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Can you imagine a TV presenter wearing the same blue suit on-screen for 12 months and nobody noticing, or commenting? Well in Australia, Karl Stefanovic did exactly this to make a point about the different standards men and women are held to. He says whilst his female colleagues were often messaged about what they were wearing, in his case nobody even mentioned his clothing. All the messages were about how he did his job.
This is the difficult world our teenage girls have to navigate. So they soon realise that what they wear has immense power, but also marks them out and exposes them to criticism. It's a tricky path to tread even for an adult woman. Given that our teen girls are growing up in a world in which many of their icons dress in a very provocative manner, the question of how we talk to our own daughters about the clothes they chose has never been more important.
So how do we tread the line between making sure that they feel confident about themselves, without triggering our own fears and prejudices?
Also, a housing crisis in Sarah's area has meant their family have had to downsize their home. She's concerned about how she should talk with her teenagers about the situation. We look at how she can handle it in a way that stops the situation from having more of an impact than it needs to.
RESOURCES USED:
Girls clothing
Change of circumstance
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www.amindful-life.co.uk
Hello, you're listening to teenagers on tangled an audio hub for parents going through the teenage years. I'm Rachel Richards former BBC correspondent parenting coach a mother of two teenagers and two older stepdaughters.
Susie Asli:Hi, I'm Susie Asli, mindfulness coach, psychotherapist, and musician, and mother of three teenagers, two of them are twins.
Rachel Richards:Now if you're not familiar with our format, we pick questions that have been raised by listeners or that we come across day to day and I research what the experts have to say on the matter. Susie, who spends her working life helping teenagers and adults manage their issues, using a mindfulness approach gives us her own perspective and some excellent tips on calming our fears. Now both of us are doing this in our spare time and learning a huge amount ourselves. We'll talk later about Sarah's su she's coping with a change in home circumstances because of a sharp rise in the cost of property in the place where she lives. I'm sure it's an increasingly common problem at the moment because of the cost of living crisis. We'll talk about managing your own emotions as well as those of your teenager. And firstly, we have a great question, posted anonymously this time. How do you handle dress codes with your teenage daughter? The fashion trends these days seem to be as naked as possible. Am I the only one that doesn't want my daughter to wear shirts the size of a bra and shorts that are so short, they look like underwear?
Susie Asli:What a minefield. Or
Rachel Richards:you know what's really funny is I asked my big goals, I call that my biggest my bonus daughters who were with us this weekend, what they thought, because I thought, well, this is an interesting one, because 27 and 25. So would the 27 year olds about to be 28. And both very well established in their careers. And they both do wear very skimpy outfits, when they go out. They really challenge they push the boundaries in terms of what they'll put on social media. But they have private accounts. And I was curious, but what was really interesting is they sort of backed away from it a bit and said, Well, it's really difficult and, and the younger one said, Actually, she cringes when she sees teenage school girls wearing over the nice socks and very short skirts and lots of makeup. And I said well, why is that? She said Oh, because you know, it's just really hypersexual, and it just feels really wrong. And I thought, gosh, you know, what's really interesting is that was her age. And what it made me realize was that there is a kind of tipping point where they become more aware of what the signals are that are being sent out. You know why they might be awkward?
Susie Asli:I have no idea age 1415 What signals they potentially sending out? Yeah, it's just what they like to wear? Yes. So
Rachel Richards:it's a really, it's a minefield, as you say, and I you know, as a parent of four? Yes, my husband just doesn't want to look, he doesn't want to go there. He's like, I'm not, although he will, you know, when my daughter's wearing a crop top, he'll say, look, you're gonna be too caught, he will, he won't make comments about the sexuality of whatever they're wearing. It's always about, you know, that is too cold for that, right, which is actually quite smart. quite smart. I admire him so much. So it's a really interesting one, because, you know, a large part of the transition from childhood to adolescence is really difficult. And to be fair, this is one of one of the few areas I'm trying to think of other ones, where they can really have fun experiment and express themselves
Susie Asli:a bit like we talked about the, you know, the piercing and the hair and all of that it's self expression, and that they should be able to just express especially in this country where we wear school uniform, they don't have that much opportunities. Yeah, really no point, we go nuts. It's really important. And it's, you know, a lot of our own fears, we project onto them, and we want them to be safe, etc, etc. And where's the where, where's the boundary and all of that it's hard.
Rachel Richards:What you've said is really valuable, because it's how do we feel about this, we need to unpack how we think and feel about these things. Before we have conversations with our teenage girls about it. I mean, I'm sure it's all teenage girls, quite quickly pick up on what we think. Because it's sort of hardwired into us from our own social clothes are incredibly complicated. They send out messages and they're part of a society and a social message.
Susie Asli:And they just want to I mean, not all of them, but they want to look the same now. We've spoken about it before this herd mentality that gets increased it teenage years they want to fit in and clothes are a huge bonding thing. You know, if you look the same, then you're part of the bond. And if you don't, and your mom your mom's going, you're not allowed to wear that because it's whatever then That's really hard for them because they might not be accepted. Yeah. In their heads.
