7: Lockdown isolation. Did Covid really have that much of an impact on our teens, and the teenage sleep conundrum.

 
1
Speaker 1
0:01
Hello, I'm Rachel and welcome to teenagers untangle the podcast about everything to do with raising teenagers. When our kids were little, there were lots of ways in which we could meet up with other parents to share and laugh about our problems. But once they head off to senior school, those regular points of contact with other parents all away, and the problems can be far more difficult. That's why we started this podcast to chat about what it takes to raise a team, and hopefully have a bit of light relief along the way. Welcome, pull up a chair and let's begin. Joining me is Susie ously, mindfulness coach and parent of three teenagers. Hi, Susie. Hi, Rachel. Coming up, our question is from Simon who says sleep seems to have become a bit of an issue in our house. So please settle this for us. Should I let my teenager sleeping at the weekend, or keep him to a regular schedule. But first, we've been asked by school to look into the way in which COVID has impacted the lives of our teens. Well, apart from the positive that our kids now know how to wash their hands properly, and that picking their nose isn't just dirty, it might end them up in isolation for a week COVID has given teenagers a bit of a bashing. Recent analysis for the BBC says there's been a 77% rise in severe mental health cases in under a teens and that head teachers are also reporting a huge rise in less severe mental health issues. Susie, I think the schooling has been a big issue.
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Speaker 2
1:25
Yes, and unschooling has been very, very, very varied for depending on what kind of a school you're at, what kind of what your teachers are like. And I think that's been that's been really hard for the children. And I think at the time, you know, they didn't really think much about it, mine didn't anyway, I had one doing GCSE. So he kind of felt he got a bit of a an easy ride, which he absolutely did. I did you know, I did ask my daughter, whether she would be knowing that we were doing going to be talking about this, what would we be like to go back into lockdown again. And she immediately went, Oh, that'd be really nice. Then when actually know that it wouldn't be it would be really nice for a week, which means she just wants a week off. But the idea of not being with her friends and not having structure and not having to do things made her say no, actually, I would not like that.
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Speaker 1
2:19
I think that's a really good point. Because the loneliness and isolation in a recent survey of over 200 of place to BS frontline mental health professionals. That was one of the key things that teenagers have been struggling with. And I suppose when we talk about teenagers, it's the time of their life when they're trying to stretch their wings. Try out being single and alone. And yeah, and having to do things on your own. And suddenly you find your, your parents and the friendship groups that you're trying to build have fallen away, because how many of them are really good at communicating with each other?
2
Speaker 2
2:57
Apart from the gamers, okay. Yeah, no, they're teenagers. Listen, we talked about this last week, it's the sense of belonging isn't it, and they're supposed to be breaking ties with their parent, they're annoying parents are which I am very much one. And they're supposed to be hanging out with their mates. And suddenly they couldn't do that. I mean, personally, I think it was probably the hardest for the teenagers, the younger kids seem to bounce back more easily. And I think also for us in our family. And I've heard other friends say there's there's an element of if you're an introvert or an extrovert, how you dealt with lockdown. And the introverts total generalization. I know. They need to recharge, they're happy not seeing people, you know, you doesn't mean you're shy. It just means your energy levels, you need to recharge when you've been with being sociable, you need to recharge. So we are three introverts in our house. So we were like, Oh, this is quite nice to go out and do stuff, although after a while you miss it. And I have an extrovert child, which doesn't mean he's crazy and wild, it means that he gets energy by socializing. So he found locked down really hard, and has been making up for it ever since.
1
Speaker 1
4:03
as have I. And I think that in itself is a very important point too, because Julie Hubbard, the professor of Psychological and Brain Sciences at the University of Delaware, stresses that it wasn't the same for all teenagers. In fact, it's a very, very difficult time for building relationships. And there are will have been teenagers who found it a massive relief not having to interact with other teenagers. The only problem with that is that they then lose out on building those skills of managing problems with friends, managing how you communicate in a different environment, how you build new friends, how you fix friendships, when things go wrong. And these are all skills that when I talk to parents of children who have grown up, they say actually, it really helps at work. It really helps in the boardroom, you know all the horrible things that happened where you feel terrible as a parent Aren't you like, Oh no, why is my child having these friendship problems? Well, when they're older, they draw on all those experiences to be better in their workplace. But if they're missing out on that, then that's going to be very difficult for them. And the increase in anxiety, as as a result of that is really problematic.
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Speaker 2
5:20
Yeah, I think a lot of teenagers and I know statistically as well, it was when when we went out of lockdown, and back into normality in massive inverted commas. And that was when a lot of teenagers actually struggled the most, because of that they have done, you know, had the relief of not having to be put in difficult social situations or whatever their particular thing was. And then suddenly, they were confronted with it. And that was quite overwhelming for a lot of them. So yeah, and
1
Speaker 1
5:47
then also, different places in the world are coping differently. Some places, we're all coming out of it, all the restrictions are coming off, other places are still going back into it again. And if when your child suddenly tests positive COVID, and is forced to stay at home, if those relationships haven't developed yet, particularly those children who went into that first year when they just started senior school, and then suddenly, they've got to stay at home for a week, they come back to school, and all their relationships have changed. And it's traumatic is really, really difficult. And you made a point when we were chatting before about how boys, you know, it's kind of relates to football, or you know, what sports they're doing, and they just go back into the group. Whereas with girls, it can be much more tricky. Yes,
2
Speaker 2
6:33
I might have two boys and one girl and often and twins boy girl twins and sometimes, you know, if my daughter is having like, completely normal girl friendship things and is talking about, you know, this is going on this, this this, he just looks at her and like in disbelief and not judging, but just like, if she's tricky, or if she's annoying, why friends with her. Because it's like, when you're a girl, there is activity based their friendships or activity based, of course, they like each other. But girls is there are a whole different layers.
1
Speaker 1
7:08
And again, if they're not getting those activities, that's really problematic. So I think for all of us trying to manage it's it's the scaffolding around a teenager's life, and around everyone's lives, let's not, let's not pretend it's just teenagers who've suffered, we've all suffered. But I think for the teenagers, when they're trying to start moving on, they really need that scaffolding still in place. The education side is particularly interesting, because it has really, really enhanced inequalities. And it's very clear that that's the case. So you know, the children who've had access to online learning have had a much easier ride a bit in some respects and others, but even there, you know, my daughter's very academic. And she said, she's very upset and and stressed by the fact that even though she works extremely hard, she doesn't know whether people will even value the grades that she gets. Because of all the question marks over the grading structured everything Shifting Sands, the government's looking at it saying, Okay, we realize there was massive grade inflation, because the teachers were marking the kids work. So now where do we go? Do we do we actually drop all those grades back down again? Do we change the grading structure? And at the moment in the UK, they've decided to reduce the course load? Yeah. So that it's, it's, it's kind of on the the students who've missed out, but then there's a knock on impact. So if you're then intending to continue with that study, at a level or your your higher level of qualifications, that's going to cause some real problems.
