Rachel Richards: 0:02

Hello, you're listening to teenagers on tangled and audio hug for parents going through the teenage years. I'm Rachel Richards former BBC correspondent parenting coach, mother of two teenagers and two older stepdaughters.

Susie Asli: 0:14

Hi, I'm Susie Asli, mindfulness coach, therapist, musician and mother of three teenagers, two of them are twins.

Rachel Richards: 0:21

Today we'll be talking about waving your kids off to university and how that can leave us parents feeling. And another topic that really gets parents riled up manners. What are they? And why do they matter so much? If you're not familiar with our format, we pick questions that have been raised by listeners or that we've come across day to day. And I research what the experts have to say on the matter. Susie, who spent her working life helping teenagers and adults manage their issues using a mindfulness approach gives us her own perspective and some really excellent tips on calming our fears. Now, before we get on to this week's key themes, I've decided to introduce a little segment called nuggets, not the chicken variety, we mean nuggets of gold that we've picked up as parents. So all reflections on what's happened this week. So Susie, what's yours this time.

Susie Asli: 1:11

I love this idea. And I'm struggling to pick which is great. My daughter is doing art GCSE. And she came home and she had to copy a picture, which was really quite complicated and difficult. And she felt quite overwhelmed. Like, where on earth do I start? Mom, I don't know how to do this. So I sat down with her and we broke it up into little bits, like literally little bits, you know, start here. Where'd What do you see now? What color and it just, it took us two evenings? Well, well, not the whole evening, but let it dry. And then we did it again. But it was just the concept of you know, breaking things down into little bit. By halfway through the first session, she was kind of like, okay, this is going to be alright, I can do this. So she went from overwhelmed, to breaking it down into little bits. And then by the end was quite happy with what she'd done. It was just quite a good

Rachel Richards: 2:05

sign. It's something we can all do just make things manageable when it all seems too overwhelming. think okay, what can I What can I do now. That's, that's doable. And then I can just do it one step at a time. So for me, I have quite a few too. But I've picked this one, I was talking with a teenager who said that her friend's mum was really loving, and trying very, very hard to be close to her, but that our friend constantly pushes her away, and actually hates being around her gives her the IQ. As they say, I asked this girl why she thinks that it's happening. And she thought about it and then said that there's no trust her. And I asked her why. And she talked about it again. And she said that the girl had once told her mom, something she felt was very personal, but that her mom had then immediately shared with everyone else in the family. And that really made me think because to be honest, I've done that sort of thing in the past, and my kids called me out about it. And I immediately apologized and and very directly said, right? You're completely right. And from now on, anything you tell me will be completely in confidence unless it's dangerous, or some and then even then I will say right, I think I need to tell somebody about this. And I think that's the reason why my goals are very happy to tell me pretty much anything, because they know that it will stop with me and that I will take great pleasure in trying to help them. And I won't judge them. And it's really hard to do because sometimes they tell me things now in my mind sort of waggy think comes out of my head going no, no, no, no, you shouldn't. But I have to calm that and just talk them through things and try and get get them to come to a solution instead. And it reminded me of one of the excellent comments a mother made when we first started this podcast, Sally, I think her name was. And she said, when you're an adult, we only tell people things when you trust them. And if you have a friend who you think is going to go and tell everybody else, something that you tell them that you feel is personal. Now, they may not value that in the same way you do. But you're not going to tell them once once it's happened once. So I think it's just one of those things that we have to remind ourselves sometimes that if we want to build that relationship with our teens, it also has to involve a deep level of trust. I remember being a teenager and deeply embarrassed by most things. Having other people talking about you is just to find more time. Now how do you feel about your teenager leaving home? Are you dreading it is known to have triggered a mental breakdown in some parents and the term empty nest syndrome or are you going to be rubbing your hands skipping back into the house and planning some exciting new adventures? Already said you're going to try both dogs or dogs to limit

Susie Asli: 4:55

you take my dog with me or you

Rachel Richards: 4:58

take them to the Maldives do that

Susie Asli: 5:00

their plans weren't as grand as

Rachel Richards: 5:04

I can dream. Anyway, I've seen some arguments between different parents that, you know, they say, right, once your kids 18, you've got to stop meddling, you've got to know, you know, stop trying to give them advice, let them just make their own mistakes. And, and I just thought, Oh, that's a bit painful because they suddenly hit 18. And it doesn't work like that really does

Susie Asli: 5:23

know, their brains are still developing as till they're 25. But you know, our relationship, of course changes and our role changes. But we're still we're still there for them.

Rachel Richards: 5:33

Yeah. Now, Sarah said, her dad suffered from empty nest syndrome, as well as her mother. And she found out years later that he used to cry when she went to university. And she said, Well, obviously, it would have been harder back then. Because there were no mobile phones. And her dad would get a call from the phone box. Every now and then usually, when she needed money were left home. Yeah, that's

Susie Asli: 5:53

so true. It really changed as the communications really changed. So they're not so far away. I think that that's actually really important that

Rachel Richards: 5:59

that can also make it harder. Yeah. Because it means that you've got the temptation to constantly message them. And then if they haven't messaged that you, you think, well, you can, you've got it, I paid for a phone or whatever. And then Allison told us that she grieved for about three months prior to her first child leaving, knowing that this was going to happen, and there were lots of tears and really sad moments. And then to realize that they do come back, and they're not gone forever, the holidays came around quickly, and that you can visit them. And she said, You know, that's a female, you can actually tap into, of course, the problem is that they then came home after university, so then you just again, and then they really leave. And so you know, one of hers is actually properly flown the nest, and she said that, please don't get me on to that, because that's really painful, must

Susie Asli: 6:47

be really hard. But it's also, you know, again, the idea that we've discussed before that that's, you know, being upset if if you feel upset, or you know, that this feeling of grief is a normal reaction to a situation, you know, we do like to go and pathologize everything and make it out to be, you know, some sort of abnormal illness. But that's a normal reaction. So allowing it in of course, it's hard. I know that when my kids leave, I kind of kid myself that because they have from a very early age gone and spent, you know, weeks at a time with their dads in another country that you know, I've done it a bit. So I'm kind of practice but as probably absolute rubbish. Any difference?

