21: Parenting styles: Parenting Together When You Can't Agree on a Parenting Style, also how to talk to your teen about their future career.

Rachel Richards: 0:03

Hello, I'm Rachel Richards former BBC correspondent parenting coach a mother of two teenagers and two older stepdaughters.

Susie Asli: 0:10

Hi I'm Suzy Asl, mindfulness instructor, psychotherapist, musician and mother of three teenagers two of them.

Rachel Richards: 0:18

Now Suzy in the UK everyone is back to school. Yeah. But it hasn't been long since they received their GCSEs. And in the UK GCSEs, a levels Baccalaureate grades, those are the important exams, aren't they before? GCSE, then it's a levels or baccalaureate and then you go on to university. It's great time to be talking about gales question, which is how to discuss jobs and careers with our teens. Yes, you know, and just whether the exam results are acceptable, all that sort of stuff. And we will cover that in the second half. But first, we've had more great feedback.

Susie Asli: 0:52

Yeah. Which is really lovely. I've got one here. So it's from Tareen. I'm hope I'm pronouncing her name right. In Cape Town, who says the episode on pornography was excellent. She spoke to her daughters about it, who said that their boyfriends watch every day, and I'm very open about it with each other. Apparently, some of the boys with girlfriends have already said that they don't find the girlfriend that attractive after a few months. Could pornography be the cause?

Rachel Richards: 1:18

It's a really good point. And I mean, I don't think we can answer that accurately. But we do need to be thinking about these things. Which is why we did cover it. Eve told us that one of her great fears is that her two teenagers will be sent images on their phones that they shouldn't have to see. She said, listening to you both with your words of wisdom, both from research and experience was greatly reassuring and gave me the tools to chat to my to she's thinking of telling them to listen to the podcast without her. But there are just a few things that she'd rather they didn't hear. So I've just actually a Suzy, I was wondering whether, you know, perhaps our listeners can tell us whether it would be worth re editing that take out the more extreme bits so that people could then download it to let that agility just listen. Because as the feedback we're getting that actually people would quite like their teenagers to just say, Hey, listen to this.

Susie Asli: 2:07

We've been asked Actually Actually, I was out in my local town with my daughter. And somebody recognized me which was Wow, terrifying for my daughter. So she went I listened to your My daughter. Oh, my God. She's so funny. She asked my daughter if, if she if she listened to the podcast. And Emily went, No. But we had a discussion about it. And yeah, she was she was really curious and was wanting her daughter to listen to it. So yeah, definitely food for thought as it were other think of it. That'd be interesting to hear.

Rachel Richards: 2:45

Yeah, I'd love to hear if there are any that you think, Oh, I'd like my kids to listen to this. But perhaps there were things in it, that we wouldn't want them to hear us. Because that's a whole load of other editing. But I'm prepared to do it. If it's if people feel like it might be useful to think about. Yeah. Now Louise has asked us to talk about one of the things that can put a huge strain on the relationship, coping with a different parenting style from your own. And the children not knowing where their boundaries are as a result. So Susie, you have a new partner, which is really interesting. And big question is, you've got another adult around. How easy has it become in terms of parenting?

Susie Asli: 3:26

Well, to say, we don't live together. So we are we see each other regularly, but we're not living together.

Rachel Richards: 3:34

But your children have met him. Yeah. Oh, yeah,

Susie Asli: 3:36

lots and lots of times. We've been on holiday together this summer. I think the biggest difference, because we're not parenting, we have teenagers, they're not little that would be different if they were little. We're not parenting each other's kids by any stretch of the imagination. I would call it more of a support, which is really, really valuable. Support for you as a parent as parents. So I have a I have a person a space I can I can talk to him about anything that I'm you know anything about the teenager? And of course, because he's a parent as well. Yeah, he can relate. Yes, absolutely. And his kids are the same age as mine, just by coincidence. So that's really helpful. But it's probably more more the support side, which is really valuable. And then it shows me the contrast of I've been doing this on my own for years, and it's very different. I think my kids really value him having him around. They've all said that in various ways. And, and he'll talk to them and feel feel the support of that. He doesn't have responsibility for them. So it's yes,

Rachel Richards: 4:39

it's different. And it's a really interesting one, because I suppose having somebody there who you can just unpack some of the questions with is really, really important. And you we underestimated when we were in a happy, healthy relationship. But I imagine if you're in a relationship where you have somebody who really doesn't see things the same way as you it can feel worse than not having to Someone with you. Yes,

Susie Asli: 5:01

it can feel like a constant, constant friction, I think and have quite a burden.