2
Speaker 2
8:38
Is that with my with my eldest who started eight levels this year? And he, because obviously in COVID, and when it was all really tricky, and there was such unbelievable inequality with the with the teaching, then you had to do that, of course, no one would question that. Absolutely right thing to do the right thing was to make sure the kids were all right, mentally. But now there is a consequence in that I know in some of his subjects, and he's picked some quite hard subjects. Because the courses was bits were taken out of the courses, it means that there are topics that they haven't covered, and they're random. So not all kids have missed all the same. So it must be an absolute nightmare for the teachers. And an
1
Speaker 1
9:14
interesting study I saw said that mouth covering in schools has had a big impact as well. It's a man called Manfred Spitzer, who was pointing out that are it's blocking, it's blocking emotional signaling between teachers and pupils. And emotions play a very important role in our social interactions. And the problem is that the face masks a covering over the part of the face that showing exactly how you're feeling about somebody. Sue said all these signals are being missed. And teenagers are particularly receptive to the emotions in another person's face. That's really Yeah,
2
Speaker 2
9:51
I know I've taught in classes since since I've been wearing face masks when I teach mindfulness in schools and I have a whole class and It is quite weird. I mean, I'm not in there every day and all day. But I found I found personally that the kids who are maybe a little bit shy, and maybe don't speak that loudly, I couldn't really hear what they were saying, because clearly I sort of half lip read when they're talking and you can't. And so that's quite awkward for them. Yeah, interesting.
1
Speaker 1
10:22
So coming back to the long term impact, I think the loneliness and isolation and the relationship difficulties are one of the things that we can support our kids with. And I remember when I was at university, deciding in the end, towards the end of the second year, that I wasn't going to be able to do this. And I was very scared about taking my finals. And I went into one of my tutors and and impulsively said, so I've decided I'm going to take you out, because I really need to do some research, and then think about what I want to do after university. And I came up with this ridiculous idea. And he, you know, tried to cover his laughter, but he was, and he was polite about it. But he just basically said, that's a really, really terrible idea. And I said, why? And he said, because all the experience we have with students is that when you take timeout, and you move away from a social group that you're in, you don't come back and you don't succeed, you know, you won't come back to what it was because it's not the same as the social group that keeps you going. Interesting. And so I think the impact of COVID has been pulling people out of those social groups and networks. What's happened by actually having all this period of time when, you know, seemingly nothing was really happening there was sort of learning online, but they weren't. And I think it's actually, in a way made them think, Well, does it really matter? In every respect, because there's a question mark over grades, and there's a question mark over, you know, how their careers are going to pan out and what they're going to do after school. And, you know, all these people who stayed at home all the time, well, Where did that money go? Yeah, what's what's happened? And yeah, you know, does it? Does it make any difference?
2
Speaker 2
12:01
Yeah. So they kind of flit in and out of this big worry of what does it mean, this sort of accumulative effect of it and what's what's going on in the grades and careers and all of that? And then at the same time, they're also what's for lunch? You know, who's coming around later? And if that were, if that's working really well, then then I'm fine. Yeah. So it's a funny sort of ping pong between the two
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Speaker 1
12:23
pleased to be which is the group, the charity that provides mental health support, had some great tips for how we can support our teenager, one of the ones was reminding your child about what they actually want to achieve, talk about the future talk about gaining skills and experience and things they're interested in, because that gives them a sense that there is a future and there are goals to be had, reminding them of how valued they are, irrespective of what the grading systems are in schools, because again, it's a shifting sand, and it must be making them feel a bit destabilized. It has been really hard for a lot of us not seeing our loved ones are seeing our friends. So we've they're keen to see them, just finding ways that they can and, and finding ways that are supportive of them seeing friends, which aren't too challenging for the ones who have found their relationships with the other kids. That's cool, very difficult. One of the other things they mentioned was the way that we respond to the problem. And it reminded me of the most amazing piece I did for World Service radio, where I was presenting a British news program. And we had a report from Northern Ireland and the Troubles in Northern Ireland. And they were parents who were having to take their children across lines from a Catholic area, for example, into a Protestant diarrhea, or vice versa. And in doing so they then had to run the gauntlet of people who were standing outside the school shouting obscenities at these poor families, which is bizarre, bizarre when you think about it, but it was happening. And in doing so, we spoke to a psychologist about how those children would be affected long term by this experience. And the psychologist said, if the parent, whether it's a mother or father walked down that line, and seemed that they were coping that they were not necessarily on troubled, but they could they could do it and it wasn't a big thing. The child would be fine. It was when parents fell apart that it became a real scarring, experience. And I think we can take from that. What pleased to be a saying is we just need to try even when it's feels like everything's falling apart from us, the more we can protect our teenagers and say, you know, it's fine. It's going to be fine, then I think that they will take their cue from us because we've got the experience out in the big world and they will think okay, I can do this. It's
2
Speaker 2
14:48
really interesting. I think that's a really good illustration That's horrific stories. But it's so hard isn't it because you know everyone experienced COVID In such a different way and and you also need to be authentic with Your kids, especially the teenagers, because they pick up on everything. So you know, on the one side, if you go, Oh, everything's fine. And they're like, Yeah, but you're giving me the signal that everything's really not fine. You also kind of, I guess, need to be authentic in it and explain that there is some stuff going on. But but you know, the message that the tone we set with our kids in whatever we do, is really important. And that's our responsibility.
