33: Andrew Tate, role models, misogyny, red pills, and the manosphere.

Rachel Richards: 0:02

Hello, I'm Rachel Richards and welcome to teenagers untangle the audio hug where we use research by experts and our own experience to discuss everything and anything to do with parenting teenagers.

Susie Asli: 0:14

Hi there, I'm Susie Asli. Mindfulness coach, mindful therapists and musician and mother of three teenagers two of them are twin.

Rachel Richards: 0:23

As a parenting coach and mother of two teenagers and two stepdaughters. I've seen the transformative power of getting people together to share ideas and support each other. So here we are, welcome, pull up a chair. And let's begin. Now, Susie, we are going to talk about a really controversial topic which I have been desperate not to go to for quite some time. But the time has arrived, because we have been contacted by a listener who said Please, please, please, can you talk about Andrew Tate, I have three sons. And two of them seem to be quite enamored with him. And I'm not sure how I deal with this as a parent. So we will talk about him. But let's do something positive first, and we'll talk about our nuggets. So Suzy, what have you been? What have you learned this week?

Susie Asli: 1:06

Well, I've been circling around that old favorite that we've talked about before the quotes parenting teenagers is becomes like a part time job, but full time availability. And that just seems to be coming up this, this couple of weeks of, you know, you're not needed as much physically like when they're little and you have to be there, you know, all the time helping them doing all the different things. When the teenagers they disappear off to their rooms, or they're out with mates. But when they need you, they need you. So the full time availability. And of course, that's not necessary or always practical, you need to be always available, of course not sure. And they're capable of you not jumping at everything they do. But the idea when they need help with work, or they need help with an issue that that you're available, or they can't sleep or you know that just little things that you can just be there. So my daughter needed help going to sleep the other night. needed help with physio, they've got a French test, can you test me on that mum? Can you? You know, do you want to make cookies and just things like that little tiny things. And I was just thinking over the last couple of weeks, they really add up. And I'm not always there, of course, I go out and do other things, that's also good for them. But that you are available,

Rachel Richards: 2:27

that you're their greatest ally, that they need a bit of support, they can just come to you. And it doesn't necessarily have to

Susie Asli: 2:32

be a big thing. No, can be five minutes. And then they gotta love that. Yeah,

Rachel Richards: 2:35

we talked in the last episode about consequences. And a mother contacted me about her daughter, who keeps nagging her to the point that she'll finally the daughter will finally hit the mother. And if so, for example, I want some chocolate buttons. And the mother says no. And then the daughter keeps saying all evening, I want I want a one on one. And so the mother said, What do I do about this? And I said, well, so let's go back to the principles that we discussed in that podcast. And the the principles are, if you're going to put in place a consequence, it needs to be short, it needs to be something that they care about. And that's relevant. They need you need to be clear about the behavior that has to change. And they also need to know how they can earn it back. So in this example, I said, what you need to do is you need to say to her right, sweetie, you can't keep asking me for something when I said no, you know, I've given you a reason. And you know is are you not accepting? Do you think that's that reasons aren't unreasonable. So you can be open to dialogue if you think it's an important issue. And then you say, right, I'm going to take away and in this example, it was her phone because she's obsessed with her phone for an hour doesn't need to be longer than that an hour. And then you can have a think about whether you want to keep nagging me. And it's a bad habit you've got into you're not a bad person. It's just a bad habit. And then the mother said, Well, what about if she then nags me? What do I do? And I said, Okay, so if during that hour she nags you, you then say, Oh, sweetie, you're finding this really hard, aren't you? And it is difficult to change a bad habit. So let's start the clock again. So we're gonna do another hour, is there anything else that we can do to remind you not to behave like that? And it's just about breaking a cycle of habit that's formed, that needs to be addressed. And as soon as the hours are up, you can give it back to her. If she then does it again. You just revert revert back to it. So don't think Oh, it doesn't work. Just think it takes time to change bad habits.