Rachel Richards:Yes, absolutely. So coming back to our own opinions about things to stop for a second, and listen to this, I'm going to read out some clothes. I'm just coming off the top of my head and think about who might be wearing them. Right? floral dress, miniskirt, headscarf, trouser suit. You know, when you hear these things, they're going to have images for you. They're going to be certain types of people who you think would wear those things?
Susie Asli:That's really interesting exercise. I had very clear pictures in my head. Yeah, and
Rachel Richards:B to and then and then they flip because oh, actually because you know, like a headscarf. Is that something that would have been worn by jackieo? Or are we talking about a headscarf that's been worn by a Muslim? Or we thought you know, so yeah, there are lots of little nuances about faith, but clothing is the signal. So first we have to do is we have to, I don't know, explore your own values about clothing and what we feel we think people should wear and then why. And why do you why? Why do you think and so here's an example. A friend of mine was with me and she started disrobing, we were going to go swimming. And she said, Well, I'm wearing a bikini, I'm sorry. And I said, Why are you sorry? And she said, and this is an absolutely gorgeous woman. And she said, Oh, you know, I guess because maybe I shouldn't really be wearing them anymore. And I said, Okay, I'm still lost. Well, you know, like my husband said, maybe my bikini date wearing days. Okay, he'd been there, I probably would have marched up to him and slapped him right then Yeah, got it. This is the world she she's living in. And these are values that she's taken in. And my attitude is basically bikini body is a body you put a bikini on? Yes. And it sort of upsets me that people feel trapped in this environment where they think that you know, you get to a certain age or you look a certain way. And and, you know, my attitude is, well, you know, your husband who said that? So he's maybe putting on a bit of weight, and he's getting a bit more wrinkly? Have you explained to him that he needs to put a shirt or onesie? Yeah. Can we can we not see your chest? You've got a bit of white chest tech? Can we cover that up? Please? Doesn't have a right. Nope, it's really weird is really it just doesn't make any sense. So
Susie Asli:it's an opportunity there, isn't it? Like in all areas of parenting to stop and go? Okay, what are my values? And are they just ones I've adopted from the previous generation? The media, my neighbors, the school? Or are they my own?
Rachel Richards:And am I trapped? I mean, that's one of the amazing things about having teenagers because I'm doing this podcast is I'm having to think about things where sometimes I've thought, Oh, I feel a bit uncomfortable about that. And I'm not quite sure why. And, and being able to address it and saying a camera can be trapped by that. That's just not a valid thing to think about anymore.
Susie Asli:No, I call it like a with with mindfulness awareness. Like, every time I feel icky, like this kind of icky feeling. Okay, well, then that's an opportunity to what's that? I'm curious, what what is that? Why do I feel icky about that? What What's the resistance in there? And I think a lot of things were close, and I've definitely felt it still feel it? I have a daughter. It's fear based, isn't it? But what is the fear? Fear is a huge topic, you know, Is it fear of what others might think? Is actual fear of her personal safety going out in looking a particular way? Is it fear of what people think of my parenting? Is it fear of, I don't know, there are a million different things. So it's really looking into the nitty gritty of sitting with that icky feeling, which we don't really like, what was going on is
Rachel Richards:the signal isn't tell us to have a thing. So you know, talking with your teens, about the styles and types of clothes they want to wear is actually can be a really fun way of showing your interest in their world. So and it will also save you money ostensibly, from buying them things that they don't want to wear. Negative attacks on clothes and choices will definitely feel very personal to them, because they're experimenting. And you know, if you take it, you really stand back and look at it, you've had this entire era, where you have been in control of their clothes. Now, they might have said, I'm not having that because it's got a label in it or whatever. But the truth is, you were in charge, they become teenagers, and there's a transition. And so this is the real time when they get to step away from that, but they don't really know what these clothes mean, they weren't born in a, you know, fully formed in terms of understanding all the social cues. So the great thing you can do is you can stick to concrete facts. So are you not going to be too cold in that I think you're going to be too cold in that. Possibly. Yeah, they probably say no, I'm going to be fine. That's okay. But you know, stick to concrete facts, the value judgments like you look sloty Yeah, no, no, go there. Okay. Now, the problem we've got at the moment is the prevailing argument which is coming back to what this poor lady has said, oh, you know, they're wearing these no clothes. The product argument is that a girl's right has a right to wear whatever she wants. And it's no one else's business. This is a Kim Kardashian thing that's perpetuated by a lot of other people. And, and I have some sympathy for that to an extent. But we need to unpack that with our teenagers and really inspect the truth of it. Yeah, we
Susie Asli:did a discussion about it, don't we? Because yes, in theory, in an ideal world that would, yes. However, they live in a society where, you know, you don't want them to meet things that will be really challenging and difficult and make them vulnerable. Sure.