1
Speaker 1
15:24
We used to do this and parent in parenting is about finding that balance, when they turn into a teenager, there's a blurred line, and you can start to be more of a friend, but you're not a friend. And as a parent, the onus is on you not to divulge all the problems not to talk, they don't need to know some of the things you're struggling with. You can tell them I'm having a difficult time. But they don't need to know all the details
2
Speaker 2
15:48
of authenticity can can be Yeah, I'm having a really tough time I'm on it, I've got it sorted. I'm having help I need to or whatever it is. I will be okay. And maybe not okay, today, but I will be okay. And, and but explaining that actually what you're picking up on is is also real
1
Speaker 1
16:06
is real. Exactly. And then they know that. Okay, we're not hiding that there's some sort of weird, bogeyman in the cupboard that we don't understand. Yes, absolutely. The final thing was really, the place to be was saying was is really important to try and find time to just touch base with your teenager, check in with them when you're together and make space for them to talk about how they're feeling about things. Just make it into a habit. Because as long as they feel that it's okay to talk, when they have are having a problem. You don't have to do it regularly. You don't have to, like, okay, it's five o'clock on a Saturday night, we're going to have this conversation. They wouldn't be there if you do that they weren't exactly. And then when they do tell you something, validate it don't go to be stupid, or, you know, we have to actually say, okay, I can see that that would be really difficult. And, you know, sometimes they don't need more than that. They just want you to listen. How have your teens been affected by COVID? And all of this stop starting? We'd love to hear from you message us on help at teenagers untangle.com. And now for our question, which comes from Simon who says sleep seems to have become a big issue in our house, should I let my teenager sleeping at the weekend or keep them to a regular shedule both the National Sleep Foundation and the American Academy of Sleep Medicine agree that teens need between eight and 10 hours of sleep per night. And surveys indicate that many parents don't realize their children are having sleep problems. Parents I speak to. Yeah, like I'd like enough sleep. Yeah, exactly. What about me?
17:36
I think sleep is like a national thing that we're already good at.
1
Speaker 1
17:39
Yeah, I think that's right. He just sleeps for wimps. Yeah, obviously, when
2
Speaker 2
17:44
you die. Oh, yeah, there's still that people still believe that will crawl through the day and,
1
Speaker 1
17:49
and yet, I saw a really good piece. And I've completely forgotten who it was. Where he said, If you could take a pill, and it would make you perform better academically, it would give you way more energy, it would make you far more emotionally stable and far more fun. And you wouldn't overeat. Would you take the pill? And everyone goes, yeah, and he said, That's what sleep does. And there are no side effects.
2
Speaker 2
18:16
Wow, amazing. So how can we are so rubbish in myself included organising that, but for teenagers, the question being should they sleep in the weekend? I mean, I for all of this, I'm just saying my experience. Yeah.
18:33
teaches everyone I mentioned it to wish Yeah, yeah.
2
Speaker 2
18:35
Cool. Like, I think, you know, it's still historically you know, we, when we were teenagers, which was a long time, you know, try and get the teenagers up and it was seen as a bad thing to let your teen sleep in. And and I think we know for sure now that that's known rubbish. They need to sleep long and their circadian rhythm changes and all of that. But it's quite hard to manage. I mean, my especially with, you know, the gaming and stuff and they may be sleeping all weekend, and then they're not tired Sunday night. And then like,
1
Speaker 1
19:05
No, that's a very important point, because I used to present as I was a World News Anchor per CNBC, and my ship started at three o'clock in the morning, lucky me. And that was really hard, because it was five days a week, and then I'd get to Friday exhausted, but that would be my night to go out. So you know, I just carry on and then I'd feel really like I was spaced out all weekend, but I just keep going because this was my weekend and my one time to have fun. And then come Sunday, I couldn't sleep. And I but I would there was also the excitement and anxiety that I had to perform the next day. So you get this building pressure. And I'm sure a lot of teenagers will feel like this, that this there's this you're sort of a bit zombie weird, overexcited at the weekend, or you're sleeping in and then you're kind of Crossing time zones all the time. Yeah. which is very difficult. But is there a right right answer? Not really.
2
Speaker 2
20:04
I don't know. I mean, kids are different as well, aren't they? I mean, and and the weekdays, then it's not expecting that they're going to be fed because they're groggy.
1
Speaker 1
20:14
The important thing we should mention is that in all the research, it says that the melatonin in a teenager slips, so when it kicks in, is later than when they're a young child or as an adult. And it then stays in place longer in the morning. So when your teenagers is expected to get up and go to school early, don't be surprised if they are very annoyed about it, or just not really capable to make sense.
2
Speaker 2
20:43
If there's a clock in the morning to them. As to way too early. There is a country and I'm not sure if it's Sweden, it could be where they have done studies where they stopped. Teenagers coming in school, they start at 10 o'clock in the morning, and everything is much better. Obviously, the team,
21:00
they're going to start at 10 in the morning to
2
Speaker 2
21:03
good. But obviously, you know, the structure of society means that that's really, really difficult to manage.
1
Speaker 1
21:09
Yes. I remember my stepdaughters. At that time, we used to get the mobile phone bills, and they would list every single text. I'd look at this bill that was, I don't know, 2030 pages long with text messages all the way through the night, you know, two, three in the morning. And whenever they'd come to stay, they would be sleeping until one in the afternoon or the weekend. And my other kids would go when are they getting? Teenagers are teenagers are teenagers. But it was not surprising because they had been up all night texting. I think that's actually one of those ones where we get these little blind spots. So one of my friends said her teenage daughter was struggling with sleep. And I said, Oh, you know, what's going on? how's this working? And she said, You know, it's the texting and the messaging. And I said, Well, so what I found is you take the phone away, and you put it downstairs. So my kids, it basically 930 devices downstairs, thank you. And they can be on charge. You can do other things. I don't care. But you need to be going into your sleep routine. And she said, Yeah, but she uses it has her alarm clock. I said, you can buy cheap alarm clock. She doesn't need to use a phone. And it was just one of those situations where she went Oh, yeah, of course, what would be really helpful for us is to every now and then audit are teenagers set up with them to say, shall we just have a chat? How is this working out for you? You know, if they're struggling to get up in the morning, if they are sleeping in very late at the weekends, maybe have a look at how it's all set up and discuss it with them and say there is a problem here. Can we adjust things slightly?
2
Speaker 2
22:45
Yeah, I mean, I've kind of tried that. And persistent showing. My twins, they do not have their phones at night, they would like to have, especially one of them. And it's because it's exciting. It's fun, it's banter. It's like and you can hear it pinging. And it's not in his room.