Susie Asli: 4:29

Interesting. Yeah. I'm just thinking in my house. They just take the chocolate buttons. Yeah, that's a whole different

Rachel Richards: 4:38

story. Yeah, no, no, I think mine would you know, when it comes to treats like that, they would discuss it with me. Yeah, yeah, I need to change that. Yeah. I remember as a teenager going around to someone else's house and she said you want a biscuit and I just said, What are you allowed to have? Just? Yeah, why not? Like, oh,

Susie Asli: 4:58

I have to put them in a diff Front cupboard. My daughter otherwise the boys just Scott's got a

Rachel Richards: 5:03

lock. Yeah, yeah, inhale them. I've seen parents who basically have, you know, here are your snacks. Yeah. Once they're gone, they're gone. Yeah. And these are my snacks. And here's a padlock. So right let's back to this subject. That's pretty tricky. I, in researching it, I actually went down what people was called rabbit hole, because I was trying to get my head round. Who this? What kind of language he was using? That was so attractive. Yeah. And what why was he becoming so infamous. And there were a few words that were coming up all the time, like the matrix. So that took me off a little wander around the internet. And I discovered there's a woman called Laura Bates, who's an author, and she's based in the UK, she's spent most of the last decade educating schoolchildren about sexism. And she says, in the last few years, she's noticed an increasing sense of hostility, aggression and anger in boys attitudes towards women. And she was trying to put her finger on what was happening. And she said, she'll be she'll be in a meeting with these boys, and suddenly they interrupt her. And they will start trotting out false statistics about rape and claiming men are more likely to be victims of domestic violence and incorrect stats about gender pay gaps. And they were arriving with this information, you know, it's written down. And she said, She then said, Well, where are you? Where are you getting this information? And they'd say, online. And what she then started discovering was that there's a community online. I mean, it's not just her discovering it is it's the truth is there's a community online, that These boys are accessing. And it's not just Andrew Tate. He's just one of the many people who are in this. And she said, The worry is that you've got neutral boys who go out looking and they end up in this area now. So what, what are we talking about? What area are we talking about? It's called the manosphere. It's been dubbed that. And it's a network of online men's communities that oppose women's empowerment and support sexist and anti feminist ideologies. So that March, that sounds like quite a sort of little corner of the internet. Not so it's not, it's not it's actually changing. And there are reasons why it's changing. They attribute all kinds of social issues to feminists and women, and many of them support hostility. So here are the four main categories. There's MRA men's rights advocates, and they're pushing for political reforms that will benefit men and you know, making fun harassing feminists, other female public figures MGT O W, some men going their own way claims that because women, such boys and men should entirely disregard them. They may date women, but they'd never go into anything serious. And in fact, some of them say, right, I'm, you know, I'm not even going to be friends with women. Wow. Pickup artists or pu A's. And these instruct men in seduction techniques, so they can better attract women. And the the methods frequently entail treating women unfairly insulting them, disobeying their consent, all those sorts of things. And actually, you know, Andrew Tate, sort of, he's in these, you know, because he's known to abuse the Loverboy method, where you're, you're basically you use them as an instrument of what you want, right? And then in sales, or involuntary, celibate, and they feel they're entitled to a relationship with a woman, but they weren't able to do it. So and this is a shortened phrase, and it comes from it was actually created by a woman, ironically, called Alana in the late 90s. And she was in her mid 20s, had just begun dating and started a website for lonely people who were well into adulthood and seemed unable to find love or sexual partners. And it was supposed to be a positive space. She eventually left it and it was then taken over by men, right? Yes. And in these communities. You know, these men say they're denied sexual and romantic partners by society, women are to blame. And you could say, well, this is you know, these poor men, but actually, it's, it's become so problematic that there has been violence towards women and deaths. As a result, it's really so it's really, really predatory. So and if you think about it, you've got a lonely young man, whatever age he is, and he thinks, Oh, I'd like to get a girlfriend and men like that say, Well, you can't get a girlfriend because all the girls have become feminist, and they're all left wing, and they're not interested in you. That's gonna make you quite upset and angry. Right? Yeah. So, so this is the manosphere. So I've laid out what we're talking about, and you can spot manosphere language. And the reason I'm bringing this up is because I chatted with one of my daughters last night because I thought, let's test this. And I mentioned some of the words. And because I mentioned the manosphere she said, I don't know what you're talking About and then I mentioned some of the ways you will Oh yeah, all the boys are using those words.