Rachel Richards:But yeah, so it's about you know, talking to your, your, your your child is having to go from you constructing their outfits for different day to day weather, to them having to do that. There's learning what's in or out of season balancing comfort with style, you know, developing a love for fashion, and you know, what is your own style. So along that way, you're going to have a lot of hurdles, and you're going to make some mistakes. Fine.
Susie Asli:Can't remember when I picked my daughter's outfits, I think she was about five. That's a whole different story.
Rachel Richards:So now, the thing to do is sit down with your daughter. And well, this is one approach, this is the bridge that I've come up with it, I think, actually is that it's not just me, it's just the research I've read. That is a really effective way of doing this and a fun way of doing it. Go and look at some magazines, teenage magazines of fashion, you can look at Vogue, my older daughters very keen on Vogue, or tick tock, anything that that where is where is their world, let's go and have a look at their world. So keep the conversation playful, look at who they're following and say, right, so what do you think of those claims? just genuinely ask them? What do you you know, what do you like about them? What do you dislike? You know, would you wear those clothes? What activities do you think that person can do in those clothes? Can they run? What? You know? Can they run in those clothes? Are they? Can they go out to the shops and those clothes? Could they go and see their grandma in those clothes? What? You know, just talking about context? And then inspiration, say so say well, what do you what do you do like colors? Do you like floral prints? Do you like checks? Do you like it? You know, just trying to pin down what you're gonna get them to do a Pinterest board, for example, you know, what, what are your style things? What are your icons? And what things really matter to you? Do you like a midriff? Do you like just going through this process will and what will be great about it is you'll have the opportunity to explore their feelings about their own body, because actually talking to teenage girls about their own body can be fraught with difficulties. So for example, one of my daughters fixated on her waist, and it gave me an I didn't know that that was a thing for her. And I said to her, don't pick one part of your body and just say that that's wrong, because that's not what people are seeing. And we'd sat down and really talked it through. And since then, since she's understood that actually people don't look at Tiny, big teenagers get very fixated on one little thing that they think is wrong to but they don't realize that people don't see all of that they don't see the thing they see an entire person. And if we think it's competent her
Susie Asli:Yeah, that's amazing. It's really good awareness. Isn't it a great opportunity to find those things out. Clothes should be fun. It's self expression. It's, you know, what do you want to wear today? And you might not want to wear that tomorrow, you know, and it doesn't have you know, you can go to charity shops, my daughter loves charity shops and tries on all sorts of weird and wonderful things. We went into a shop that was Urban Outfitters where they have like an open changing room and I said, why let's play a game let's you pick me an outfit that I have to put, Oh, I loved and I'll pick you an outfit that you have to wear, like, pretty outrageous one and then we have to take a photo of ourselves. It was so much fun. I think she picked this like psychedelic tight, or full dress for me. And this big brown jumper that I wore, and I looked absolutely dreadful in it. And I picked her this really bright yellow, quite ugly, shiny dress and a fluffy lime green little cardigan. She looked amazing. Spectral, how do you look amazing in that outfit. But it was so much fun. And you know, then we just put them
Rachel Richards:I love that what an amazing idea just to being able to go and have a little experiment where you could do that even if you can't go to the shops you can do your job or with you know. But actually, they can also make you feel very they could they sort of make a statement about you. That can be the thing that you'd like to be, but that you don't feel you can own on a day to day basis. That's what I used to do. When I was a teenager, I go out to parties and I would wear the wildest I'd have my hair back combed and we'd be our diseases more kind of I wasn't at least a kid and you know you I would experiment with and then I'd go back to school and I'd be this meek person. And people would go what's kind of what's who is that? Amazing? That's amazing because it gives you it gives you you can actually put on a mask and have fun with it. So again, and I used to wear clothes like I'd wear a lower Ashley horrible or Ashley floral dress that I loved. And Doc marten boots, and it would just infuriate my father. And I would do it because it would infuriate my father, and it was sort of playing with troops and making sure I looked awful to be frank.
Susie Asli:It's like, it's like an experiment. Yeah, experimenting with who they are. Because that's exactly what they're doing as teenagers they're experimenting with, with who they are. And how you look is a massive part of that, you know, dressing up, Halloween is a big thing, isn't it? For teenagers? They love it. They love dressing up.
Rachel Richards:Yes, absolutely. I just want to be honest. And that's why it's become so popular because it is the whole and then talking about sexism and unfairness in dress codes, because I think it's very, it's very important to acknowledge that the way that girls have been told is a good way to dress then gets punished. So we are constantly being told as females, that to be a successful female, is your highly sexual object, you know, you look this certain way, or particular of your teenager, maybe not my someone my age, they won't really get us. But, but when you're a teenager, and then you do that, yeah. And then you're punished for it. Yeah. Because people say, Oh, she's so slutty. And and we and these girls can't win. Yeah, so don't don't don't punish girls for doing the successful thing being successful at what it is that scientists did. Society's telling them they should be.