1
Speaker 1
23:03
And it's the one time when there aren't adults around. Right,
2
Speaker 2
23:07
fine. And you know, phones have obviously designed to keep them keep them pinging. But there are you know, there are and I have this conversation where elders there are three variables. I always think that, you know, teenagers and adults and myself included. There's like the basics. It's sleep, nutrition and exercise. And they're really simple to sort their fundamental, and we're really bad at them. Absolutely, it's a big one. So we have these discussions and, you know, slow changes, my eldest is getting better at it, but it's been a long struggle.
1
Speaker 1
23:39
And it's actually really, really important and without wanting to over stress it prolong sleep loss is connected to mental health disorders like anxiety, depression, bipolar disorder, suicide, even weight, and diabetes. So I heard on the radio just the other day, a scientist saying we're starting to wonder whether the big increase in obesity in teenagers could be linked to lack of sleep, and whether that's true or not, who knows. But he said, there's a tendency when you're tired to eat another 250 calories on average, and usually they're not good calories. They're in front
24:17
of you. Exactly. Sweet.
1
Speaker 1
24:18
So what's what can I eat now that will keep me awake? Because you know, going to bed is not an option. So this is the problem with that. And then also the risk taking increases. They found TJ teenagers and far more likely to engage in drug use alcohol use smoking risky sexual behavior, if they're tired.
2
Speaker 2
24:35
Yes, I mean, sleep is crucial. And I've totally put my hand up for I'm terrible at it. You know, I just do things a bit too late and then go to bed a little bit too late. And it's just so annoying that because of the melatonin and the change in that, that they often do wake up at about 11pm And then when they come in and go it's particularly my eldest because yeah, yeah, I don't think the younger ones is kicked in as much. Yeah, well let's Cook lets you know fine.
1
Speaker 1
25:02
Yeah. And that's a special time together. Yes. Which
2
Speaker 2
25:05
then means I'm knackered the next day, but you know, that's I judge that to be totally worth it. And also with sleep, I think we get used to feeling sleep deprived, I think that can be really and I think teenagers do as well I know that mine have, you know, they get, it's like when you have newborns isn't it and I had twins and a tiny toddler as well. So I had a long time of just living in a fog. And you get used to it. And I'm sure that my teens, you know, they have a lot of late nights and and they they you can't remember what it's like to not feel tired. It's just becomes normal. Yes, things
1
Speaker 1
25:39
to talk to your teenager about budgeting eight hours of sleep into a weak day shedule. My daughter said, How on earth am I supposed to do that? Because she's working really, really hard. So when you've got a highly ambitious, very driven teen who goes into school, or they come home, and they're working till quite late, and she always says to me, you know, I get really interested at 10 o'clock at night. And I said, Well, I guess just go with it. Yeah, you know, sleep, can you sleep when you get home? Yeah, no, she's not creating a consistent bedtime routine to help with relaxation and falling sleep. So literally, you can say, Okay, we need to have that bedtime routine kick in at this time. And here's what you can do to create a good routine. So a cool room, the stuff can't be in it, your work and your your devices and everything they need to come out of the room. Because otherwise you see your room as something other than some way where you sleep. Having a shower, before you go to bed is a fantastic thing because it raises your temperature and then your temperature drops. And then you're more likely to fall asleep. Because yes, that's absolutely the case. Avoiding the obvious caffeine and energy drinks, which you know, I like a hot chocolate but caffeine in it. But you know, I'm sure that's not helping me. mattresses, pillows, are they good? You know, has your child got a pillow that they feel comfortable, just little things like that. But it's worth going through all of those things.
2
Speaker 2
27:03
And mindfulness as well. I mean, I might wide also had, she had quite a long time where she struggled to fall asleep. And then it became you know, thing that she thought about I can't fall asleep. And, and she had and I would guide her through various things, which was helpful, or the other boys as well, if they had stressful things the next day, you know, like a body scan with them. And it always really, really helped. But then there's so many CDs out there not CDs that's showing my age, so many things you can find online, downloading mindfulness, bedtime things, there are millions out there on you know, everywhere, and they're really good. She had some particularly ones that they were really, really helpful. So that's definitely
1
Speaker 1
27:42
selling cognitive behavioral therapy a bit. It's getting too much. No problems are
2
Speaker 2
27:46
often thoughts at bedtime. And that's what I teach kids. When I'm teaching mindfulness, it's the thoughts that are keeping you up. It's so we want to get out of our heads, busy heads, because suddenly your head gets busy at night, because it's quiet. Your mind goes, Oh, look, all these things you need to remember and worry about. I really fun to into your body. So using your breath and using meditation skills can be really, really helpful, even if it's just for a few minutes.
1
Speaker 1
28:11
And I read a fantastic piece, where the guy said what you have to do is very often it's exactly that you lie down, and you start worrying about all of the things. And he said, so one of the great things to do is you need to set aside half an hour to worry. Or 10 minutes to worry or something. Piece of paper. Worry. You've got to worry, right? Yeah, but then you're not allowed to worry after that. Okay? You mean to just not getting enough time during the day to do those things. So actually giving yourself the chance to do them can help. But I love your body scan thing. What a wonderful thing because
2
Speaker 2
28:45
worrying like I just sitting here thinking that sounds great, but my mind might not listen to that. It might go Yeah, I know. I'm worried earlier, but here it is, again.
28:56
Just did I write it down?
29:00
Do that one more time. So you want to get out of your body? Just for the Hard of Hearing the back the worries come back.
1
Speaker 1
29:11
How do you regulate sleep in your family? Do you have any great tips for us? We as you can hear we would love to hear your tips. And you can find us on Facebook, Instagram and you can email us at help at teenagers untangled.com. In our next episode, we take a look at sibling rivalry. Is it inevitable? Is it a bad thing? Or can you turn it into something positive? And this time we're going to tackle a question from mums net user Mrs. Denzel. My 13 year old daughter is an absolute nightmare at home yet school give her a glowing report. I've heard that one before. I've recently found out she's been vaping she was grounded but I'm sure she's still doing it. Now. It's escalated to the point of swearing. I'm at my end of my tether I feel physically and mentally unwell. It's an interesting one too. So That's it for now. In the meantime, if you'd like to learn more about mindfulness, both one to ones or courses, or A scanning technique, you can find Susie on Instagram and her details are on Susie as the mindfulness.co.uk and you've made it to the end of teenagers untangle well done have a sticker from cesium me. Thanks for being here. Goodbye. Goodbye.