Rachel Richards: 5:06

Yes. Now I'm going to do a little bit of preamble because I've been thinking about this topic for quite a while. And I suppose the first thing I'd want to start with was when I was a teenager, I remember clearly saying to my mother, what would you say if I announced that I wanted to marry somebody of a different skin color to us? I mean, bear in mind, this is 40 years ago, my mother said, Yeah, I didn't really care. She said, What I'm much more interested in is what's his culture? And would it be similar to ours? And I thought, Whoa, that's really profound and quite thought provoking. So I didn't say anything more about it. But my goodness, it stuck with me. So remember this, as a parent, you can drop little tablets into the water, and they fears and you may not see anything happening, but they can really stay with your teens. So I then kept thinking, so what's cut? What is that? What is that culture? And I think culture is one of those things that we don't really know. Until we come up against another culture. Absolutely. It's the fabric that we live in.

Susie Asli: 6:08

And culture can be many, many things. We have like national culture, we have local culture, we have family culture, like we have a US there's a sibling culture, culture, the word culture is amazing. I studied social anthropology.

Rachel Richards: 6:23

So get me up on that. Okay. It is a really interesting thing. But I read the book Thinking Fast and Slow. And it's all about how our brains work to actually consider things that we find new and difficult, we have to switch into a different track, which is a slow thinking track. But most of our life is spent in the fast thinking track. So you're driving a car, you don't think about driving a car, once you've actually learn how to do it. You're sort of loadshedding, autopilot, autopilot, exactly whatever you want to refer to it as. And in many ways, we parent in that way, we don't really think too much about some of the things we're doing because you can't I mean, we're too busy. They're too many other things happening. You know, I'm not going to keep thinking how does this work? And why don't you sort of just fall back on what you found comfortable? Or what you learnt?

Susie Asli: 7:12

Yeah, we're not conscious about it. Yeah. Our culture to come back to the Word of culture. Yeah, you're absolutely right. We only realize our culture when we when something is different. Yeah, or something that's new. It could be positive, it could be negative. But yes, it is a contrast.

Rachel Richards: 7:27

And I that I then thought about my friend who married a Catholic, and she converted to Catholicism. And in order to go through the wedding, she had to go through a program with him have a weekly meeting with the priest to talk about a topic? So one of them would be sex one would be money. One would be, you know, your religious values, your family, your children, you name it. And I thought, wow, that's, that's an interesting one. But actually, she said it was the most valuable thing. Because these are things we sort of think we know about our partner. Yeah. But we don't unless you you're given a checklist, do you really go through all of that, before you hatch?

Susie Asli: 8:11

Everything will be fine.

Rachel Richards: 8:13

You know, you've got this massive rug that you just sweep over the window. And it doesn't seem quite right just yet. And we'll deal with that later. And actually, it's not such a big thing. And I can tolerate it doesn't matter.

Susie Asli: 8:22

And we're massive creatures of comfort. So we stay with what we know. Even when we're aware that it's not very good for us, we will keep doing

Rachel Richards: 8:29

it. No point. Yes. I'm guilty of that myself. Yeah. So the main disagreements tend to be about rules. Whether you'll, you know, like, I'll be able to be harsh, and we're going to be more relaxed about it. We covered making rules in Episode 14 and talked about unpacking the way you were parented as well, because that's another thing that we're that's really important here. We did that right? In the very first episodes, if you haven't listened to that, it might be worth just going back. And having a quick is quite a short one. Because it's just, you know, reflecting on the way that you were brought up and how that might be impacted the way that you were mostly with your parents interactively. So yes, so the Holy Grail, apparently, according to Alan Roberts, who's an adolescent psychiatrist, and has been practicing with families over 30 years, the Holy Grail is providing united front his parents. Yeah, which isn't always that easy. And the key things are things like you know, as we said, it's discipline. The difficulty is when somebody starts hogging one side of the parenting, so it's the good cop, bad cop. So one person is the discipline person, and the other person is the fun person. So this is a very, very common set up in a household. And it does cause friction whether people are being honest about the friction or not. The bad cop probably doesn't want to be the bad cop all the time. And the good cops probably quite enjoying being a good cop, but might be looking the bad cop thinking Yes. And so for example, one woman said, My husband is very harsh about schoolwork discipline and and he thinks that I'm too lacks. And he gets really annoyed with me because he thinks that I'm too soft and kind. And he said, she said, the thing is, I don't disagree with some of the things he thinks, but he's left me no room. Yeah, because he's the person that's doing so much of it, I feel there needs to be some balance.

