so, don't assume, but also don't feel that you've got to be the expert before you can even broach that conversation, because you can learn together and you can. Be the ignorant one that that learns with them or but do also do your research.

00:45:04.500 --> 00:45:12.239
We've got so many resources on our website, DSM foundation.org.uk, we've got so many resources for parents.

00:45:12.239 --> 00:45:44.440
We've developed a whole suite of downloadable guides on all sorts of different things, and we've got all sorts of websites that we signpost to as well that reliable information. So do some research, take and make opportunities to have those conversations. So how often are you watching a film together and or a drama and someone's using drugs, often very openly, with not necessarily any negative outcomes, but that's an excuse for a conversation, and that's just a side by side thing,

00:45:44.500 --> 00:45:50.739
like, if you reading an article in the news or something, and you can just say, Oh, I've noticed this. What do you think? Yeah, do

00:45:51.699 --> 00:46:08.699
you think that's right, that sounds ridiculous, or Absolutely. So there are opportunities coming at us all over the place, so just be alert to those. If you want to make an opportunity think about when and where would work best. I mean, these are the kinds of things that that you will say all the time as well.

00:46:05.880 --> 00:46:15.780
But you know, when will you have their attention for more than a couple of seconds? When will they not feel under pressure?

00:46:13.800 --> 00:46:21.920
Or, you know, not when they're just going out to a party that's not the time to be doing. And it's that drip drip as well.

00:46:18.420 --> 00:47:35.780
It's that thing about 61 minute conversations being better than 160 minute conversation, especially when there's risk involved. We can feel, as a parent, we've got to kind of sit them down and have this big talk. And actually, that's not how many of us remember that sort of thing anyway, and it's daunting for both us and them to think that we've kind of got to do that all in one go, but that little and often making it a comfortable conversation, making it something that you can both come back to when you need to, and remembering as a parent that if we feel awkward about talking about it, chances are our teenagers feel 10 times more awkward. So not not making a big deal of it, but while also being very clear about there are there are risks, there are risks, thinking through what the consequences can be. And the decision making stuff is so important, the how you can manage because the all of the data in in all of the surveys that are done of teenagers, mostly they're getting drugs from friends. They're coming across drugs in situations when they're with their friends.

00:47:32.179 --> 00:47:53.440
They're using drugs with their friends. Their friends are around. It's a friends, friends, friends thing. Some people are using drugs on their own, but very, very small numbers, and if they are, that's a real worry, but it's that social environment, so all the decision making that's such an important part of those conversations, and helping teenagers to understand why that can be difficult. Why?

00:47:53.739 --> 00:48:05.460
Why? Sometimes they can do something just immediately go, why? Why did I do that? That was really stupid. It's just because it wasn't stupid. There will be reasons why they did that, and understanding is is really important. And

00:48:05.460 --> 00:48:37.579
listen, and I want to really, just before we finish as I want to talk about the reason kids do drugs. I know somebody who's a physical trainer who shared a drug addiction when she was younger because she started at school, and it was a very difficult thing to deal with, and she's very pro exercise, other things that kids can be doing that will give them that, that feeling of excitement and status, and all sorts of things that can help them. The research that's

00:48:37.579 --> 00:50:00.239
been done on risk and protective factors around adolescent substance use. A lot of those protective factors are generic across whole lots of risks. So positive, self esteem, valuing your physical health, good coping, problem solving, strategies, engagement with sports, culture, religion, work or volunteering, those things where you're doing something that that's bigger than yourself, but also those things, if you've got a child that's that's maybe really impulsive, might be ADHD, but it could just be, you've got a child that's just really got loads of energy and and needs that buzz, it seems, and some people, it seems, naturally have lower recurring levels of dopamine. So then they're looking for that in something else. So what? What gives them that buzz in that rush? And it could be sports are great for that, but not everyone's into sports. So it might be that it's that it's drama or music, or it might be baking, whatever it is. Find finding that something and trying things out. And if they're young enough to try it together, that's fun too, but, but finding ways to give them that sense of reward and also that they're that they're important, what they're doing is matters and values. That's where, yes, something, something that's kind of part of something organized, can be very useful.