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Teenagers Untangled Episode Seven real_mixdown

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Teenagers Untangled Episode Seven real_mixdown


Sun, 2/13 · 11:22 AM

31:15
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
teenagerssleepproblemsparentschildfriendsbitmindfulnessteensdayhearkidsgradesnighteldestbigdifficultschoolweekendquestion

SPEAKERS
Speaker 1 (66%),
Speaker 2 (33%)
1
Speaker 1
0:01
Hello, I'm Rachel and welcome to teenagers untangle the podcast about everything to do with raising teenagers. When our kids were little, there were lots of ways in which we could meet up with other parents to share and laugh about our problems. But once they head off to senior school, those regular points of contact with other parents all away, and the problems can be far more difficult. That's why we started this podcast to chat about what it takes to raise a team, and hopefully have a bit of light relief along the way. Welcome, pull up a chair and let's begin. Joining me is Susie ously, mindfulness coach and parent of three teenagers. Hi, Susie. Hi, Rachel. Coming up, our question is from Simon who says sleep seems to have become a bit of an issue in our house. So please settle this for us. Should I let my teenager sleeping at the weekend, or keep him to a regular schedule. But first, we've been asked by school to look into the way in which COVID has impacted the lives of our teens. Well, apart from the positive that our kids now know how to wash their hands properly, and that picking their nose isn't just dirty, it might end them up in isolation for a week COVID has given teenagers a bit of a bashing. Recent analysis for the BBC says there's been a 77% rise in severe mental health cases in under a teens and that head teachers are also reporting a huge rise in less severe mental health issues. Susie, I think the schooling has been a big issue.
2
Speaker 2
1:25
Yes, and unschooling has been very, very, very varied for depending on what kind of a school you're at, what kind of what your teachers are like. And I think that's been that's been really hard for the children. And I think at the time, you know, they didn't really think much about it, mine didn't anyway, I had one doing GCSE. So he kind of felt he got a bit of a an easy ride, which he absolutely did. I did you know, I did ask my daughter, whether she would be knowing that we were doing going to be talking about this, what would we be like to go back into lockdown again. And she immediately went, Oh, that'd be really nice. Then when actually know that it wouldn't be it would be really nice for a week, which means she just wants a week off. But the idea of not being with her friends and not having structure and not having to do things made her say no, actually, I would not like that.
1
Speaker 1
2:19
I think that's a really good point. Because the loneliness and isolation in a recent survey of over 200 of place to BS frontline mental health professionals. That was one of the key things that teenagers have been struggling with. And I suppose when we talk about teenagers, it's the time of their life when they're trying to stretch their wings. Try out being single and alone. And yeah, and having to do things on your own. And suddenly you find your, your parents and the friendship groups that you're trying to build have fallen away, because how many of them are really good at communicating with each other?
2
Speaker 2
2:57
Apart from the gamers, okay. Yeah, no, they're teenagers. Listen, we talked about this last week, it's the sense of belonging isn't it, and they're supposed to be breaking ties with their parent, they're annoying parents are which I am very much one. And they're supposed to be hanging out with their mates. And suddenly they couldn't do that. I mean, personally, I think it was probably the hardest for the teenagers, the younger kids seem to bounce back more easily. And I think also for us in our family. And I've heard other friends say there's there's an element of if you're an introvert or an extrovert, how you dealt with lockdown. And the introverts total generalization. I know. They need to recharge, they're happy not seeing people, you know, you doesn't mean you're shy. It just means your energy levels, you need to recharge when you've been with being sociable, you need to recharge. So we are three introverts in our house. So we were like, Oh, this is quite nice to go out and do stuff, although after a while you miss it. And I have an extrovert child, which doesn't mean he's crazy and wild, it means that he gets energy by socializing. So he found locked down really hard, and has been making up for it ever since.
1
Speaker 1
4:03
as have I. And I think that in itself is a very important point too, because Julie Hubbard, the professor of Psychological and Brain Sciences at the University of Delaware, stresses that it wasn't the same for all teenagers. In fact, it's a very, very difficult time for building relationships. And there are will have been teenagers who found it a massive relief not having to interact with other teenagers. The only problem with that is that they then lose out on building those skills of managing problems with friends, managing how you communicate in a different environment, how you build new friends, how you fix friendships, when things go wrong. And these are all skills that when I talk to parents of children who have grown up, they say actually, it really helps at work. It really helps in the boardroom, you know all the horrible things that happened where you feel terrible as a parent Aren't you like, Oh no, why is my child having these friendship problems? Well, when they're older, they draw on all those experiences to be better in their workplace. But if they're missing out on that, then that's going to be very difficult for them. And and the increase in anxiety, as a relate as a result of that is really problematic.
2
Speaker 2
5:20
Yeah, I think a lot of teenagers and I know statistically as well, it was when when we went out of lockdown, and back into normality in massive inverted commas. And that was when a lot of teenagers actually struggled the most, because of that they have done, you know, had the relief of not having to be put in difficult social situations or whatever their particular thing was. And then suddenly, they were confronted with it. And that was quite overwhelming for a lot of them. So yeah, and
1
Speaker 1
5:47
then also, different places in the world are coping differently. Some places, we're all coming out of it, all the restrictions are coming off, other places are still going back into it again. And if when your child suddenly tests positive COVID, and is forced to stay at home, if those relationships haven't developed yet, particularly those children who went into that first year when they just started senior school, and then suddenly, they've got to stay at home for a week, they come back to school, and all their relationships have changed. And it's traumatic is really, really difficult. And you made a point when we were chatting before about how boys, you know, it's kind of relates to football, or you know, what sports they're doing, and they just go back into the group. Whereas with girls, it can be much more tricky. Yes,
2
Speaker 2
6:33
I might have two boys and one girl and often and twins boy girl twins and sometimes, you know, if my daughter is having like, completely normal girl friendship things and is talking about, you know, this is going on this, this this, he just looks at her and like in disbelief and not judging, but just like, if she's tricky, or if she's annoying, why friends with her. Because it's like, when you're a girl, there is activity based their friendships or activity based, of course, they like each other. But girls is there are a whole different layers.