Rachel Richards: 7:33

I think that's absolutely spot on. And that is called a syndrome. But it's not a psychiatric health condition. What can happen though, is depression and anxiety as a result of feeling this this empty. Now, we

Susie Asli: 7:45

don't allow the feelings if we don't pretend they're not there, or you know, whatever it is we do. Yeah.

Rachel Richards: 7:50

And it describes loneliness, grief, pain, like you said, the grief, it can be physical and emotional, you feel it in your body,

Susie Asli: 7:57

completely connected, completely connected. And sometimes we feel the physical symptom first. And sometimes we feel the mental but it's totally connected to things pop up it first of all, is like, how you parent, so is your whole identity. Being a parent, no judgment there. But you know, for some, I think maybe particularly mothers, although I'm sure there are some fathers that have the same, their whole identity is being a mother and you know, that can be fine. But when that that means that when their child leaves or children leave, they are then left well, okay, who am I now and that can be really tough and really difficult. So looking at that, and allowing that and then, you know, we aren't we are not our roles. We are we are way more than that, if we haven't really explored that that can be really painful.

Rachel Richards: 8:45

And being aware that this could come up is going to be helpful, because you can start early. And actually, you don't even have to be an at home mother. You don't have to be an at home father. There was a quote from a woman called Lillian little who said, I thought I would never suffer from emptiness syndrome. I'm a college professor with a PhD. I thought only pathetic women who have no life beyond their kids have a problem with this. And then she said she felt a life altering loss when her kids were leaving home. And you can have sleeplessness, loss of appetite, nausea, you know, like I said, it can be it can be both a sort of psychological grief, but it can also be physical.

Susie Asli: 9:21

Yeah, I mean, it's a loss, isn't it? It's a loss. And I think in I heard that, you know, in the olden days, however, is such a weird thing for olden days. People you know, mothers had, you know, psychological breakdown sometimes when their firstborn left off and if it was a boy and you know, I can see that being being a thing but and then there was there wasn't an awareness about it, and maybe the different kinds of help or not, not any help, but it's the same now it's a, it's a big loss.

Rachel Richards: 9:55

So things you can do to prepare ahead, identify what roles you actually play. aid. So, you know, I've been a mother, I've been a neighbor, I've been you know, if you've been working, what roles do you have in workplace? Your friends? So who am I? That's what I mean by identifying your roles? And then what roles would I like to have? Who, you know, what would I like to? If somebody said, put something on your gravestone? What would you like them to say about you?

Susie Asli: 10:20

Absolutely. And if you want to go even deeper, you can go Well, who am I? Without any roles? You know, who am I? Discovering your values? Yes. Who are you? And you're not being a mother, when you're not being a wife, when you're not being a caregiver or your work? You know, Who who are you without any label that

Rachel Richards: 10:37

I think I've discovered more and more about myself, the more that I've questioned, well, is this what you know, this doesn't feel right. I want to do something else. What do I want to do? Who do I want to be? So I started charitable work. I was helping at a toddler group. Yeah. Oh, my God, it was boring. And I just wanted to shoot myself every time you know, and I was cooking for them. And that was bought, you know? And then yeah, eventually you find your thing. So you did it through exploration, too. It happened instantly. I

Susie Asli: 11:02

know, it doesn't know.

Rachel Richards: 11:03

So and then reconnecting with your partner. Yeah. Now,

Susie Asli: 11:07

if you want a can of worms.

Rachel Richards: 11:14

Yeah, I mean, I did meet a woman once who was working in a shop, and she said, Oh, this is my daughter shop. And I'm working here. And I said, Well, it's so nice of you to help out. And she said, my husband's at home. We understand that sometimes, sometimes over the they're just the rough and tumble of life, that things can sort of start

Susie Asli: 11:32

unraveling. But it can be an opportunity, can't it? Because yes, it may be maybe if people have drifted apart, you know, it can be then a massive opportunity to look at it together. If both partners are up for that,

Rachel Richards: 11:43

try and plan to that, you know, what, what do we actually like to do together? So sit there and say, Well, what kind of things would you like to do with me, by the way, not just going off and doing your own thing.

Susie Asli: 11:51

And if you're on your own if you're a single parent, because I think maybe then you've maybe maybe you feel the loss even more, because I'm sure you're on your own with your child or children. And then suddenly, you're really on your own, you know, reconnecting with other people. How can you make that work? How can you be in a social network somehow?

Rachel Richards: 12:08

Absolutely. Building your friendship groups go going and doing things that interest you? And then that way, you'll meet more people who potentially like the same things as you. You know, it takes time it takes time, doesn't it? Yeah, you were able to cook whatever meals you want. Yeah, right.

Susie Asli: 12:24

As I start, when my kids go to Denmark,

Rachel Richards: 12:28

um, you life doesn't have to revolve around their sporting activities. So now you can think okay, well, I could go out and do some sports myself. Exercise, exercise is a massive one is a really good way of helping you is everything, everything really good.

Susie Asli: 12:42

It's how you look at stuff, isn't it? And then that can sound really flippant and superficial, but it is how you look at stuff. So you know, glass half full glass, half empty, they're leaving out that hurts giving space for that, that's really important, not just shoving a lid on it. But you know, okay, what, what's the plus in it? What can I do like that? You'd say there's sports activities.