Susie Asli:Yeah, yeah, no, that's really tricky, isn't it? I think ghosts at the end of the day is having a conversation. So they have this awareness that, you know, rightly or wrongly, whether we like it or not, some things are picked up signals are picked up in society, and so that they know that so that they're making a choice rather than just blindly, blindly going into it. Because they don't realize what their sent signals are sending out. And, you know, they don't have to change the way they are. But if they have an awareness, they can choose it.
Rachel Richards:I love that that's the most important point is that actually, I think, for the most part, they don't necessarily know, I knew telling them something that's quite aggressive, isn't going to help them learn. So explaining to them the content, the context of the world, that they're living in how those things might come across, and actually giving them the chance to read another person. So, you know, first of all, what do you like doing? Are you sporty? Are you winning? And and does the clothing you're wearing? tell people that? You know? And does that matter? So you might think I'm a really sporty person. But when I go out, I want to look completely different. That's fine. So what what it's all about just saying to them, so when you're putting clothes on, what you are doing is you're saying something whether you like it or not, if you're just wearing a baggy t shirt, you're still saying something? Because you're saying I don't care? Yeah. So it's really important for them to get a sense of okay, I'm going to say this right now, I'm going to say yeah, without
Susie Asli:being obsessive about it without making it into a bigger deal than you know, it needs to be but there is this awareness around it.
Rachel Richards:And reason, apart from just being offensive for not calling a girl something offensive, you know, it's saying, Well, that looks too sloppy. For example, I keep using that word is, if you think all they're really that's a bit hypersexual, they probably are exploring their sexuality, they've got this amazing new powerbomb
Susie Asli:probably look amazing.
Rachel Richards:So I look at my older daughter, who's now bought herself a super short dress she never did in the past, but she bought it. And I just thought, wow, because she's at an age now where I think she understands enough about what she's doing and how she's coming across. And it's a party dress. And wow, her legs are amazing. And I wish when I was her age, I felt that confident with my legs.
Susie Asli:Yes, yes, it's confidence, isn't it and feeling confident or feeling comfortable in their skins feeling okay with how they look how they feel. That is has to be the main part of all of this. And it's just a form of expression that we don't want to shame them for any of it because they're so vulnerable at this age, any tiny comment and it doesn't have to even be from somebody they're particularly close to, but any tiny comment about how they look, if they'd be feeling vulnerable that day that can really sit with them for years. So we have to put kid gloves on for this topic, I think and try and make it really fun and normal.
Rachel Richards:And if they had the backing of their family, you go yeah, you're great you experiment you, then actually those little comments that might come from somewhere else will be less, less painful and less less, they won't hit home in the same way. So it's a defense, but actually just talking to them and just saying, you know, this is empowering. When you walk into a room, we will know that when a woman walks into a room and she's looking amazing. Everyone's looking at the woman which can be incredibly empowering, but it can also be off putting for some other women who feel put down by it. So it's about sort of just again, just saying, you know, understand that that's the power you have Don't you walk into a room feel good about? Yeah.
Susie Asli:And the body aware Yeah, and the body image for for, you know, for women who or girls who don't maybe feel so great in their in their skin or they feel they, they'd like to look a different way it can be really triggering for them. So it's helping them, you know, how do you feel in this outfit? Or how do you want to? How do you want to feel?
Rachel Richards:Yes, yes. How do you want to feel? What are you trying to say to yourself? How do you, you know, make yourself feel good? Yeah. And context, once again, just giving them abroad, people who say, I can wear whatever I want. And it's nobody else's business. What they really demonstrating is a lack of understanding of society and context. And so for example, my oldest, she came to stay with us, and we were going to lunch with her great grandmother. So you can imagine she's went through the war. Wonderful, fun, sparkling woman, but my boneless daughter came out with her a very, very, very short skirt. I said, Oh, so that's a no. And she just looked a bit struck and said, What do you mean? And I said, that that skirt? Gorgeous legs, you know, you look great, but you're not wearing that you go into your great grandmother? And say, Well, why not? And I said, well, because it's not appropriate. It's not what you're doing is you're not showing respect for her generation, they wouldn't have worn that. That's not really. And you have to be conscious of the impression you're trying to give her. And it's disrespectful to her. Yeah. So she said, Well, that's all come and have a look at my wardrobe. You can wear anything in that. So she picked something out. She didn't fight. We just it wasn't it wasn't fraught with emotion. It was just what you have to understand about this particular context, is that that's not the right dress.
Susie Asli:Yeah. And I think that's a really useful message in that context, because that's really understandable, isn't it? I did mean, to be honest, I stumbled a little bit with this subject when when my daughter was first a teenager, or maybe still, you know, preteens. And suddenly everyone's suddenly they were all wearing, you know, crop tops and tiny shorts. And I was like, Whoa, I don't know how to do this. Where's the book. And we had conversations about it. And I could feel it was going the wrong way. It was like I was making more of a deal about it than it needed to be, because and also, because I wasn't clear myself. I was fumbling about in it. And we came to a crack, I remember was compromised, it was anyway, it worked out. It was fine. We we talked about it. But I think we have to make be sure we're not making more of a deal about it than it needs to be but also taking it up. And I don't really comment on her outfits about that kind of thing anymore. But you know, it's a bit of a minefield, if we're not careful.