1
Speaker 1
7:08
And again, if they're not getting those activities, that's really problematic. So I think for all of us trying to manage it's it's the scaffolding around a teenager's life, and around everyone's lives, let's not, let's not pretend it's just teenagers who've suffered, we've all suffered. But I think for the teenagers, when they're trying to start moving on, they really need that scaffolding still in place. The education side is particularly interesting, because it has really, really enhanced inequalities. And it's very clear that that's the case. So you know, the children who've had access to online learning have had a much easier ride a bit in some respects and others, but even there, you know, my daughter's very academic. And she said, she's very upset and and stressed by the fact that even though she works extremely hard, she doesn't know whether people will even value the grades that she gets. Because of all the question marks over the grading structured everything Shifting Sands, the government's looking at it saying, Okay, we realize there was massive grade inflation, because the teachers were marking the kids work. So now where do we go? Do we do we actually drop all those grades back down again? Do we change the grading structure? And at the moment in the UK, they've decided to reduce the course load? Yeah. So that it's, it's, it's kind of on the the students who've missed out, but then there's a knock on impact. So if you're then intending to continue with that study, at a level or your your higher level of qualifications, that's going to cause some real problems.
2
Speaker 2
8:38
Is that with my with my eldest who started eight levels this year? And he, because obviously in COVID, and when it was all really tricky, and there was such unbelievable inequality with the with the teaching, then you had to do that, of course, no one would question that. Absolutely right thing to do the right thing was to make sure the kids were all right, mentally. But now there is a consequence in that I know in some of his subjects, and he's picked some quite hard subjects. Because the courses was bits were taken out of the courses, it means that there are topics that they haven't covered, and they're random. So not all kids have missed all the same. So it must be an absolute nightmare for the teachers. And an
1
Speaker 1
9:14
interesting study I saw said that mouth covering in schools has had a big impact as well. It's a man called Manfred Spitzer, who was pointing out that are it's blocking, it's blocking emotional signaling between teachers and pupils. And emotions play a very important role in our social interactions. And the problem is that the face masks a covering over the part of the face that showing exactly how you're feeling about somebody. Sue said all these signals are being missed. And teenagers are particularly receptive to the emotions in another person's face. That's really Yeah,
2
Speaker 2
9:51
I know I've taught in classes since since I've been wearing face masks when I teach mindfulness in schools and I have a whole class and It is quite weird. I mean, I'm not in there every day and all day. But I found I found personally that the kids who are maybe a little bit shy, and maybe don't speak that loudly, I couldn't really hear what they were saying, because clearly I sort of half lip read when they're talking and you can't. And so that's quite awkward for them. Yeah, interesting.
1
Speaker 1
10:22
So coming back to the long term impact, I think the loneliness and isolation and the relationship difficulties are one of the things that we can support our kids with. And I remember when I was at university, deciding in the end, towards the end of the second year, that I wasn't going to be able to do this. And I was very scared about taking my finals. And I went into one of my tutors and and impulsively said, so I've decided I'm going to take you out, because I really need to do some research, and then think about what I want to do after university. And I came up with this ridiculous idea. And he, you know, tried to cover his laughter, but he was, and he was polite about it. But he just basically said, that's a really, really terrible idea. And I said, why? And he said, because all the experience we have with students is that when you take timeout, and you move away from a social group that you're in, you don't come back and you don't succeed, you know, you won't come back to what it was because it's not the same as the social group that keeps you going. Interesting. And so I think the impact of COVID has been pulling people out of those social groups and networks. What's happened by actually having all this period of time when, you know, seemingly nothing was really happening there was sort of learning online, but they weren't. And I think it's actually, in a way made them think, Well, does it really matter? In every respect, because there's a question mark over grades, and there's a question mark over, you know, how their careers are going to pan out and what they're going to do after school. And, you know, all these people who stayed at home all the time, well, Where did that money go? Yeah, what's what's happened? And yeah, you know, does it? Does it make any difference?
2
Speaker 2
12:01
Yeah. So they kind of flit in and out of this big worry of what does it mean, this sort of accumulative effect of it and what's what's going on in the grades and careers and all of that? And then at the same time, they're also what's for lunch? You know, who's coming around later? And if that were, if that's working really well, then then I'm fine. Yeah. So it's a funny sort of ping pong between the two
1
Speaker 1
12:23
pleased to be which is the group, the charity that provides mental health support, had some great tips for how we can support our teenager, one of the ones was reminding your child about what they actually want to achieve, talk about the future talk about gaining skills and experience and things they're interested in, because that gives them a sense that there is a future and there are goals to be had, reminding them of how valued they are, irrespective of what the grading systems are in schools, because again, it's a shifting sand, and it must be making them feel a bit destabilized. It has been really hard for a lot of us not seeing our loved ones are seeing our friends. So we've they're keen to see them, just finding ways that they can and, and finding ways that are supportive of them seeing friends, which aren't too challenging for the ones who have found their relationships with the other kids. That's cool, very difficult. One of the other things they mentioned was the way that we respond to the problem. And it reminded me of the most amazing piece I did for World Service radio, where I was presenting a British news program. And we had a report from Northern Ireland and the Troubles in Northern Ireland. And they were parents who were having to take their children across lines from a Catholic area, for example, into a Protestant diarrhea, or vice versa. And in doing so they then had to run the gauntlet of people who were standing outside the school shouting obscenities at these poor families, which is bizarre, bizarre when you think about it, but it was happening. And in doing so, we spoke to a psychologist about how those children would be affected long term by this experience. And the psychologist said, if the parent, whether it's a mother or father walked down that line, and seemed that they were coping that they were not necessarily on troubled, but they could they could do it and it wasn't a big thing. The child would be fine. It was when parents fell apart that it became a real scarring, experience. And I think we can take from that. What pleased to be a saying is we just need to try even when it's feels like everything's falling apart from us, the more we can protect our teenagers and say, you know, it's fine. It's going to be fine, then I think that they will take their cue from us because we've got the experience out in the big world and they will think okay, I can do this. It's
2
Speaker 2
14:48
really interesting. I think that's a really good illustration That's horrific stories. But it's so hard isn't it because you know everyone experienced COVID In such a different way and and you also need to be authentic with Your kids, especially the teenagers, because they pick up on everything. So you know, on the one side, if you go, Oh, everything's fine. And they're like, Yeah, but you're giving me the signal that everything's really not fine. You also kind of, I guess, need to be authentic in it and explain that there is some stuff going on. But but you know, the message that the tone we set with our kids in whatever we do, is really important. And that's our responsibility.