Rachel Richards: 13:03

And as you said, you know, giving that space is accepting accepting those feelings of sadness. I mean, if you want to hug the t shirt of the absent team, that's fine. Do what it takes, you know. And it's always hard, because it's not just the absence of them in the house, it's that you are now potentially not needed, or, you know, your identity, they're not going to come home, and you don't have to wait for them to come through the door. And you may be thinking, are they safe? Yeah. So there's this kind of fear.

Susie Asli: 13:32

Yeah, absolutely. And it also touches on on with that in mind, it touches on a subject that we often refer to, which is change, isn't it? You know, we don't like change, but that is part of life. So you know, think that's the only thing that's constant? Absolutely. And so, you know, we've already, we've already experienced a lot of change with our kids, you know, they babies, toddlers are that, you know, it's changing, and then the next change is that they leave home. That's what we're meant to do. That means we've done our job. But we don't like it. So we cling on we clinging on to the stuff that we want, we want to keep and and it's the resistance to change the stuff makes us suffer.

Rachel Richards: 14:12

I think you're absolutely right. But I do think that one of the reasons why this can be particularly hard is if like me, you had your children later that when they leave it's a sign of really, you know, your impending old age. Yeah. And their sense. And, you know, when I talked to elderly people, they just say, Getting old is really horrible. And so there's this this fear that you're ending up, you know, you have to take life with both hands. And like you said, have a sense of gratitude. Take again, draw from people like Edith Eggers, and think, okay, what can I be excited about and grateful for and what can I build?

Susie Asli: 14:49

Yeah, and I really liked it. I don't know if we've talked about it before. I like to use a word like I have to I have to do this. I have to everything's a bit you know, heavy and if you put in instead You've heard saying I have to I get to

Rachel Richards: 15:02

oh, well, light which

Susie Asli: 15:05

I get to see my kids going off to. I get to do that, because not very not great. I mean, there are many very true, very true for that just

Rachel Richards: 15:17

even if the lounging around the house for the rest of their lives. That's not good. So yeah, no, you're absolutely right. One thing that I did read was that it's really important when this first happens, those first six months, don't make life altering changes, don't suddenly sell your house, don't suddenly jacking your job. Or, you know, unless you'd be planning on traveling around. You know, yeah, sure, wait, well, they might actually literally drop them off and you're heading for the airplane, they may think, Oh, my God.

Susie Asli: 15:47

abandonment. Okay, why is everything.

Rachel Richards: 15:52

But he's this sort of unit. Actually, there are there are elements of, you know, wanting to get on with it, which may not be healthy. You know, just give yourself a bit of time. Yeah, a bit of time to adjust. Because you may think that this is what you need right now. And you may find that six months down the line, and the dust is settled. And actually, it's a little bit different from that, or abandoning your husband, like I've been waiting all this time, I'm just gonna walk out right now. Just give it a little bit more time is really good.

Susie Asli: 16:17

And our kids might, you know, they might need us in a different way. You know,

Rachel Richards: 16:22

one of our listeners, Emma said to me, right, what you've got to do is you've got to log on to this. There's a Facebook group join this Facebook group, but group and it's what I wish I'd known. And it's about sort of, you know, teenagers leaving home. And I thought, well, yeah, yeah, that's great. And I logged on, and it's basically what I wish I hadn't known. Because it's, you know, teenagers who've gone to university and they don't like their course, or, you know, they've been sick, and they bit and all these parents coming and going, how do I deal with this? It doesn't stop. It doesn't stop. And this stuff actually matters, you know, being the backup being the kind of, you know, Guy and behind the scenes will say, Okay, I'll problem solve with you. Yes. Okay. They've gone away, but they never fully. Yeah, actually. Yeah, it was literally, but I don't want to I'm scared now.

Susie Asli: 17:08

Our role changes. But you know, they still were still there. Rock.

Rachel Richards: 17:11

Yeah. And in terms of practicing self care, you know, eating well, if I'm going to have a moment when I feel low, you can prepare for this and think what gives me joy, okay, I'm going to know that's going to be the thing I'll do, and try and build some new routines. Because the problem is if you have the old routines, and then they just disappear, you can be left completely flat lying in bed thinking now, what do i Why do I get up? Yeah,

Susie Asli: 17:34

haven't got to get anyone to the train station, or that they're on time or all that

Rachel Richards: 17:41

stuff. And it does take 28 days to form a new habit. So you do have to sort of just give it time, don't think, Oh, I can't do this. I just can't be this person. I can't you know,

Susie Asli: 17:50

is that beautiful balance? Isn't it between allowing the feelings that maybe don't feel so comfortable, don't feel great? Allowing them and taking care of them and having compassion and, you know, doing nice things? And then, you know, looking more actively, how can I help myself? What can I do?

Rachel Richards: 18:05

Yes. And so you've got to have these kind of working, working out what new challenges you can find for yourself, and resisting the urge to check in too much, which I mentioned at

Susie Asli: 18:15

the start. Because

Rachel Richards: 18:18

you've got the email and you can be sitting there like a love Lauren teenager waiting for a message from them. You know, what's happened, I know their habit. They're actually building a new life. And it's Freshers Week. And there's lots of stuff happening. And they're probably going to call you when they play. And the opposite

Susie Asli: 18:34

of them going, I want to come home and ringing you all the time wouldn't be great either. So

Rachel Richards: 18:38

precisely. They don't call you it's okay. And I do I, you know, I love hearing all the gossip from my kids. So there are times when I really want to ask them about this. And I just say, Rachel, go do something else. Yes. Because also, if you're still checking in on them, you're not going to be able to move on with your life. So these are all and finding ways to laugh, locking releases all sorts of nothing as good as graphics. So how to remain connected with your child because that's another sort of branch of this. And the most crucial thing is don't pass on this weight of grief. Yeah. So you can say, I'm going to miss you. But I'm so happy for you. Yeah. And but labeling them with so alone. The best way to make them just not want to call you or to call you and feel miserable in their life because they feel like they've let you down or whatever your relationship is not it's really unfair to do that when it's difficult thing for them to do.