00:49:57.219 --> 00:50:03.898
Often you've got. Really positive adult role models around as part of that as well.

00:50:03.898 --> 00:50:35.119
But also they've, they've got a role their matter. If you're in a sports team, it doesn't have to be sports at all. Or if you're in a play, or, you know, whatever, you've got a role and and what you do matters for other people. And there's a kind of a goal in sight, and there's, there's a lot that can be very so protective and provide things that drugs don't otherwise provide. This. There's a very brilliant TED Talk by Johan Hari, who I love, yes, I was thinking about that. Go on.

00:50:35.298 --> 00:50:43.179
Yeah. So a great line from that is the opposite of addiction is connection, exactly what I thought of, right, right? Yeah.

00:50:44.139 --> 00:50:58.659
I love that, because it's there are so many ways that we can be that connection and create other connections for our teenagers so that they've got they've getting that reward in places that aren't going to cause them harm.

00:51:00.099 --> 00:51:13.619
I absolutely love that. Fiona Spargo MAbs, thank you so much for spending this time with us. I urge listeners to go to the website, which will be in the link Fiona's already mentioned it.

00:51:09.599 --> 00:51:39.019
It's got so many great bits of information that you can access whether you're worried about a child's addiction. I think it's ask Frank, isn't it is an incredible resource. Yeah, and my daughter, instantly she if she hears anything about drugs, she will go to that, because it has so much information. I think a lot of more kids are aware of it. But if you as a parent are thinking, I'm not sure, use that, because it's got it's brilliant, isn't it?

00:51:39.019 --> 00:51:40.480
It is.

00:51:39.019 --> 00:52:02.699
It's the government site for young people, so it's managed by social care. So is really sound information? Actually interesting. They've just released a couple of little videos, one on ketamine and one on th action. The videos on on synthetic opioids. But they've, they've just kind of done a relaunch of the ketamine pages as well. So no, absolutely do have a look at that. They've also got really interesting bit that's about drug interactions.

00:52:02.760 --> 00:52:11.519
So ketamine and alcohol, for example, do not mix well. So anyway, that's really useful and interesting for parents, and that's a useful

00:52:11.519 --> 00:52:29.840
policy and for the kids, because I think this comes back to the whole thing I started with, which is when, if you actually educate your kids and say, so here's what people do when they're launching a drug onto the market and it's been tested, and here's all the side effects and all the you know you get a drug from someone else, where is your information?

00:52:29.900 --> 00:52:39.920
Where's your list of contraindications? And once you educate them about how this works, then they can go and look and make decisions before they start trying these things.

00:52:39.920 --> 00:52:43.900
Because you said one of the problems for Daniel was he didn't know some of didn't know some of these things.

00:52:43.960 --> 00:52:59.500
No, he didn't. No, he didn't. And, and, yeah, yeah, I wish he'd know more, which is why we started the charity, because we just wanted to make sure that other young people and parents were better informed that he then he and I had been so well.

00:52:59.500 --> 00:53:02.579
Thank you for all the work you do. Can you remind us? So how do we find you?

00:53:03.539 --> 00:53:12.000
Www, dot DSM foundation.org.uk, DSM, as in, Daniel Spargo, MAbs, brilliant. Thank you. If

00:53:12.000 --> 00:53:48.219
you found this useful, please, please, please, send it to anybody and everyone who might benefit from it. Share it on your school WhatsApp groups or any of this stuff on your social media platforms. You can find me on Instagram. You can find me on substack, where I do a lot more long form conversations about things that we've talked about in the podcast. My website is www.teenagersuntangled.com. My substack is teenagersuntangled.substack.com That's it from us. Thank you so much. Fiona, once again, Big hug from me, bye, bye. See.