Susie Asli: 10:03

Yeah, I'm gonna go home and and ask mine because we've always spoke about it in preparation for talking about it here. And they were really, you know, not interested in Undertaker he was hideous and awful. But I'm going to test with the language and see how yes how

Rachel Richards: 10:15

prevalent it is. So for example, quite a bit of it comes from the matrix, the film. And Andrew Tate kept mentioning the matrix and Okay, he's still does it and I was thinking, what is what is that? So what is it little dog whistle for the manosphere? So it's your other conspiracy stuff? Correct? Correct. And this has exploded as a result of COVID. And all sorts of so there's the red pill and the red pillars do basically they believe the world is unfair and stacked against men in favor of women. And that the overweight, the only way of overcoming this is by becoming an alpha male or going to the gym and treating women poorly, you're awake, you're awake to what society has been trying to force on you. And you do things differently, because you've taken the red pill, and this comes from that film. Yeah. blue pill is a state of blissful ignorance brought on by refusing to take the red pill. So you've said I don't actually want to be aware, I'm going to stick within society. And you know, I'm not going to accept that the truth, right. And then there's actually a black pill. And they argued that men are systematically oppressed but think that the only solution to overcome this will be drastic to change of society. And using violent male means, so that's really pretty like the far end of it. So other words, terms, I'll use alpha male or Chad. And Chad is an appealing successful man wanted by a woman, basically, you know, he's in their opinion, in their opinion, beta male, a typical man who has not taken the red pill and is inferior to the alpha male, feminine or for you it is a term for female humanoid, primarily used by in cells, and dinos centrism, which is a belief that women control and rural society I sort of studied, looked into that a bit more. And actually, it's this idea that women will only choose up and across in terms of status. So men necessarily then have to either be one of the top men, or they have to trade down. And I don't know how they're actually assessing who's whose job it is. Yes, it's very, it's a very tight Yes. It's, it's scary, because it's so dehumanizing. Yeah, massively. And the reason, so why is this become more prevalent? Yeah.

Susie Asli: 12:27

And I think that's the interesting point. And you you brought that up, because he's, I mean, I'd looked at, I've looked at him on I know, we've all seen him online. He's really engaging, and he all his motivational stuff is really motivational. You know, you can't really argue with it. But it's all the other all the other awful toxic stuff that goes with it. That's the problem. But kids are kids, they're going to be attracted by the motivational stuff.

Rachel Richards: 12:49

And that's absolutely right. It is motivational, a lot of what he says, is very exciting for boys who are young, or men who are young, who want to feel, you know, that burst of energy about getting things done, and being successful. And it's interesting, because what's happened? Is that it because because then you say, Well, why, yes, he's successful, but why so successful? Why is he getting so many followers? And that's to do with algorithms?

Susie Asli: 13:16

Yeah. And he's also appealing to the vulnerability in these young men, these young boys, you know, ones who maybe feel that things are difficult, or they're not, you know, they're not doing what they want to do. And, you know, normal, normal, young male thinking, you know, who am I? What's my identity? What, what do I want to do? And you know, life can be difficult. He's offering an easy fix, isn't he? You can have this you don't have to do much. You just have to have to, you know, follow me and do what I say and not have any empathy or compassion to anyone and and go at it and be violent in the process. It says hideous,

Rachel Richards: 13:49

yes. And it's wonderful to have a strong man, if you're looking around you and everybody around you seems to be overweight and tired. And, you know, having somebody who's who looks fit, yeah. And who's flying around in private jets and carrying guns and saying I can do what I want. Yeah.

Susie Asli: 14:06

So it is interesting, though, because there are lots of motivational speakers out there some really amazing ones. And they are not picking up the same interest as him.