1
Speaker 1
15:24
We used to do this and parent in parenting is about finding that balance, when they turn into a teenager, there's a blurred line, and you can start to be more of a friend, but you're not a friend. And as a parent, the onus is on you not to divulge all the problems not to talk, they don't need to know some of the things you're struggling with. You can tell them I'm having a difficult time. But they don't need to know all the details
2
Speaker 2
15:48
of authenticity can can be Yeah, I'm having a really tough time I'm on it, I've got it sorted. I'm having help I need to or whatever it is. I will be okay. And maybe not okay, today, but I will be okay. And, and but explaining that actually what you're picking up on is is also real
1
Speaker 1
16:06
is real. Exactly. And then they know that. Okay, we're not hiding that there's some sort of weird, bogeyman in the cupboard that we don't understand. Yes, absolutely. The final thing was really, the place to be was saying was is really important to try and find time to just touch base with your teenager, check in with them when you're together and make space for them to talk about how they're feeling about things. Just make it into a habit. Because as long as they feel that it's okay to talk, when they have are having a problem. You don't have to do it regularly. You don't have to, like, okay, it's five o'clock on a Saturday night, we're going to have this conversation. They wouldn't be there if you do that they weren't exactly. And then when they do tell you something, validate it don't go to be stupid, or, you know, we have to actually say, okay, I can see that that would be really difficult. And, you know, sometimes they don't need more than that. They just want you to listen. How have your teens been affected by COVID? And all of this stop starting? We'd love to hear from you message us on help at teenagers untangle.com. And now for our question, which comes from Simon who says sleep seems to have become a big issue in our house, should I let my teenager sleeping at the weekend or keep them to a regular shedule both the National Sleep Foundation and the American Academy of Sleep Medicine agree that teens need between eight and 10 hours of sleep per night. And surveys indicate that many parents don't realize their children are having sleep problems. Parents I speak to. Yeah, like I'd like enough sleep. Yeah, exactly. What about me?
17:36
I think sleep is like a national thing that we're already good at.
1
Speaker 1
17:39
Yeah, I think that's right. He just sleeps for wimps. Yeah, obviously, when
2
Speaker 2
17:44
you die. Oh, yeah, there's still that people still believe that will crawl through the day and,
1
Speaker 1
17:49
and yet, I saw a really good piece. And I've completely forgotten who it was. Where he said, If you could take a pill, and it would make you perform better academically, it would give you way more energy, it would make you far more emotionally stable and far more fun. And you wouldn't overeat. Would you take the pill? And everyone goes, yeah, and he said, That's what sleep does. And there are no side effects.
2
Speaker 2
18:16
Wow, amazing. So how can we are so rubbish in myself included organising that, but for teenagers, the question being should they sleep in the weekend? I mean, I for all of this, I'm just saying my experience. Yeah.
18:33
teaches everyone I mentioned it to wish Yeah, yeah.
2
Speaker 2
18:35
Cool. Like, I think, you know, it's still historically you know, we, when we were teenagers, which was a long time, you know, try and get the teenagers up and it was seen as a bad thing to let your teen sleep in. And and I think we know for sure now that that's known rubbish. They need to sleep long and their circadian rhythm changes and all of that. But it's quite hard to manage. I mean, my especially with, you know, the gaming and stuff and they may be sleeping all weekend, and then they're not tired Sunday night. And then like,
1
Speaker 1
19:05
No, that's a very important point, because I used to present as I was a World News Anchor per CNBC, and my ship started at three o'clock in the morning, lucky me. And that was really hard, because it was five days a week, and then I'd get to Friday exhausted, but that would be my night to go out. So you know, I just carry on and then I'd feel really like I was spaced out all weekend, but I just keep going because this was my weekend and my one time to have fun. And then come Sunday, I couldn't sleep. And I but I would there was also the excitement and anxiety that I had to perform the next day. So you get this building pressure. And I'm sure a lot of teenagers will feel like this, that this there's this you're sort of a bit zombie weird, overexcited at the weekend, or you're sleeping in and then you're kind of Crossing time zones all the time. Yeah. which is very difficult. But is there a right right answer? Not really.
2
Speaker 2
20:04
I don't know. I mean, kids are different as well, aren't they? I mean, and and the weekdays, then it's not expecting that they're going to be fed because they're groggy.
1
Speaker 1
20:14
The important thing we should mention is that in all the research, it says that the melatonin in a teenager slips, so when it kicks in, is later than when they're a young child or as an adult. And it then stays in place longer in the morning. So when your teenagers is expected to get up and go to school early, don't be surprised if they are very annoyed about it, or just not really capable to make sense.
2
Speaker 2
20:43
If there's a clock in the morning to them. As to way too early. There is a country and I'm not sure if it's Sweden, it could be where they have done studies where they stopped. Teenagers coming in school, they start at 10 o'clock in the morning, and everything is much better. Obviously, the team,
21:00
they're going to start at 10 in the morning to
2
Speaker 2
21:03
good. But obviously, you know, the structure of society means that that's really, really difficult to manage.
1
Speaker 1
21:09
Yes. I remember my stepdaughters. At that time, we used to get the mobile phone bills, and they would list every single text. I'd look at this bill that was, I don't know, 2030 pages long with text messages all the way through the night, you know, two, three in the morning. And whenever they'd come to stay, they would be sleeping until one in the afternoon or the weekend. And my other kids would go when are they getting? Teenagers are teenagers are teenagers. But it was not surprising because they had been up all night texting. I think that's actually one of those ones where we get these little blind spots. So one of my friends said her teenage daughter was struggling with sleep. And I said, Oh, you know, what's going on? how's this working? And she said, You know, it's the texting and the messaging. And I said, Well, so what I found is you take the phone away, and you put it downstairs. So my kids, it basically 930 devices downstairs, thank you. And they can be on charge. You can do other things. I don't care. But you need to be going into your sleep routine. And she said, Yeah, but she uses it has her alarm clock. I said, you can buy cheap alarm clock. She doesn't need to use a phone. And it was just one of those situations where she went Oh, yeah, of course, what would be really helpful for us is to every now and then audit are teenagers set up with them to say, shall we just have a chat? How is this working out for you? You know, if they're struggling to get up in the morning, if they are sleeping in very late at the weekends, maybe have a look at how it's all set up and discuss it with them and say there is a problem here. Can we adjust things slightly?
2
Speaker 2
22:45
Yeah, I mean, I've kind of tried that. And persistent showing. My twins, they do not have their phones at night, they would like to have, especially one of them. And it's because it's exciting. It's fun, it's banter. It's like and you can hear it pinging. And it's not in his room.