Rachel Richards:Yeah. I mean, the less said the better. But then the when you do say yes, having conversations that are light, and you know, just helping them understand. And I love
Susie Asli:the idea of teaching them though, that it can be really empowering. I think that's really helpful.
Rachel Richards:Yes, but and it is. And one of the things that I think has made a big difference with my girls, and they both say they love it is when I gave them both an allowance. And I've talked about that. I think it was episode parenting tips for and the reason it's so wonderful. And it came up again, the other weekend was when my older daughter said, You know what, mommy, such and such as mom bought her a dress, and she doesn't really like it. And it's really expensive. And now she feels awful. And it's just a horrible, horrible situation. And she said, I'm so so grateful that You have given us an allowance, which is the money you would have spent spent anyway, so that I can then go and buy things that I think suits me and that fit with the thing I want to do. Yeah. And I felt great about that. And my other daughter mostly spends her money on fixing her phone screen. So she doesn't have a really big wardrobe. But she's now started literally a year in she started saying, Actually, I think I just keep wasting my money. And I went, Yeah. And then she said, I think I'm going to save for the I really liked these cargo pants, but they look really expensive. And I said they're not that expensive. And she saved and bought them. And then she said, Wow, this is great. I love these. And I said and also every time you wear them, you can feel good that you save for them and they're yours. And that's all about you. You're it's something and that helped her to focus on okay, what do I really want? What do I like? Do I like this more? Am I trying to be Yeah, it's really important. And just, we always do a little warning because sometimes these things can be a problem. And so the clothing becomes a big thing or they become highly preoccupied with their appearance, you know, body image, any of this stuff they could be verging on body dysmorphia, or or in that area. So it is something to have a little bit keep an eye out for because if you start thinking this becoming obsessive, that's the time to step in and have those conversations and think is this have we got too much or too obsessed with this?
Susie Asli:If they're, you know, really worried worrying about how Look all the time. That's not good.
Rachel Richards:So the answer is, basically have fun with it. Yeah. Now I want to talk about Sarah's situation. But first, I really wanted to highlight some feedback we received last week. Alexandra Brown who lives in Paris sent us the most wonderful email. She has told us that she doesn't mind being identified. So Suzy, perhaps you could read it out. So really
Susie Asli:lovely feedback. From her. It says, Hello, I live in Paris and discovered your podcast yesterday. I was looking for a pick me up after my 13 year old daughter left for a week at her dad's place. And our week together had been particularly tense and difficult. I cannot stop listening to you. Firstly, your voices are so soothing and reassuring. It feels as if listening to a friend saying I hear you everything will be alright. Just be kind to yourself. Oh, lovely thing to say. But most importantly, every piece of advice you give resonates so much with me. Every time you say something, I can't help myself. Wow, that's amazing. I need to try this. It makes so much sense. I've actually started taking notes and a brand new little notebook I was keeping for a special occasion. Wow. So from the bottom of my heart, and probably soon from my daughters and the rest of my families. Thank you so much you sound like to amazing human beings and your children are really lucky to have you as their mums.
Rachel Richards:It's very moving. And I tell my children that every day. I do I always my children grew up with me saying and I'm the best mommy in the world. Brilliant. I did I said to my girls, you're going to have to remember this when you really hate me. Just remember, just remember
Susie Asli:what Alexandria in Paris thing.
Rachel Richards:I'm horrible. But I can I can relate to that. Alexandra, I actually have a note but in CCC, my special notebook and I take notes too. So it's a great thing to do. Because otherwise you sort of they just get lost. Yeah, lose little tips. Now for our next topic. Sarah has had to deal with a change in circumstances a housing crisis where she lives has meant she's had to downsize and she feels it's impacted on her teens. So I looked into the just one of the facts behind this. And a recent survey by the Yorkshire Building Society has found that more than nine in 10, say 90% of 11 to 18 year olds are aware of the cost of living crisis. In another survey. 51% of children and young people said money worries had made them feel angry, unhappy, negative, anxious or stressed in the last three months. And NHS figures also show that children living in homes that have fallen behind in bills are more likely to develop mental health problems. Now the child psychologist Dr. Elizabeth Kilby says children don't necessarily worry about money, it's they absorb their parents concerns around the subject, particularly when they're treated as a taboo.
Susie Asli:Yeah, I mean, children are sponges, they pick up on absolutely everything, even the stuff we're hiding. And they just they mirror everything they pick up on all of it. And you know, there's no judgement there at all, because having a change in financial situation and big one, or even not a big one can be really challenging and really, really painful. Because it's not just necessarily the money is it, it's the whole, you know, maybe a shift in circumstances a shift in home in, you know, all all the things that are connected with that it can be seismic, and that can be really difficult to process for anybody. So, of course, you know, like, like divorce, it's like a big, could be a big might not be but it could be and a child will pick up on the stress the worry and you know, the pre emptive stress of not being able to pay the bills, if that's been the case, and they will pick up on that. And that's that's quite, that will go directly into their nervous system, not necessarily even through their conscious brain, because into their they mirror our nervous system.