Rachel Richards: 14:14

And that's where we come to the algorithm. So ISD is an organization that claims to be powering solutions to extremism, hate and information disinformation. Their Head of Communications and editorial team squirrel points out that when it comes to Tate's ideology, there's a mix of red pill culture, which I've mentioned, hustle culture. And it's kind of a resurgence of early 2010s, men's rights activist culture. But and the reason I mentioned algorithms is that they're critically important. So what happens is that you mentioned boys going out looking for answers, which is 100%. What we as teenagers all do, yeah, everybody's trying to find their identity. They're trying to figure out what their place in the world. How does this work? You know, I want a girlfriend, how do I get one? What is What do I do. And the algorithms you just watch one or something can result in a lot of other things being served up of that same thing. So YouTube shorts uses quite a lot of red pill content, to follow on from things that have happened for now. He's been banned from a lot of these platforms. He's only on Twitter. But his followers, he's encouraged his incited his followers to put things up, that will then follow on when someone searches for this information. So let's say a boy goes on and searches for, you know, how do I get a girl? Or how do I get strong or whatever, very quickly, they will find themselves being pushed information.

Susie Asli: 15:46

And he puts he pushes the really controversial stuff that he says and that gets spammed about and that gets more interest because people are attracted to that. And so it goes,

Rachel Richards: 15:56

yes. So what separates for example, Tik Tok from other platforms is how aggressively the algorithm optimizes and the volume of people uploading similar kinds of content. And YouTube shorts has tried to mimic that. And Tate specifically encouraged his audience to upload videos of him resulting in, you know, his content, flooding the platform. And he was encouraging them to post the most controversial stuff, so that it will provoke arguments. And once you provoked an argument, you get more engagement. And then that it's caught, you know, it's clickbait, it's standard outrage, bate,

Susie Asli: 16:31

and the platform's are not doing anything, then they're not willing to be accountable, because it's very attention to them. It's really, really bad.

Rachel Richards: 16:39

Absolutely, but he is not alone phenomenon, he is actually part of this whole problem. And, you know, YouTube influencers are able to reach people by using clever key words and techniques. So that I think one of the messages here is that, you know, we need to understand how these algorithms and the messages that people are using light hate are being abused to to lure in our teenagers, and that they are being manipulated by this.

Susie Asli: 17:09

But you know, it's very makes makes them and us very powerless.

Rachel Richards: 17:13

Really. Yeah, yeah. And it's no accident that this is the same audience, these young men, it's the same audience of far right groups, and ultra nationalist target. This one Bates who was doing this research, he says that extremist groups are actually targeting boys at younger ages. She's read manifestos from leaders of those communities, trying to target boys who return 11. Because that they're trying to figure out the world and you can start early, you can really, you can embed your philosophy in their brains, and it's very hard to reach.

Susie Asli: 17:47

Yeah. And and we all love a scapegoat, don't we, you know, all the bigoted ideas, you know, we love a scapegoat. If it's women, if it's race, if it's religion, you know, or let's blame it on them. And, you know, there's a reason for, for why something isn't easy for me. So

Rachel Richards: 18:03

we all do, we absolutely, I'm guilty myself, too. And it's quite a subtle process that these recruiters use, and one of the hunting grounds they use is multiplayer online games. Because what they'll do is they'll go into the multiplayer game, they'll drop some, you know, slightly incendiary content, see whether it lands, and then they move them on to chat rooms where they're talking about gameplay, but actually, they're they're trying to groom them into these communities. So this is far right,

Susie Asli: 18:32

because they're already boys, again, they already have their adrenaline pumped to sing in the middle of this war. So it fits in really beautifully there. Yes,

Rachel Richards: 18:42

absolutely fits the images, doesn't it? And yet, she says if the far right, were infiltrating our schools, you know, Salafi jihadists with these sorts of narratives, they'd be shut down. They'd be much more outrage, wouldn't there? So, you mentioned that a lot of what he's saying also, a lot of the messages that the boys are reading a very motivational, I agree, I decided to go into his war rooms, which is on his website, and I read his well I read his tenants he's got I think he's got a 41 tenants. And, and it's, it's hilarious, because they are they're actually really good things. But they don't go along with a lot of this other stuff he does or set. Right this is a problem. There's dissonance there it completely. And the problem is, is an 1112 1314 year old boy going to see that

Susie Asli: 19:32

no, and we you know, he went on his Twitter feed. I was looking at that this morning. He's you know, he's using Nelson Mandela quote, which is just how dare he How dare he? Yes. But

Rachel Richards: 19:44

you know, he's trying to align himself with these things.