Susie Asli: 19:38

Yes, it's lying to you. It is it's like when we talked about it with the lone parenting, didn't we? You know, when the kids go off to the other parent is exactly the same. I say you're gonna miss them because it's nice to know you'll be near Yes. And I'm going to be doing this and listen to this so that they're not imagining you sitting at home. You know, looking at your

Rachel Richards: 19:57

phone, or using your one your One person,

Susie Asli: 20:01

they know you're out doing something fun, that's really nice for them.

Rachel Richards: 20:05

And remember that some of them will have moved into halls of residence at university and it will be probably fun but horrible because they're sharing with all these other teenagers who don't have any hygiene standards so they're having to cope and it can be really hard for them so then hearing their mother all the time will make them feel that Oh, I just want to go home. Yeah, that's not what you want. It's not gonna you might want that. That's not what we should want. Yeah, let them make a few of their own mistakes but be that backup. So just be there and if they just say look, anytime you want to call if you want to talk something through or Yeah, part time job full time availability. Interestingly, though, I read the Pew Research Center in 2016, reported that for the first time living with parents is now the most common situation for people ages 18 to 34. Wow. Which is a bit physical Boomerang Kids Yes. Where they go away and and the comeback. And I imagine that's probably increasing. Yes. The financial climate because of the financial climate. We had that with lockdown. We've had it with the so one of my bonus daughters just messaged me and said, Nick, can I bring my stuff? And you know, I'm going to sofa surf, but can I use you as a base because she can't find anywhere to live, which is really just terrific. Because she said, all the properties are going 24 hours, they're gone. Crazy. And that's very hard. So of course, it's hard when you can, but when they do come back, of course, you're having to sort of shut reshuffle your life, you've got justice, or they're not being there, you've got a new rhythm, and then you have to reshuffle again and a very different role. It's a very different role. And Libby, one of our listeners said her son is about to move back in. He's, you know, similar situation. He's brought his stuff back, rearrange the room, programmed Alexa to switch on lights and an alarm every morning at 6am. And then he left because he wanted to go and see his girlfriend. And so he's coming back after the week. I think at the end of the weekend, she said every morning, she wakes up at 6am with its alarm blaring. She can't work out how to switch it up. She can't get ahold of the lady. And she's saying to Alexa, stop switch off the lights and the Alexa saying which lights which every single light separately, really, she has to say please switch off this light on the desktop. And so it's sort of

Susie Asli: 22:12

unplug Alexa, I say,

Rachel Richards: 22:14

you know so right? Why didn't I say that? Libby, just unplug it. This is a reminder, there were two gifts we should give our children one is roots. And the other is wings. Oh, I love that. And we can just come back to that and just say if they're not there, it's okay. I'm still providing the routes, they can still come back. But it's I've given them wings. And it's something amazing that I've done. It's beautiful, and they will come back. If you're suffering a deep sense of loss in it and you're not able to get out of bed you're not not able to function. And this continues. It's worth speaking to a doctor. Yeah, because you can tap into depression. Yeah,

Susie Asli: 22:51

yeah. The normal grief is a normal response to a situation that's difficult. But if it gets stuck in it, that's that's tough. Yeah. So don't

Rachel Richards: 22:59

don't don't feel afraid about just getting a little bit of help. But don't jump at it straight away. Just understand that it's okay. It's normal. You're normal. You're not weird. It's fine. Any big shift in life circumstances can feel unsettling. So acknowledging it has to be the first step to coping and send any comments or questions you have to help at teenagers. untangle.com. You can also review us on our website, one of our listeners, I was talking to Polly, who has an Apple phone but she wasn't sure how to follow us. Okay, because she had she managed to go on the website but she didn't know how to subscribe. So I looked at the Apple phone I said all you do is you just kind of find our main page on the iPhone, zip down through the podcasts right to the very bottom and that will have reviews and and I think there's subscription there as well. Something anyway, just just flick through, you can find it. I know it's hard to navigate these things sometimes. When I was doing that. They mentioned other podcasts you might be interested in listening to you've enjoyed this podcast. Guess what came up? If you listen to teenagers untangled you might enjoy how to fail.

Susie Asli: 24:00

Oh, thanks, apple.

Rachel Richards: 24:02

I don't think I need any help with that. Thank you very much. We're talking about manners next but Susie, we've had some excellent feedback from Natalie in Italy

Susie Asli: 24:12

we have which actually made me cry. For more No, I was quite hormonal, but I still made me cry many things. You guys are awesome. Some people really want need help but cannot afford to go to a therapist. You and Susie have really really helping people. I kid you not when I listened to the two of you. It makes me feel so calm and puts a smile on my face. You guys are so upbeat, honest and caring and most importantly give great advice. I've tried to listen to alternatives and my god they are boring. Keep going brilliant. And my 14 year old son I read it out to him very proudly and without even missing a beat he just went Did you write that much?