1
Speaker 1
23:03
And it's the one time when there aren't adults around. Right,
2
Speaker 2
23:07
fine. And you know, phones have obviously designed to keep them keep them pinging. But there are you know, there are and I have this conversation where elders there are three variables. I always think that, you know, teenagers and adults and myself included. There's like the basics. It's sleep, nutrition and exercise. And they're really simple to sort their fundamental, and we're really bad at them. Absolutely, it's a big one. So we have these discussions and, you know, slow changes, my eldest is getting better at it, but it's been a long struggle.
1
Speaker 1
23:39
And it's actually really, really important and without wanting to over stress it prolong sleep loss is connected to mental health disorders like anxiety, depression, bipolar disorder, suicide, even weight, and diabetes. So I heard on the radio just the other day, a scientist saying we're starting to wonder whether the big increase in obesity in teenagers could be linked to lack of sleep, and whether that's true or not, who knows. But he said, there's a tendency when you're tired to eat another 250 calories on average, and usually they're not good calories. They're in front
24:17
of you. Exactly. Sweet.
1
Speaker 1
24:18
So what's what can I eat now that will keep me awake? Because you know, going to bed is not an option. So this is the problem with that. And then also the risk taking increases. They found TJ teenagers and far more likely to engage in drug use alcohol use smoking risky sexual behavior, if they're tired.
2
Speaker 2
24:35
Yes, I mean, sleep is crucial. And I've totally put my hand up for I'm terrible at it. You know, I just do things a bit too late and then go to bed a little bit too late. And it's just so annoying that because of the melatonin and the change in that, that they often do wake up at about 11pm And then when they come in and go it's particularly my eldest because yeah, yeah, I don't think the younger ones is kicked in as much. Yeah, well let's Cook lets you know fine.
1
Speaker 1
25:02
Yeah. And that's a special time together. Yes. Which
2
Speaker 2
25:05
then means I'm knackered the next day, but you know, that's I judge that to be totally worth it. And also with sleep, I think we get used to feeling sleep deprived, I think that can be really and I think teenagers do as well I know that mine have, you know, they get, it's like when you have newborns isn't it and I had twins and a tiny toddler as well. So I had a long time of just living in a fog. And you get used to it. And I'm sure that my teens, you know, they have a lot of late nights and and they they you can't remember what it's like to not feel tired. It's just becomes normal. Yes, things
1
Speaker 1
25:39
to talk to your teenager about budgeting eight hours of sleep into a weak day shedule. My daughter said, How on earth am I supposed to do that? Because she's working really, really hard. So when you've got a highly ambitious, very driven teen who goes into school, or they come home, and they're working till quite late, and she always says to me, you know, I get really interested at 10 o'clock at night. And I said, Well, I guess just go with it. Yeah, you know, sleep, can you sleep when you get home? Yeah, no, she's not creating a consistent bedtime routine to help with relaxation and falling sleep. So literally, you can say, Okay, we need to have that bedtime routine kick in at this time. And here's what you can do to create a good routine. So a cool room, the stuff can't be in it, your work and your your devices and everything they need to come out of the room. Because otherwise you see your room as something other than some way where you sleep. Having a shower, before you go to bed is a fantastic thing because it raises your temperature and then your temperature drops. And then you're more likely to fall asleep. Because yes, that's absolutely the case. Avoiding the obvious caffeine and energy drinks, which you know, I like a hot chocolate but caffeine in it. But you know, I'm sure that's not helping me. mattresses, pillows, are they good? You know, has your child got a pillow that they feel comfortable, just little things like that. But it's worth going through all of those things.
2
Speaker 2
27:03
And mindfulness as well. I mean, I might wide also had, she had quite a long time where she struggled to fall asleep. And then it became you know, thing that she thought about I can't fall asleep. And, and she had and I would guide her through various things, which was helpful, or the other boys as well, if they had stressful things the next day, you know, like a body scan with them. And it always really, really helped. But then there's so many CDs out there not CDs that's showing my age, so many things you can find online, downloading mindfulness, bedtime things, there are millions out there on you know, everywhere, and they're really good. She had some particularly ones that they were really, really helpful. So that's definitely
1
Speaker 1
27:42
selling cognitive behavioral therapy a bit. It's getting too much. No problems are
2
Speaker 2
27:46
often thoughts at bedtime. And that's what I teach kids. When I'm teaching mindfulness, it's the thoughts that are keeping you up. It's so we want to get out of our heads, busy heads, because suddenly your head gets busy at night, because it's quiet. Your mind goes, Oh, look, all these things you need to remember and worry about. I really fun to into your body. So using your breath and using meditation skills can be really, really helpful, even if it's just for a few minutes.
1
Speaker 1
28:11
And I read a fantastic piece, where the guy said what you have to do is very often it's exactly that you lie down, and you start worrying about all of the things. And he said, so one of the great things to do is you need to set aside half an hour to worry. Or 10 minutes to worry or something. Piece of paper. Worry. You've got to worry, right? Yeah, but then you're not allowed to worry after that. Okay? You mean to just not getting enough time during the day to do those things. So actually giving yourself the chance to do them can help. But I love your body scan thing. What a wonderful thing because
2
Speaker 2
28:45
worrying like I just sitting here thinking that sounds great, but my mind might not listen to that. It might go Yeah, I know. I'm worried earlier, but here it is, again.
28:56
Just did I write it down?
29:00
Do that one more time. So you want to get out of your body? Just for the Hard of Hearing the back the worries come back.
1
Speaker 1
29:11
How do you regulate sleep in your family? Do you have any great tips for us? We as you can hear we would love to hear your tips. And you can find us on Facebook, Instagram and you can email us at help at teenagers untangled.com. In our next episode, we take a look at sibling rivalry. Is it inevitable? Is it a bad thing? Or can you turn it into something positive? And this time we're going to tackle a question from mums net user Mrs. Denzel. My 13 year old daughter is an absolute nightmare at home yet school give her a glowing report. I've heard that one before. I've recently found out she's been vaping she was grounded but I'm sure she's still doing it. Now. It's escalated to the point of swearing. I'm at my end of my tether I feel physically and mentally unwell. It's an interesting one too. So That's it for now. In the meantime, if you'd like to learn more about mindfulness, both one to ones or courses, or A scanning technique, you can find Susie on Instagram and her details are on Susie as the mindfulness.co.uk and you've made it to the end of teenagers untangle well done have a sticker from cesium me. Thanks for being here. Goodbye. Goodbye.
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