Susie Asli: 10:26

Yeah. And that's the key to all of it isn't it's the communication because I actually I think kids are really able to, to differentiate, maybe not so much when they're little. And it's really important that it's united. But by the time they get to be teenagers, they've you know, they're recognizing that we're human beings, people, and we have our own opinions about stuff. And, and I think they can navigate quite well when parents give different rules, especially if maybe they don't live in the same house. But even if they live in the same house, you know, there are different rules on mom does that dad does that? I think they can they they're really quite good at navigating that. But it depends how it's done and what it's done about, I guess. But if it's done in a, in a, you know, really undramatic calm way, this is I just have a different opinion. And this is how I roll and that's how that rolls and you know, that's fine with me, then it's okay. But if there's disagreement and friction on it, then I think that's really difficult for the teams, because that's a whole different ballgame. I love that. It's

Rachel Richards: 11:20

about respect, isn't it? It's about okay, it's okay. We don't agree. Yeah. And actually, there's one of the psychologists Laura Marsh, AK, who said, actually, it's a good thing in some way to be a little bit inconsistent, because life is like that. So if you can show to your teens that, you know, there isn't an obvious only way, one way of doing this, and that we can have discussions about it, when it falls apart is when it's disrespectful.

Susie Asli: 11:44

Yeah. And if they can, you know, they can witness you having a discussion with each other going, oh, you know, I don't agree with you on that. Why do you think that and let's have a look at it, and let's be flexible, and maybe negotiate? What an amazing learning platform teenager to watch and see how do you do that. But if it's done in a sort of a passive aggressive, you're wrong. And I'm right, isn't it? Yeah, exactly. Then the other team will probably think is, oh, there's some nice leverage there. I'm just gonna ask when dad's gone out the room or when mom's got? You know, maybe not the best way?

Rachel Richards: 12:14

No, exactly. And they are very good at spotting these things. And the big the big stress points tend to be so as we said, it's rulemaking. And the problem with it is that if you set a rule, and your partner chooses a different rule or a non rule, then obviously they're going to go to the norm, or they're going to find the easiest thing for them. And a lack of consistency in that way is it leads to teens, then constantly pushing the boundaries. Because if you say, Here's my rule, and here's how it has to work, and then they find a way around it either by so they've done something wrong. You've said right, the thing that you're going to have to do now, here's what it's not punishment, but here's the consequence. And then, you know, and you say, it's a week of not using the PlayStation. And three days in, they've been so fantastic. You say, Oh, actually, you know, it's fine. Just have the PlayStation. Well, now you've what you've done is you've negotiated what the deal is, or if your partner then says, Actually, it's not, you know, I don't think it was that bad you use, what you've actually done is you've told them that there are rules, but they're completely up for grabs. So you just have to, you know, manipulate as much as you like, you know, they'll see how you do it. And then they'll work their way around it. And again, you can say, well, I'm teaching them good skills for life. You're also teaching them how to make your life hell. And it doesn't really make for consider, you know, an easy household, particularly when other people in the household are the children siblings are seeing this, because they're all watching every single you may not think they are but they are watching. And if they see one child getting away with something, they're totally, they're mopping that up, and it's all gonna come back.