Rachel Richards: 24:51

Thank you. Anyway, Natalie, that was really, really kind of you to let us know that and it means a lot to us because you know we're just chatting to the microphone so we don't know keynotes really were boring. So thank you. Now, Alex, who actually was the person who came up with this podcast idea, she raised the issue of manners. And the reason she did this was because her daughter who is about to go to Oxford University, well done, but we wouldn't care if she was going somewhere else, it doesn't matter if she had got a bit cross with her mother, because being part French, and she expected her mother to have told her something. And that was what the man is, we're in a French environment when she went into it. And her mother said, it's just so much part of who we are that I hadn't really thought about it. Very interesting point. Thank you for raising it. Yeah. And the point was that the French, when you go to their houses, had a very, very specific routine. And this is etiquette. And we'll come on to that in a minute. And what you do is kiss kiss, both cheeks, and you have to look people in the eye have a conversation like, you know, bonjour, madame, and then have just a brief conversation with them. And then you can go off and be a ragged, horrible teenager. And then at the end of being at the house, or the party or whatever, you have to repeat that exercise, you go up and you give Kiss Kiss. And then you have to acknowledge that you had a lovely time. And then you leave. And it's this formula is very important to the French, and it's instilled in them from a young age. And Alex and I were laughing because our experience of and I don't know where you're listening. But our experience of English teenagers has varied enormously. And we do get the ones where they just passed like a shadow. Yeah, like a ghostly shadow, somewhere in my peripheral vision. And then you can hear some cackling upstairs. And there's just literally Yeah, I just feel sort of a bit is who is in my house? Yeah. And or a bit of a grunt. And, you know, no, no looking at you. And it's a really interesting phenomenon

Susie Asli: 26:49

really interesting. And it's really varied. In my experience. It's very varied. I think, you know, actually, my kids have got really lovely friends who are all really sociable actually, and are really good at talking to adults, they always ask me Oh, hi, Susie, how are you? And which is

Rachel Richards: 27:03

really lovely, partly who you are as well,

Susie Asli: 27:05

I think, yeah, maybe I kind of hang out with them. And they're like, can you hear me but I've also I have also experienced you know, other other that the shadow I like that description, the shadow or you know, that it just the shy ones. This is about bothered by that, because it's usually because they feel uncomfortable. So I would hate to make them do something they felt. And that's it.

Rachel Richards: 27:31

And Alex said that she said, you know, her experience of males coming to her house who were English, she just a bit shocked, because they just know, they didn't seem to have the etiquette now, so I'm used the word etiquette. So this is an interesting one, I actually said to my husband. So what's the difference between manners and etiquette? And it really annoyed me? Because he absolutely nailed it immediately? And have you been to some finishing school or something, you're really irritating me. Etiquette is a set of courteous rules for performing certain actions based on societal norms and values. So there will be etiquette in every single place you go. Yep. In Japan, they'll be etiquette in America, there'll be you know, anywhere you are, there's etiquette. And these are the things that are expected of you to be part of that group. It's an easy way of them spotting who's an outsider, and actually keeping you outside. So you know, in England, it's been used in the social classes by you know, the sort of upper class that the lower classes would use the word Soviet, for example, whereas the upper class would use the word napkin and they immediately heard that word Soviet, and I didn't know that they would know that I'm afraid you're, you're trying too hard. It's because it's a French word. And so it was bought into the French court, and it's not an English, you know. So it's just isn't an insane way of actually delineating what your who is your social group, a man is a part of that. And good manners, though. They are to do with your attitude towards other people and how important their comfort is to you. Okay, so inter relational, there's a saying, Man has maketh man, I don't know if you've heard of it. It's typically attributed to the 14th century Bishop, William Wickham, it means a person is not defined by their birth property or money, but rather by how he or she behaves towards other people, someone who has good manners will walk into a situation, I think, what's the etiquette here? Okay, oh, that's really interest. They will think how do I make this person feel comfortable? How should I be behaving in this particular scenario? It's, it reflects someone's level of respect, kindness and consideration for others. Yeah. So you're not somebody in a restaurant who goes Oh, that is bad manners, isn't it? And it's rude because what you're doing is undermining somebody else's place. What was very funny was my daughter's I remember waiting outside a Museum in London and there was a family opposite us. And this was when my daughters were quite little and the mother was sort of drinking soup out of a kind of a big mug thing and She was really slurping loudly. And then at the end she

Susie Asli: 30:07

barely would giggling.

Rachel Richards: 30:08

What I just said, Girls, she's just from a different culture. And that's probably that's probably a sign that she's really enjoying it. Yeah. So you have to understand. So it's interesting, fun one, because I can

Susie Asli: 30:19

bang on about culture here. Because from anthropology, we all have these unspoken unwritten rules that we just are sponges for, and kids are particularly sponges. But we're not always aware of them. So it's only when we go into a different one that we notice the contrast and go oh, like your friend with the French. It's only when it's different that we actually can then go oh, that's what we do.

Rachel Richards: 30:39

You can you can recognize it enjoy something different. Or you can feel embarrassed because you did something that the other people found really offensive. Yeah.

Susie Asli: 30:47

So have curiosity. Oh, you do it that way. Oh, you spit your food out? Great. Can we do that?

Rachel Richards: 30:55

But this is this comes back to one of the things I remember looking at parenting with a lot of parents. And you know, you it's nice to start young, but it's never too late. And it's this sense that there were rules absolutely everywhere. It doesn't matter where you are. Yeah, okay. Them don't feel there's no rule. But you know, generally there were rules. And you getting your kids from an early age to understand there are rules, let's work out what they are. And know when you're breaking

Susie Asli: 31:20

them. I think research shows for little kids that the best way of getting them to be a particular way, if that's what you want them to do, is to do it yourself.

Rachel Richards: 31:28

absolutely spot on,

Susie Asli: 31:30

you're telling them is not very effective. But if they always see you going, thank you, please, if that's what you want your child to do, then eventually they'll just do it because they are sponges.