Susie Asli: 19:46

Good. You know it just and young boys will be like, Oh, wow, he is using that then he must be okay.

Rachel Richards: 19:52

Yes. And the visuals for example, on demand, right? Um, I haven't seen the hustlers stuff he's got but the visuals. He'll go he'll say International and Then he'll show him him in a private jet. And then he'll show a lot of watches. And then he'll show him holding guns. And then him saying I have a right to be with my fellow men and all these pictures is a caricature. It's almost funny. Yes, because when you look at this, but what he's actually displaying, is precisely what a 14 year old boy is going to think, is successful. Yes, success, why wouldn't you? Yeah, but he's

Susie Asli: 20:23

giving a really false image of masculinity. Because, you know, we've spent many years trying to teach boys, that being masculine doesn't mean you have to be like that. You can also, you know, you embody the feminine the can also and it's really important that you're able to be soft and empathetic and compassionate and can talk about things and he's this just kind of got rid of all of that. So it's almost like we've gone completely backwards,

Rachel Richards: 20:51

it's Yes, and I get it, I get the message he's handing out because there's this sense that, you know, it's his, his world that he's creating, that he's he's selling is Doggy Dog, you either winning or you're not. And I remember it being quite a bit like that, when my career started and feeling like, you know, you either we're gonna beat the other people in your teams, or whatever. And we were put into teams to try and control that. But at the same time, you knew that you had to be on top. And it was only as I grew up as a as an into an adult and a working adult that I realized how incredibly powerful it is when you form allies.

Susie Asli: 21:29

Yes, I will. It's the it's the whole abundance scarcity mindset. So scarcity mindset is there's not enough to go around and we were fighting each other for the scraps, you know, there's not enough so it's dog eat dog. And I have to be better than you otherwise I lose abundance mindset is there is more than enough to go around. And if we help each other, if we lift each other up, there is more for everybody. And it's, it's it's yeah, it's very,

Rachel Richards: 21:53

that's a really good way of summarizing what we need to be saying to our kids absolutely about the difference between the way he's portraying the world. And the way in general, it genuinely can be. And unfortunately,

Susie Asli: 22:06

our culture is very in a capitalist society is scarcity, mindsets, it's all built around that. And if we can teach them abundance, the world would look very different in everything.

Rachel Richards: 22:17

Yes, yes. And he's using his platform to promote hustlers University, which is a quick how to get rich and the digital age lessons ranging from copywriting to crypto investing, and so he's, you know, charging people for this. He's making money, guys. So he's, he's trying to pull in as many people as possible be as controversial as possible, because the more people are talking about him, the more money you'll make, because exactly,

Susie Asli: 22:38

it's a scam. Yeah. But he kind of seems to believe it.

Rachel Richards: 22:41

Yes. So, you know, a lot of it. I've said to my husband, what do you think of Andrew Taylor, he just said, Who? So he's just not done. And he literally thinks he's total loser, when I mentioned who he was and said, I really don't want to even know about it. And my husbands are powerful, alpha male. Yeah, he just says, those those that kind of sounds like somebody who's a bit of a loser, trying to you know, the the really strong guys could admit their failings. They can accept when they'd get things wrong, talk about it. And this is not the sort of person I'd spend any time with.

Susie Asli: 23:14

That's because he's incorporating them feminine into the masculine wrecked it correct.

Rachel Richards: 23:19

And it's possible, I haven't really good, really healthy. And the problem is that their version of How to Be a man in this dog eat dog world, is I'm gonna just do one quote of his to give to give people who may not know who he is a sense, one of his quotes was, she's my property. So if she's selling herself, she's selling my property, like, we're going to rent my house and I get the money, right? You're my chick, you're my property. You're going to sell pictures of my property. Cool. Where's my money? Yeah. But that's his mindset that he's, you know, a woman is his property. Yes.