Rachel Richards:That's it, that's a really interesting point. So it's actually sort of inside you rather than necessarily conscious. And so the truth is, if something like that is happening, or has happened, regardless of how big it is, the first thing we have to do is deal with our own feelings, which can be dramatic and very painful. And actually in this particular scenario, it may not be as big as grief, but it will be a form of grief. So you may find that okay, you picture yourself in this way. And now you've lost that so it can be to do with you know, your your college savings have gone Your house has gone your life scripts, your life script, like who am i becomes challenged and this alteration of your life script can mean that your it magnifies your feelings about that financial change and circumstances. Yeah,
Susie Asli:absolutely. I mean, it's, it's, you know, comparative to any big change and it is a form of grief, it's a loss. And, you know, we're not always great at dealing with loss in our society. It is a form of loss like like divorces loss,
Rachel Richards:and that the problem with this type of grief is so for example with divorce people know what divorce is. thing you can talk about, to an extent and grief when you lose someone, we just had the royal funeral. And it was just extraordinary. And people have a lot of rituals around grief, this form of grief is very difficult, because there's the embarrassment, loss of identity, feelings of betrayal, because maybe, you know, for example, if the housing market has changed, and somebody said, Well, we want our house back, because, you know, I want to sell it on and you just in this house thing, but this is this is my home, and you don't have any choices over it. And because it's not acknowledged as something that we should be grieving, where you think, well, I shouldn't be upset, because it's not as bad as you know, no one dies. Yeah, but it's a different thing. So with this lack of social ritual, for this form of grief, can make it much harder to process. So you have
Susie Asli:to be more conscious in allowing and giving space to the feelings that may come up, they may not, but then they may come up like a feeling of mourning something.
Rachel Richards:The first thing is all about surviving the situation is all about acceptance, accepting the fact that things have changed, honoring the way you feel about it. And, you know, fighting for the future rather than staying with what's happened. So there was a man called Viktor Frankl who championed this idea after returning home from three horrific years in Nazi death camps. And he discovered that even though he couldn't go back to the life you'd had before, which was obviously what he would have liked to have had, he realized that he could find new love, he could have become a father again, or he could, you know, he started looking to the future and found that this optimism was the thing that carried him through,
Susie Asli:he was amazing. He was all about, you know, choosing, you can't always choose your circumstances, but you can, you know, choose how you, how you how you
Rachel Richards:respond to them how you respond to, and the same with Edith Edgar, who, again, the choice is an amazing book and a really, really powerful message for us.
Susie Asli:And it's not belittling anything that people have gone through, because we have to give space to anything that comes up. But it's a really lovely opportunity to sort of question you know, what do I think about what what are my values, because the teenagers will pick up on on the wobble, and it's the idea that you know, we don't like uncertainty as human beings, we hate it. We've talked about this lots of times, we don't like uncertainty, we like to know we'd like the familiar even even when we know it's bad for us, we will pick the familiar.
Rachel Richards:And I love your point about uncertainty, because we talked about this in our discussion about future careers. And the truth is, we need to become more capable of coping with uncertainty than we ever have done in the past where people want certainty. But the truth is, the world is becoming more and more uncertain. So getting building techniques for coping with, you know, instability are really important. So for example, in the late 1970s, a researcher at the University of Chicago named Salvador muddy, began studying employees at Illinois Bell, some managers had trouble coping with change, others thrived. And what separated the two groups, the adaptive leaders chose to view all changes, whether they wanted them or not, as an unexpected part and an unexpected part of human experience, rather than a tragic anomaly. So if we can actually adjust the way that we look at our lives, and rather than think, you know, I'm building buildings, I'm on strong foundations, and I've got to stay where I am. If we can say, Okay, well, things change, right. So I need to adapt. How do I adapt? And and show that demonstrate that to our kids? Yeah,
Susie Asli:change is the only constant.
Rachel Richards:Constant? Yeah, it
Susie Asli:is absolutely changes the only constant in life. And if we can really, really accept that, even when it's hard, and it doesn't mean we have to go yay, when a change isn't nice. But if we have that basic understanding or basic expectation that there will be changed, then it's easier to manage when change arises. Yes.