Rachel Richards: 31:42

I think that's so spot on. So teenagers as well, yes. And they didn't want to hear you telling them what they should be doing when you're not doing it. So there's some I've got some fun ones. And you know, I have not researched this extensively. These ones. So correct me if you're listening in Japan, and it's not there, so let me know. But apparently, in Japan, if you tip is actually considered offensive. Oh, because you're basically saying Here have some extra money because you need some training. Oh, wow. Whereas in America, it's, you know, that's everybody. Yes. Right. And it's offensive if you don't avoid the salt shaker in Egypt, okay. Because if you put salt onto the food as a way of saying, Look, you haven't done this right. And it tastes awful. I mean, I have seen people salt before they've tried the food. And

Susie Asli: 32:28

I find that a bit irritating. Some people find that offensive here as well. Yes,

Rachel Richards: 32:31

yes. Here's one that I mentioned to my husband. And it's never fill your own glass in Japan is considered to be very narcissistic, and even antisocial. Because what you're supposed to do is fill everybody else's glass. And then someone else will fill yours. So it's a kind of, you know, very, and I mentioned this to my husband, I said it's really interesting, isn't it? He said, Well, yeah, but that's just, that's just plain madness. I mean, you never fill your own glass. And I thought, Oh, wow. Well, I kind of have because I've been to dinner parties where, you know, I'm the person drinking water and other people are drinking alcohol. And I'm sort of looking at them thinking Oh, you don't need that. Yeah, there's only the small amount of water left in the bottle. So I'll just pour it in. And I think, Gosh, was I leaving? And everyone goes, oh, did you see?

Susie Asli: 33:19

Oh, definitely. I think that's okay.

Rachel Richards: 33:22

And apparently in France now, I'd love my French but I haven't called my French friends but apparently bringing wine to a dinner party in France. You're here in the UK? It's kind of doubly good. Right? You take the why? In France? No. No, that means you do you don't think the host is good at picking wine. Wow. And I'm afraid the French you know, they like their wines. Yeah. Kind of offensive. Good to know. So actually, it's really easy to be just a little bit, but hopefully they just get she's English. She can't help it. Yeah, now I asked my daughters what they thought were important, man is did you ever you ask your kids?

Susie Asli: 33:59

I've talked about it with them. Yeah, no, you go first.

Rachel Richards: 34:02

So one of my daughters Central, please. And thank you, obviously. And I said, Yeah, okay, that's a good start anything else? And she said, Well, just man is a really important. So I thought, well, at least you know if she sees this as important. The other one said, gratitude. Oh, I thought, oh, that's an interesting one. And I said, why gratitude? And she said, it just, it just makes everybody feel better when you notice that someone's done something for you. And you say thank you. Yeah, so it's not just about Thank you. It's about noticing that something's been done that they need to the effect

Susie Asli: 34:34

that your man has have on your diet. I did ask mine and one of mindset came from something he did actually. Someone was around visiting that he didn't know and we had dinner and then he went off to watch some TV or something. And as she was leaving called Obi and, and he went by and said, really nice to meet you. And I just thought that was really lovely. I was thinking Crikey. I would not have said that when I was 14. Yeah. CES shuffled off and gone by. And I just didn't want to make a thing of it. But I said, after she left, that was really lovely. I really loved that you said, Nice to meet you, you know? And he kind of looked at me and was like, Well, of course. Of course, you know, I'm not, I think he said, I'm not, you know, not an animal, or something. I didn't mean. And we talked about manners then and I, and he said, what he thinks it's really important. And, and his friends are very, very good at talking. And I said, I think it's a lovely thing. But you know, what do you think about it? And he said, he thinks it's really important. And he related it to getting on with people, you know, if he wants to get a job later in life, it's important to have manners and hit for him, they were really important. It was, I hadn't really thought about it.

Rachel Richards: 35:44

I think nervous focus very insightful, isn't that actually it will make you able to influence people more? Because I think at the root of it all, is people want to be seen. Yeah. And manners, when you demonstrate manners, whatever they are, what you're doing is you're showing the other people that they matter, and that you've noticed, yes, that this Yeah.

Susie Asli: 36:03

I mean, there's there is a boundary in it as well, isn't it, you know, the idea that we make our kids, you know, say these particular things or you know, or even physically, you know, you make them go and hug a relative when they don't want to, I don't like that. But to sort of, I just come back again to the you know, they will do what you do. So if you are if you are, you know, nice to people, they will copy it to some level. I mean, I have to add that at the same evening where one of my children did, nice to meet you, we had a take away, and one of my other children was trying to grab as much meat as possible. And I had to stand behind the guest and go pass it on. So where are your manners kind of the same family.

Rachel Richards: 36:49

And that's, and the interesting thing is, so for example, when I went to Israel, because I worked in Israel for a while I'm not Jewish, and I just long story. But I remember being stoned into complete silence when I got to a meal. And basically, everyone talked over everybody and grabbed the food, the food went down on the table, everyone grabbed, and someone nudged me and said, Take Take, otherwise there won't be any left. Yeah. And I just looked at him, I thought, how does this work? Because in in England, you have to wait until the they'll there'll be somebody who's the host? And we'll say, right, you know, would you please help yourself when you wait to be given that sign? And also people die? child doesn't? No, no, no. I just see what's really interesting is for some people, that's really not that, you know, and it was quite a big thing to move into a different.

Susie Asli: 37:36

That's the point, isn't it? Yeah. It's different culture. I mean, I lived in Denmark for years. And they don't have the word please.

Rachel Richards: 37:43

Mm hmm.