Susie Asli: 23:54

Yeah, my my I asked my kids, you're talking about your husband his reaction. So I have an almost 18 year old however, that's happened. I'm not sure. But that's when you didn't have nearly nearly Yeah. And he had he had he was very opinionated about Andrew Tate. And I can't really repeat what he said on this podcast. But he thinks he's an absolute loser and an Indian. He said, Actually, anyone who's actually had a conversation with an actual woman would realize what an idiot he is. My younger boy and he had a mate in the car, and I asked so they sort of squirmed as I asked, and he was like Mom Stop. They obviously knew who he was. They didn't have many opinions, but we're in agreement that he was he was a total loser and an idiot. But yeah, it wasn't a very in depth conversation. But the the general was that no, we think he's an idiot. He's horrible. I didn't know much about him, the better.

Rachel Richards: 24:58

I mean, my daughter's know a lot about out, because they are so incensed. Yeah. What we don't want to do is draw battle lines, no link, because and what's interesting is that a lot of girls don't really go for that. No, a lot of girls do. Yeah, but a lot of girls don't. And the problem with, you know, the in cell culture is they feel like, you know, I've got nothing to trade online, I haven't got a, you know, a college degree from the top university. I haven't got lots of money. I don't look like these guys, how am I supposed to track to go? Maybe meet somebody real life? Actually. They're perfectly pleasant.

Susie Asli: 25:36

And how do we how do we approach it with our boys? Which is what the question was wasn't and I think that's really, really key that we can break it down into, you know, what's the good in his saying, which is all the motivational stuff, which is actually quite good. But maybe we can find that elsewhere? And then what's the bad stuff? Like what's, what do you think is masculine? You know, what, what do you think is a good way to be a man in the world? What What are your values in that? And do they match this? Or not? So

Rachel Richards: 26:08

I love that. And I think that's absolutely spot on. And what we, what we have to do is we have to avoid silence in boys are silences their oxygen, yes, these these. So we have to be prepared, though, to hear stuff that we may not yet to hear. So actually, when we say what do you think, like you said, we can't say when they tell us something that's uncomfortable, or we disagree with? Well, that's not appropriate, or you shouldn't you can say, are you aware that that's considered to be misogynistic? Yeah. How do you feel about that you need to we need to be, give them a space to think their thoughts through and be able to discuss them without us telling them they're bad or

Susie Asli: 26:53

they're wrong. Because that just shuts down the conversation, like we've talked about many times, or telling them they're wrong or saying, you know, you mustn't follow this guy, or he's bad. They just do it when you're not looking.

Rachel Richards: 27:03

Yes. And will absolutely but also, okay, what is it about those messages that's so appealing? Because like we said, I totally get it. I read some of the things he says, yes, yes, yes, I'm gonna get up today, and I am going to do work and these people are lazing around. Yeah. But he's also a denier of depression as a denier of all sorts of things that

Susie Asli: 27:23

we know social anxiety doesn't exist in his opinion. Yeah. So

Rachel Richards: 27:26

so he's just saying you're weak. If you if you have any issues, you're weak.

Susie Asli: 27:31

But follow me when we can suggest some some good motivational speakers that they can get that that inspiration from in a in a healthy, positive way, rather than with all the gunk that he offers with it,

Rachel Richards: 27:41

and talk about what because what's what's really appealing to boys? I don't think a lot of them are actually looking at Oh, yeah, I want to beat women up to have them as slaves or any I don't think that's what's attracting them. I think what's attracting them is his lifestyle, his emphasis on physical fitness, and you know, being strong, and the other stuff comes in underneath that, because then they think, oh, to do that I then have to be bad. So it's about picking apart. Yeah. Do you want a luxury lifestyle? Okay. Do you want a luxury lifestyle? Then you have to discuss how that happened? Yeah. And it's, it's really hard nowadays, because there are so many Instagramers who appear to do nothing. And have these plush lifestyle.