Susie Asli: 13:59

I do. Yeah, I totally agree. And I really think this topic, as in most of the topics, we've covered it, but this one particularly maybe it really falls back to how we are as parents, it's not really about the kids now monitor, they navigate as they do, and you know, sometimes they're opportunistic and do whatever they need to do, but it's really about our communication skills with our with our partners, whether we live together or not, how do we manage that? And that is critical. And we have to again, try and be really adults and yes, and be really cool about it. Yes. And how we can have disagreements. We don't have to agree on everything. Goodness, no, no,

Rachel Richards: 14:35

we're not. We weren't, you weren't. I mean, I don't agree with my husband on quite a few things, and he knows. But the real stress points tend to be things like diagnoses of problems, like any kind of psychiatric diagnoses, learning disability, drug treatment, you know, when those decisions need to be made, it can be very, very difficult because one may say, I don't think our teenager needs drugs. The other may say yes, but I've back into this specialists who thinks they should Yes. And the only way you can test that, who's right is by doing maybe six months with one way of doing things in six months without, you know, you literally one of us going to have to say, Okay, well, I don't think that that's the way to do it. But let's try one way. And on the basis that if it's not working, then we do the other thing. Yes. You know, you kind of have to come in from an agreement. But the question is actually, then your own communication skills, isn't

Susie Asli: 15:26

it with your partner?

Rachel Richards: 15:27

Absolutely. So So coming back to the down to the crux of it. How do we do this? Because we've talked a lot about how do we do this? Now, Amy McCready is the founder of positive parenting solutions. And I've put a link to her website on the podcast notes, because she's got a fantastic piece about this. And actually, she's using a similar technique to the one we use in parent gym. When I was coaching, and I tell you now, it was life changing. It was really, really helpful for my relationship. We talk about parenting and how it will help the children but whatever, it actually helps you talk better with your partner, which helps the children which helps children? Yes, so number one, find common ground any common ground. So you think you think and when we don't agree on this? Alright, well, let's find something that we both agree on. Yeah. You know, and be be honest about the good things that they do. Like the fact that they're encouraging they play with the kids, whatever they do, say, I love that you do this. Yeah. It's that's a bit of a shit sandwich thing, but it is, it's kind of okay, let's start off with the positives about the person with that actually does make a difference. It really does make a difference if people notice it, people know. It, people. I mean, honestly, even now, if somebody says something positive to me, I'm still like, oh, and then then the hell comes afterwards. But you know, it's as long as it's as long as it's sincere, it's meaningful, and it really makes a difference. So, start with that, then explore the underlying reasons why you disagree. And what you need to do is you need to say, okay, my parenting decisions. So I don't agree with the bedtime that you've chosen. I think the kids should be up later. I think they should be allowed to do what they want. This is ridiculous. Yeah. Okay. So then sit down and say, right, so how was it your home? When you were a teenager? You know, where your parents really strict about it? Were you allowed to just run? Right? How did that work? Okay, it was different for me. And, you know, try and pick apart? Where does this come from this concept that you think they should stay up all night? And the other person saying, you know, they really need to be in bed by this time.

Susie Asli: 17:33

Yeah. And try and maybe try and get out of black and white thinking that, you know, right and wrong. You're wrong. I'm right. Because that's really unhelpful?

Rachel Richards: 17:40

Yeah. So it rather than just start this. That's really interesting. So where did that you know, where's your thinking come from? Just start picking your wager? Oh, and what else? And what else? You know, how does that make you feel when I say, I think it should be this way? And why?

Susie Asli: 17:57

Yeah, it's more respectful. And then there's more opportunities to have a discussion and find a solution that works for everybody or trial, you try stuff out?

Rachel Richards: 18:05

Absolutely. So our first episode went into this a bit, you know, what parts of your childhood influence how you feel about your partner's parenting techniques, all those things, and start small, don't think you're going to fix it, if you've got it for you. You're at loggerheads with your partner, because it happens. And it might have been going on for a very long time. In fact, if you've got teenagers, it probably has. Yeah. So don't expect it to be fixed overnight. But agree to do this, and then to start small and say, okay, so what are the non negotiables in the way that we feel about our children? So there may be things like health and safety rules, you know, wearing bike helmets, for example, driving, driving, having drunk alcohol to you know, just things with things where you can say, okay, it's a definite non negotiable. And then areas of family value. When does the homework get done? How does respect? How is respect shown in the home just find something that you can both say, actually, I really think that's, we're happy with that. We both agree.

Susie Asli: 19:05

Yeah. And picking your battles, though. Not everything is worth dying over. Exactly. In fact, most things aren't. Well, most,

Rachel Richards: 19:12

most things aren't so. And actually, if you think if they feel strongly about something, and you're quiet, you can trade and say, Actually, I'll give you you know, that's okay. I'm not that bothered. But this thing really matters to me. And here's why I've thought about it. And here's why. And I think it's the expression of why that's the most important thing because when I explained to my husband wife thinks something, he often goes our can consider time

Susie Asli: 19:35

and when you discuss stuff is super important, like don't discuss when you've just fallen out.