Susie Asli: 37:43

I English person. And they don't do small talk. So I went as a very early 20s quite shy, and you know, making really bad small talk probably, and they just look at me like I was a complete loser. Like, why are you? Why are you dribbling on about that? And then you get used to it. So it's, but again, it's the contrast is that we know what we do when we when we meet somebody who does something different? Yes, I'm getting used to that. But they don't have the word please. So my kids are bilingual. So when they come back here, they have to, you know, adjust us please, again, you know, they have ways of being polite, but they use different words. And you know, you're sitting at the meal table, and you know, pass me that. Yeah. It's super polite. Can I can I, I think the literal translation is Can I can I beg you to pass it to me or something? And it sounds it sounds weird, translated, but they do have ways of doing it. But the norm isn't, isn't to say please,

Rachel Richards: 38:38

no, no. And I think I think when we're talking to our teenagers about it, it's just making them aware of it, making them aware of what it is that you're saying, when you have good manners, it's about showing respect, and just just being kind to people. And also being aware that you're going to go into scenarios where you don't know what the etiquette is. But if you are aware that there will be manners etiquette, your manners will make you think, okay, how does this work and maybe stand back for a second and just look at what other people are doing before you weighed in and, you know, becoming the person? Yeah, bad thing.

Susie Asli: 39:15

And they're also quite quick to notice when somebody is being off with them. I've noticed Yeah, so maybe they know what feels bad they do. So kind of going again, on the as I'm always banging on about, you know, how does it make you feel the way you are in the world? How how, you know, try and have empathy? How does it How does it make you feel when people aren't nice to you or polite to you? Not very nice. Okay, well, maybe not do that yourself. And

Rachel Richards: 39:37

I think that's absolutely spot on. And that's one of the things that made me think more recently when I hosted a party for one of my children. And it was fascinating because two of the kids who turned up were incredible. They've walked straight up to me and my husband separately and said, you know, Hello, Mrs. Rachel, how are you? How's your summer been? On Um, what can I do to help? Not? Can I help you? What can I do to help? You know, can I help? Can I carry that out? checked in with me a couple of times during the party, you know, how's it going? Can we clear this away, but that's amazing. And then, and then at the end coming over and saying, Thank you so much. One of them even sent me a thank you card lining. And then there was another kid who turned up to the party who basically wasn't your kid. But again, I'm not trying to shame people. I'm just saying that it felt different. Because I saw this, this kid walking across the garden, and I thought, Wait, and I said, Hell, it's so heavy. You and I, that was a bit rude of me to say, excuse me, who are you? And you know, he's grown a foot. And he said, It's mu. And I just looked at him, I thought, Oh, I didn't recognize you. But inside me, I was thinking, Well, you could have actually just come over and said, Oh,

Susie Asli: 40:48

my Yeah. And that's tricky, isn't it? Yeah. It's tricky, isn't it? Because then you have the whole, there are children who are shy, I mean, I'd have been mortified at that age to have to speak. And I know that some of them, you know, they find it really challenging. So it's doing it, you know, in a way that suits them as well, you know, nudging them out of their comfort zone a little bit, but not making them be a way that is hideous for them. Yes.

Rachel Richards: 41:13

But I think we as parents can help with this, because for example, one of my daughters has a friend who's painfully shy, and she bought her friends over and they all just did the whole ghost thing, you know, just wandering off upstairs. And I said to her afterwards, would you please tell them to come and say hi to me, just just just to say hi. And she said, Oh, she's really, really shy. And then I saw her just in passing one day, and I said, Oh, Hi, how's it going? You know, how, you know. And the feedback I got was that she was really delighted to have me say hi, and to acknowledge her. And I said to my daughter will tell her, that's how other people feel when she acknowledges. So it's this low iterative process of just saying, you know, so you felt good, then it feels good for other people. And it's, you know, don't try and shrink your place in the world take take your place and make it a good place. Yeah. And

Susie Asli: 42:00

do it in an organic way, as a mirror and nudge them a bit. Yeah.

Rachel Richards: 42:04

Yeah. So I don't have a whole list. Because as we are finding out there are many, many ways of offending people as well

Susie Asli: 42:12

as sharing many people are very extendable. Yes.

Rachel Richards: 42:15

No, that's the other one. That's the other one. Because, you know, my father was really easily offended. And it was just, and sometimes you can't, it's not even consistent. You know, like, you can do one thing, and then they find that really offensive and then whatever.

Susie Asli: 42:28

Yeah, my my grandparents and my parents think they find it really offensive if someone's wearing a hat inside.

Rachel Richards: 42:34

Yes. Well, of course that yeah, that was an old fashioned thing. My kids. Yeah.

Susie Asli: 42:40

Yeah, it makes sense. There's a history behind it. But you know, okay. There are things that you know, we don't have to keep,

Rachel Richards: 42:46

but again, that's about saying to them, okay, to the reason they're like that, like coming back to the what should we tell our girls to wear? When you're coming into the older generation, it's a mark of manners and respect to say, okay, I get that you're going to find this uncomfortable. So just because it's your space, I'm just going to come into it with your sensibilities. And that is mana.

Susie Asli: 43:05

Yeah, absolutely. My granny used to say that her granny would put if she had elbows on the table, and I was always like, why, what why is that rude for elders? And same? I don't get it. And she she said she would never get it. I never got actual answers. I can tell you the answer. Okay. But she'd say my granny used to put us she'd get if I had my elbow on the table, she'd bring me a sorcerer and put it in that.

Rachel Richards: 43:26

Then we say no uncooked joints on the table. But you know, I read now again, this might just be nonsense, but I read that it used to be the tables would be on kind of trestles or these tables that weren't even Yes. And anybody who put their elbows on the table would put too much weight on that the table and it would dislodge the table. It makes you stabilize it. I don't know how true that is.