Susie Asli: 28:26

Yeah. And I think that's what's attracting a lot of a lot of them is that he's making it he's explicitly saying it's easy. It's easy to have what I have you just have to do this and this and then you have to work at it though. Yeah, yeah. You saying you have to work at it. But that it's it's kind of he's giving them a route map?

Rachel Richards: 28:42

Yes, absolutely. You're saying if you're in the matrix, you think you should be out there? Yeah. X Y Zed? No. I'm going to open your eyes and I'm going to show you how you can do things a different way that will bring you vast amounts of money.

Susie Asli: 28:54

And and teenagers hate being manipulated. If we can kind of point out that where it's not in alignment and where he they're being scammed. Yeah, they don't like that they feel they feel that

Rachel Richards: 29:05

so that's it. So looking for the inconsistency. So we do have to engage unfortunately, it may involve having to talk about agitate and do some research, but it's it's about looking for the inconsistencies in what he's saying and where so this is good. This isn't good and you don't have to be that the bad person to have the good Pete Good Stuff like Nelson Mandela, I don't think ever, you know, force women into subjugation in the way that Andrew tech talks about and yet he's still quoting Nelson Mandela, I'm sorry, but it's not a good

Susie Asli: 29:35

call. And maybe asking them you know, who do they Who do they think a great male role models you know, either in the media but also in their in their daily lives? Maybe that's more appropriate, you know, with family members or, or you know, where they go to school or in their clubs Who's Who's Who do they think is a great masculine role model and why what do they like about them and it's probably not the stuff that Andrew Tate is about. Hang out with the other things, you know, because what he's showing is a world where it's it's just it's so harsh and so cold. And there are none of the, the beautiful parts of being a human and like, you know, being kind or, or What effects do you have in the world. So if you have all the oh, he had a spat with Greta Turnbow didn't, it became a massive thing. And they wondering whether that's why he actually got caught in the end, because it was a pizza box.

Rachel Richards: 30:27

That was that was debunked.

Susie Asli: 30:30

But there was the idea that, you know, he doesn't care about the environment, for example, you know, he was laughing about it. So what if, you know, what effect do you want to have on the world, you make an impact on the people around you? And is that what you want? Probably not.

Rachel Richards: 30:45

Yeah, I love that. And so it's about having a group of men that you can, perhaps talk about that might inspire them, I'm going to put a list of the ones that I've managed to pull out on our website, so that, you know, in the blog post so that people can actually see, you know, suggestions if you if you're struggling to find somebody who's online, or who's a big name, who might inspire your son, that's great. And these are successful people, Trevor Noah at Stephen Bartlett, who does die of a CEO who's you know, he, and he's very comfortable talking about his feelings, but he's also very successful, made a lot of money. And he's a serial entrepreneur, the, you know, you don't have to be this horrible. He unpicks That horrible, toxic Max masculinity and discusses it. So it's very helpful. Yes,

Susie Asli: 31:31

yes, it is. Yes,

Rachel Richards: 31:33

yes. We also need to arm ourselves with the facts. So what's happening is, for example, this lady Laura Bates, who was going in and talking to people, and they were coming up with sheets of paper coming up with facts, you don't have to be able to have the answer immediately. So they say yes. But say, Oh, that's really thanks for showing me that fact that you think it's a fact? Let's go and actually look at it, and show them how to unpick what they're hearing or seeing and question whether it's real or not. And this is about teaching reasoning. And you know, we talk about the three Rs reading, writing and what's actually we need reasoning as well. And it's about listening to what people are saying, and then saying, I do, or I don't like that. And that does, or that resonates with me, but I can accept that. I don't want all of Yeah, that's

Susie Asli: 32:22

a great idea. Really great idea. And also maybe asking them we've I've mentioned, you know, asking what do you think, Man is, but what? What do they like in women? What do they are like that? Yes, absolutely. Men, like the women that they know. And maybe if they're really young, you know, they might still be at that phase, or they, she haven't spoken to a girl even though they probably sit next to them and math. But you know, who do they know? And who why do they like them? And what do they value? Like, you know, their mother, their sister, their cousin, their neighbor? You know, what's,

Rachel Richards: 32:55

what does it mean to them and give them space to talk about how you get a go?