Rachel Richards:And not stressing about being stressed. Because when it's the feelings about stress can cause more stress. So actually saying, okay, distress is signaling something, what is it signaling? What can I What can I make from this and take the power back, so talking about your feelings, in relation to the financial loss actually takes the power away from some of the dark deep secret, it needs to have it nice to have some air
Susie Asli:and it's not belittling. I mean, it's really stressful. Like it's really stressful. If you can't pay his bills. It's really stressful. If you're wondering whether you can feed your kids it's really stressful. So that's not you know, belittling any of that. But you know, taking care of yourself in that because you know, the kids will pick up on it and they are also able to manage some of that too. But teaching them to sit with discomfort is a really is a big part of what I do with teenagers. I teach a course Wilson, one of the things which always horrifies people, is they have to hold an electric shock ball. And the point is, they think it's hilarious and fun. But the point of that is, it's like he sends out random, very small shocks. I'm not taking your nose hair out or anything. But they have to hold this ball and it gives out random shocks. And the idea is that they learn to stand in a big group, the squealing? And what's it like? Or does it feel in your body, that something weird is about to happen, and then you're going to do it, and then afterwards, it passes, that you can you can sit with discomfort, so it's such a great thing,
Rachel Richards:and then you can look back on it and think that was temporary, it was time. Because I think actually, when you become an adult, one thing we need to try and remember is the times in the past, when we have coped when things have been felt catastrophic. And hope, you know, I imagined that we all go through these at some point I certainly have. And I draw strength from the times when I look back and think you know what I thought my world was ending. And it didn't, the problem is the teenager hasn't probably experienced those things. So this might be the first time and you need to draw on experiences that you've had where you can say, You know what, I really thought that was the end of things.
Susie Asli:Really good point yes. To show them that it's a passing phase. And it may be it's smooth, it's a long phase, but it will pass like everything. Yes.
Rachel Richards:And then within the next thing is thinking, okay, what can I learn from this, like you mentioned is about sort of adjusting, okay, if I learned that all I care about is money. Well, that's, you know, I guess that's it. But actually, the truth is, most people care about other things. What makes us feel good about ourselves, I think we did this in one of our previous episodes, is connection, and relationships. And that actually, is fundamentally what gives people self esteem. And so that the problem is when you lose your situation, like the home or something, and then it takes away strips, you of the people who matter to you, then that become becomes devastating. But if you can keep the people around you, including your family and building family relationships around going for walks, not going to the cinema, for example, you know, if you're having to pare back, finding ways where you as a family can, can do more things together that are fun, that aren't based on money, it can completely adjust the situation, your way you're looking at it. Yeah, it's hard and gratitude gratitude journal, you've talked about gratitude journals before, you know, just realizing that okay, well, you know, what, what one thing can I be
Susie Asli:practicing looking at stress levels as well, because it's, you know, as we just said, it can be really stressful wondering how you're going to pay the bill, or how you're going to, you know, your kids feet have grown and you can't afford any new shoes or something like that, you know, it's really stressful. And, you know, how can we manage stress in that situation? Really hard? Yes,
Rachel Richards:really hard. So essentially, we've talked about how you deal with it as an as a person who's having to cope with this. And then you've got to talk to your team. So how do you talk to your teen about it? Well, to begin with, you need to think, Okay, I'm going to I'm not, I'm not just going to blurt it out, you know, at a point when we're just doing the washing up or something. So no, think about what you feel comfortable sharing, what should the teenager be in on? Make a plan? Prepare yourself for the likely questions that they might have. Think positively about it. So this stuff we've just been saying, you need to do some of that for yourself first before you can explain it to the teenager and be positive for them. Create a safe space, and then try and orient the discussion around. Okay, we're doing something about this. We are we know what's going on. It's not some kind of weird secret. We are going we are trying to do this. And here's how. Because it makes them feel more comfortable if they know that something's been done as a plan. So when you're actually in the conversation, stay calm, focus on the facts, using the positive language and then being realistic. Don't say, oh, you know, we're not having a holiday this year, or we're not you know, we're having to downsize. But I'm sure we can get a big house and not just stay with the facts and say, we downsized. It's not a catastrophe. It's a smaller house, we can live in the smaller house or we can you know, whatever it is, whatever. Even if you're dying inside thinking, I don't want to be doing this. It's about trying to find ways of of, of being that in that moment. And accepting that's where you are right now. Not looking back.
Susie Asli:Yeah. because there'll be worrying. I mean, that there's nothing wrong with kids seeing that you're upset and that's a good thing sometimes, but that you're also okay.
Rachel Richards:Yes, absolutely. Because coming back to the point that I made where you know, it's during the Troubles in Northern Ireland where the mother as long as the mother was okay. The child was okay. They do take their cues from you.
Susie Asli:At least then. And it's not just the thoughts, like I said before, it's their nervous system, they are sponges, they know how you're feeling before you know yourself.