Susie Asli: 43:48

Yeah. And in my table at home, you might put your elbow in something you don't want to I wouldn't do that.

Rachel Richards: 43:55

You got sources. Basically things to look out for is language. So how are you using your language in a setting? You know, what's, what's the way to speak to people and switch? So okay, I know you talk to your mates like that, but you're not going to use that language in this setting. Just be aware of it. Being friendly and respectful, you know, dressing appropriately. Again, just be knowing that when you go into another setting, it might just be a different dress code. So just being aware

Susie Asli: 44:25

again gives them the choice they if they have the estimation they can then choose nicely.

Rachel Richards: 44:29

timekeeping. You know, again, in Venice, what I think was in Venezuela, if you turn up on time to a dinner party, they think you're really greedy because you got there early to make sure you got as much as I can anyone in Venezuela, please let me right. No, this is wrong. But that's a funny spin on it, isn't it? It's my mother in law. If I ever if we turn up you know, anyone who's late, she's tapping her watch. So rude every culture I've learned if I'm doing dinner, I basically always make sure it's something that is not time sensitive, because because why put myself through that hell, and then I'm always happy. Just coming back to the fact that we're talking about teenagers here, there are teens specific things, because what's happened is the teens are now going out into the world. And so this is when we're starting to, there'll be home manners, and then they will kind of, okay, you're going to other people's houses. So I sat my girls down, when they'd get invited to another person's house, and I still say it and they get on one we know. But I just say, you know, please, and thank you always get up to clear the table, you know, stack the dishwasher off to wash up, you know, up the pad, Don't be the person who goes and stays at that house. And when you leave Vegas, thank God, they'd gone, right? Be the person where they say, Oh, your friends amazing. So you didn't want to be too obsequious. You don't want to just make your friends feel bad.

Susie Asli: 45:46

The kids who do offer to help or they do even if it's just like a hello, and my kids friends are lovely. You do think oh, that's, I really appreciate it.

Rachel Richards: 45:54

It really is. Because we feel seen. So this is at the root of all of it is, am I making these people feel seen when I walk into a room? Am I just ignoring people? Am I treating their property, you're in somebody else's house? Am I treating their house like I own it, and it doesn't matter? It's just that's those that think that's the thing to get into their head. And the key one with the sort of 1418 year old, they've got their phones or whatever, is, you know, don't, don't get, don't answer your phone in front of people, when you're talking to them. Don't sit at the table, pulling your phone out, all those sorts of things that they get into bad habits about a home sometimes and making them

Susie Asli: 46:30

context aware, because I'm sure because they'll have their own friendship, culture, and then friendship etiquettes. And maybe in that particular group, that it's completely fine and normal and they will do it but having an awareness that's that's maybe not the same everywhere.

Rachel Richards: 46:43

The key one is don't humiliate your teenager. About because it just, you know, just never did they do it. And they know they're not supposed to do it. Don't Don't berate them in public, or don't just wait till you get back and actually inspect why it matters to you. Because a lot of us trot out these things that our parents told us were the important things that's really good. And then when we inspect them, you just get them actually, it's really that Why

Susie Asli: 47:06

Why not yet? Yeah, yeah, we don't really have that many in our house, that probably doesn't surprise you. But then once that I've, you know, thought about that, that's really important. So then then they're really important and the rest, they can, you know, come and go.

Rachel Richards: 47:21

So here's what I'm going to do. My daughter is turning 16 Soon, and I have bought her a her own letter writings, no Card Writing set, so that it's easier for her to say thank you to people. Because it's a very, I think just 16 is a very special thing to have your own headed paper, no card as part of her 16th birthday present. And I'm also going to try and write out what I think are good manners, and actually get her input get my two other daughters input. Actually, luckily, I've never thought about this and never sat down and tried to work it out. And it would be fun for all of us as a kind of mark in the sand and say, right, you're you're about to turn 16 What you've had enough life experience. Now what do you think? What makes you feel good? What manners matter?

Susie Asli: 48:02

Oh, interesting. I'd love to see what you come up with.

Rachel Richards: 48:04

I will, I will do this. And I will put it on in the blog. On our website. Not tomorrow, it'll take

Susie Asli: 48:12

good thinking if I gave my my eldest, that for his 16 I'm not sure. He would have thought that was a great present.

Rachel Richards: 48:19

It's not gonna be pretty No, it's not a present. It's something we're going to do as a family. It's lovely. Using notelets to say thank you to people, and then I've got you. Now you can thank me with the notelets. Anyway. If you found our podcasts useful, we'd love it. If you could review us and tell your friends, our website now has everything in one place. So feel free to rummage around there and message us with any of your questions or tips or topics for us to cover. And you can read our musings. You can also reach us by that you can actually leave a voicemail here if you haven't heard any somebody somebody's gonna go on our website and leave us a voicemail. Yeah, that was so cool. I would love that. So in our next episode, we'll look at teenagers identity. Are they a smart one? Are they the funny one? Do we label our teenagers? And if we do it, do we do it? Subconsciously and how does being labeled as something impact on their entire self worth? Yeah, we'll unpack a bit of that. And also hygiene. To your teenagers pits make you puke? Are they wearing clothes that could stand up on their own? How do you get your teens to keep clean and what really matters out of these things. That's it for now. Don't forget to subscribe so that you don't miss an episode. You can also reach Susie by her own website which is Suzy

Susie Asli: 49:44

and mindful hyphen life.co. UK

Rachel Richards: 49:47

where you can book a free 15 minute call to hear more. You can talk to her in real life. You don't have to just listen to this. Okay. Until next time, goodbye. Bye bye for now.