Susie Asli: 32:58

And how are they not? In what way? Are they annoying? Yes. How did they get

Rachel Richards: 33:01

you because this is stuff that bothers them. So actually, and they're probably really embarrassed about it uncomfortable and trying to figure this stuff out? Well, actually, let's talk about it. And give them tips. Yeah, right.

Susie Asli: 33:12

We haven't got horns?

Rachel Richards: 33:13

No, no. And did that point you made is really, really key because my husband pointed out that one of the techniques used by agents who had been captured, if they were a woman, they were told one of the ways that you could save yourself from really unpleasant things that men might do to you is start engaging with them about their mother, or their sister or some female in their life. Interesting. Because what it does is it it start it switches the brain to thinking about so for example, what does your mother do for you? Yeah, what does she mean to you? What is your sister? What's the good and bad about your sister? I don't know. It's always going to work because I know that these two Andrew Tate and his brother have a sister who's pledged Kentucky, and

Susie Asli: 34:00

I literally Googled who's the who is their mother? Well, yeah, Dory.

Rachel Richards: 34:06

Yeah, yeah. So this is we've covered what we can with this. It's a very big topic. It's incendiary. I'll probably get trolled for it. I put something up that a school teacher had suggested, on Instagram, and I got two people trying to lure me into an argument. That wasn't very nice. But I'm just I refuse to be goaded very savvy. I just thought I just didn't care. I just makes me laugh. I mean, I just say, Well, yeah. Why do you think that? Come on? Let's talk about it. And they don't want to talk?

Susie Asli: 34:36

No, but the discussion is so important, and it's really important. It's made me just having this conversation is making me want to just go and check with my kids. We've had all these conversations that we've just both suggested, are really important. And we, you know, we get we get caught up in our busy lives. Don't we have less of the day to day but this stuff is important.

Rachel Richards: 34:55

And likewise with girls saying, you know, how do you feel about boys don't just demonize them They're not all doing the you know, they want they want relationships, they want to be successful that you know, we have to be soft, as well, as you know, direct, you have to be prepared to give them the chance to say how they feel. Yeah.

Susie Asli: 35:15

And get the girls to call the boys out if they come Yes, kind of behavior.

Rachel Richards: 35:19

Absolutely. What do you think? Have you had any issues with this? Do you know whether your sons have been accessing this material? Has it been talked about in their schools, it might even be worth just bringing out the words that we've mentioned, and seeing whether they, you know, light a fuse, whether they're boys, you know, we're accustomed to using those words, and whether they really know what the origin of their stuff is, because they may well have clicked into a zeitgeist, but not really understand what that Zeitgeist is.

Susie Asli: 35:51

And it can be I think, it can be the classic content, or we don't want to talk about it, because then it's a thing. And we don't want it to be bigger than it needs to be. Don't talk about it then. And they find it themselves that's worth Yes,

Rachel Richards: 36:03

yes, absolutely. Our silence is their oxygen. So if you've enjoyed this episode, then why not help other parents, tell your friends, tell the school, subscribe to our podcast, and it would be a massive bonus if you please leave a review. You can also sign up to receive all the latest at our own website where there's a blog reviews links, I will put the few sort of names of people that you could actually look at that might help your sons find role models that are perhaps a bit more positive. The address is www dot teenager's untangled.com. And Suzy can be reached on her home website, which is

Susie Asli: 36:39

www dot a mindful hyphen life.co.

Rachel Richards: 36:44

So many, lots of really good blogs there lots of thinking things that you can do to help yourself when you're stressed. And you can contact her and she will talk to

Susie Asli: 36:52

you for free

Rachel Richards: 36:53

for 1515 minutes. As opposed to some of these men, whatever. manosphere people are charging 1000s of pounds for a bargain. Yeah, it's all quantity though. Okay, that's it for now.

Susie Asli: 37:07

Bye bye for now.