Rachel Richards: 19:42

By the way, your parenting sucks, or you've just

Susie Asli: 19:45

had an argument with a teen and you've, you've realized, yes, there's a conflict of information going on in the home and you've just realized that this isn't this may be really annoying, then you just wait so with it, and

Rachel Richards: 19:56

I love that point, because that's really the time when it would flare up. way where the team has been a complete nightmare. And then you, you you've had a screaming match with the team and then you turn to the partner. You know, that's not the, that's not the time very good point. And

Susie Asli: 20:11

also what's going on in your relationship in general, because I know for myself, if I'm, you know, just in our home, like the four of us, so the me and the kids, like, if I'm, everything's really cool, and everyone's happy, then we, you know, the things that we disagree on, they don't really seem very important. But if there's other stuff going on, or there's, you know, it could be work, it could be a million different things, then the little nitty gritty things suddenly are really big. Yes,

Rachel Richards: 20:37

we talked about this earlier, because you have had a tree come down. And you were saying I haven't been coping well, but we were talking about how it's the micro stressors throughout a day that can add up to you not coping with something that actually it shouldn't be that big a deal. But it's because of all the little things during the day, you've had to deal with it. Really? Yeah,

Susie Asli: 20:56

yeah. And that's where awareness kicks in that we've talked about so many times, because I like you said, I had some stuff this morning. They were all quite minor things, quite annoying things but minor things and I was just I was about to sit down and, and reground myself, because I know how to do that, you know, how do I get back to feeling good again, and feeling imbalance. And then I looked out the window and lightning had struck a very large willow tree in our garden, and I was completely killed it. So I didn't get that opportunity. But that's. So that became an addition rather than as an opportunity to sit and reground. But it's really important. We know how to work. Where is our balance point as parents as adults? Where How can we get back to feeling regulated? Where's our regulation point?

Rachel Richards: 21:42

And try to have those discussions when you're feeling regulated? Yeah. And that's one of the points is actually pick a time, a regular time. If you've been having friction, say, You know what, we're going to do these things. And then why don't we try and do a kind of weekly, bi weekly, sit down and chat and say, Hey, where are we now? How are we feeling about this? Is it working? And

Susie Asli: 22:03

maybe use a timer, if you're talking to a boy, like I do.

Rachel Richards: 22:09

And then thinking long term? So the step four in this whole program is just actually, you've talked about starting small, we've talked about picking things, exploring reasons why you've got problems with each other anyway. But think long term about what you're trying to achieve? Because you have a teenager here, what attributes do you hope your children will possess when they can become adults? So then we're not talking about nitty gritty like that, that's really we're not we're not saying I think they should do this, they should do that, actually. So if we want them to be this way, if we want to be them to be responsible adults, how important is it for them to be getting that early night's sleep? Or if we want them to be compassionate people? How you know, so just look for some key words that you both agree on? And then say, okay, so how do these various things we have in place feed into making that happen?

Susie Asli: 23:03

Yeah, I think often the conflicts is can be not always, but some of the conflicts can be, you know, how much freedom should our teenagers have? You know, how much are you letting go? How much are you holding on? And that can be really difficult, because that ties in with our own all of our own stuff, absolutely fears, our own worries, our own thoughts? If

Rachel Richards: 23:19

and if you break down, okay, so I'm going to give them more freedom. What What am I trying to get from that? What are they trying to what am I trying to give them? And if you can, because then that helps you to express better? what the issues are?

Susie Asli: 23:32

Yes, yeah. And it as you say, like a long term picture. So if you're letting them choose when they go to bed, for example, which I think most teenagers would be doing, you know, they might be tired tomorrow, that's a short term thing. Whereas in the long term, maybe you're teaching them to manage their time, or maybe that particular child can't, you know, whatever the particular situation is, yeah, the short and the long term difference,

Rachel Richards: 23:55

and don't disagree in front of your teenager, if you can help it. So coming back to what we said earlier, yes, you can sit there and say, Oh, that's interesting that you see it that way, I see it slightly differently. And you can have a respectful conversation in front of them. Because this is a good way of unpacking how you come to some resolution. And you know, if you can do that, if you can't do that, don't Yeah, so you need a nonverbal signal that says, timeout. Yeah. So that you just park that issue, talk about it at some other point. Come back to it later. And you need to have agreed that so once someone shows that signal, it's great. We're just gonna stop there. That's really important