Rachel Richards:Yes. And let them steer the conversation if they want to say they go off in one direction, there's a new route we're talking about, you know, if they're going because it may be that they are really worried about something, and and they need to talk about it now, we may be offended when they say, Yeah, but my friends won't come around now, because we're not living in this big house. That's understandable. And so what we have to do is we have to put aside our our own offense, the you know, what, what's wrong with this house, you know, what's wrong with what I'm providing, because it feels like an attack and really deeply personal attack response. It's their response and their discomfort. And so you just say, well, if they're your true friends, we know that you could be in a field together, and it would be fun. And if it really matters that much to them, then here's what do you say to them, you know, give them some words, some words to use with their friends and say, you know, what, maybe this is that all, all that matters to you Come on, we can find somewhere else to go or,
Susie Asli:right, they may have other worries, or other other angers or you know, maybe grieving themselves, and maybe lots of things that come up, and allowing all of it,
Rachel Richards:yes, and just acknowledge it, don't, don't be afraid, it's about not being offended when they say something that triggers you, and you think that's what it was just they need you let
Susie Asli:them say, I understand why you think that and this is how we're gonna manage it.
Rachel Richards:Yeah. And then afterwards, be a good role model, show your children that while money is something you, you have to consider every day, it doesn't have to be something you obsess over. And again, I know that's easy, because if you are in the middle of a crisis, your body will end everything will be wanting to focus on that. Check in on your teenager to make sure they feel safe and happy. Encourage them to practice self care. And just keep that subject open. So so that, you know coming back to this whole being able to talk about things, which is what you're so good at this, this, this allowing people to feel the things they're feeling and saying to them, okay, I know we've had a conversation about it. But you know, if you think about something else, and you just want to come back to me, it's open, it's open, I can't say I've got all the answers, and I can't change where we're at, because we are where we at. And we can either feel terrible about it and look back to the past and think, Oh, it was so much better than or what we can do is think, right, you're getting opportunity to earn me some money.
Susie Asli:Just about to say, also, it's really important to make them not feel it's their responsibility to their responsibilities. Both and a practical level is the same as when you you know, when people get divorced or other big life changes, it's, I think often kids, you know, they see their parents suddenly a bit vulnerable, and they, they feel they want to help they want to fix all in a practical way, yes, but also in an emotional way. And that they can show empathy, and be caring, that's really lovely. But it's not their job to fix, you know, situation, like
Rachel Richards:please don't, don't, you don't be worrying about this, you do you and that stuff that's very important at your age, I'll fix this situation, give me a hug. And also, and also, but don't exclude them from coming up with suggestions for how things can work. You know, they may say, Well, maybe if we moved to this area, and you haven't been thinking about it, because you thought they'd be they wouldn't want to live there. Or you let them have a voice.
Susie Asli:Or it can be empowering for them to feel that they're contributing in a good way, but tell them it's not their responsibility and their job.
Rachel Richards:Um, if you found our podcast useful, do us a favor, click subscribe or even review us, you can review us on our website, send us an email or just social media, any of that stuff. Tell your friends because we don't advertise, we don't have a budget for anything. Basically, we do. Spread the word. Our website now has everything in one place. So feel free to rummage around there and message us with any of your questions or tips for topics to cover. You can also reach us via Facebook, Instagram, we read everything. Now in our next episode, we'll look at the impact on our families, when our teenagers finally leave home. Now, it's known to have triggered a mental breakdown in mothers particularly. So when you wave off your firstborn, will you rub your hands skip back into the house and plan some exciting new adventure? Or will you be consumed with grief? Where where are we sitting on this spectrum? Because, you know, it's all valid because so many people are feeling differently. I've seen parents who can't wait. And I've seen parents who would just, you know, they, in fact, I was talking to a lady the other day who said, you know when her son says he's really excited about moving out and going and getting his, you know, being at university and having digs and stuff and she was like, Yeah, and I just said but be proud that you're raising a child who's excited about their future. This isn't Amazing. They can be
Susie Asli:both. We can we can mourn, they've gone and we can be excited. Yes.
Rachel Richards:And there's a new phase. And I can speak from experience because I have two bonus daughters, who I've known since they were two and nearly six. And the truth is, they're back. They didn't they need support and love. And actually, they tell me the gossip and we have fun, and it's great. So they don't completely leave you. Unless you're a male and you're screwed. No, I'm joking. I'm joking. There's no it's not true. Also, Alex raised the issue of manners. I was having a walk with her the other day, she's the person who came up with the idea of a podcast, she wanted me to do something. And I loved it. And so manners, what different cultures expect to their teams, as she's French English. And she said, you know, the French are very, very different. You you turn up at a party Kiss, kiss every single person, every single person, and then and you have a conversation and then you're allowed to kind of move on. And she said, the you know, that is English to kids turn up and they basically just lucky if you get a fist bump, get a fist bump. Yes. So what are we instilling in our teenagers in terms of manners? Do they matter? Why do they matter very much. Where do we where do we find them on this form? Do we listen to other people and say one like that? Or do we just give notice that's how it's done. It's interesting. So but that's it for now. Don't forget to subscribe, as I said before, and you can reach Suzy by her own website, which has a new name now, which is a mindful hash. No, a mindful
Susie Asli:hyphen hyphen, live.co.uk on your website going on
Rachel Richards:your websites. Fabulous, fabulous, fabulous, lots of photos. You can see her and until next time, goodbye. Bye bye for now.