Susie Asli: 24:38

because you can't have a respectful way can't use Yeah, I hear what you're saying. And I completely disagree with you and super respectful. Yes. But if it isn't, then yeah, no, don't. Yes,

Rachel Richards: 24:47

yes. And then really, really don't. Don't shy away from conflict in the sense that I was listening to a podcast recently where they were talking about how Gen Zed really struggles with conflict and you There's more of a tendency to just wait, I'm not getting paid enough, I'll just hand in my notice rather than going in and saying, right, so I've got this, this, this experience, how do I get to the point where you will give me a raise? Right? And it's really, really important that we're teaching our kids that they can have these conversations, they can be difficult, but not to think that it's the end of the world when you have to have one of those conversations.

Susie Asli: 25:22

My eldest has got a bit smart on that he'll, I've noticed recently he'll, I'll ask him to do something, that maybe a year ago, he'd have kicked off about. And now he just goes, Oh, yeah, of course. No problem. And then

Rachel Richards: 25:35

you think, Oh, I love Oh, right. Yeah, definitely. Very smart. So avoiding the good cop, bad cop, you know, avoiding saying so. You know, your when your dad gets home, he's gonna be furious. You know, come on, let's not do that. That's really old fashioned parenting. But it's also it's not fair. No, it's not fair getting one person to do those tricky things. Again, because let's not pigeon weed. Nobody wants to be pigeonholed.

Susie Asli: 26:04

No, no. And if you're the only parent, then you have to see both, which really sucks.

Rachel Richards: 26:08

I know, I can't imagine. I mean, I've never been in that. And that's what that's what being a grandparent is. I keep saying to my kids, you know, it sucks being a parent, because I've got to do take all of this stuff seriously, but you wait, you know, when you've got children, you're gonna hate me, because I am gonna spoil them so much. Conversation. Exactly, that's got to be the fun about it. And then you know, committing to the consistent communication, right, we're going to have a, you know, let's have a time when we check in regular time when we check in. And if none of this is working, and it's still a real like, one of the your partner's not prepared to sit down and go through this process, finds they're really struggling with communicating about how they feeling about what's happened, maybe they had a childhood that they don't, they're finding very hard to talk about. That's the time to go and seek some support. Because the truth is, when we do seek support is not a sign of failure, it's a sign that if you can get someone to get you together and give you hold your hand while you walk through this process. Some people need it.

Susie Asli: 27:15

Yeah. And sadly, we still see that kind of help with whether it's therapy, or just a sort of sort of, I don't know, help, like a meeting with somebody who's an expert in it, family help, we still sometimes see that as you know, a bit taboo and a bit of a Oh, that must mean that I've really messed up and it's noises, it should be available to everybody. Because there are people who know how to help.

Rachel Richards: 27:37

Yes, and accepting that, if you've got one culture in your background, and you've got another culture in your background, sometimes it's very, very hard to see beyond, you know, what's coming out emotionally, and you just need someone to get you over that fence. And

Susie Asli: 27:50

a professional is an expert in communication and can just help both sides have have what they need to say on the table. And then it's really normally quite easy to resolve. But if you don't have it on the table, you can't, it's

Rachel Richards: 28:01

impossible to resolve. So I hope that helps. We all disagree with our partners at some point. It's human to view things differently. It's all about finding a way to communicate so that you aren't undermining each other. That's the That's with all of this. It's all about just what am i How am I saying this in a way that supporting the process of trying to find a resolution? Yeah,

Susie Asli: 28:23

and it's really tempting, especially if you are not together if you are living in separate homes, and there's a reason why you're not in the same home. I'm sure there's it can be really tempting if you disagree on some fundamentals to for that to be a really big, you know, points of resentment. And that's really unhelpful for the kids. And it's probably, it's probably going to mean that there's two homes, there's two cultures are very different. And there are different rules. And maybe that's just how it is. But if you can keep the respect that's, that's really cool.

Rachel Richards: 28:54

And so these points that I went through to what extent do you think when you have got two homes that probably will be run in different ways that can help?

Susie Asli: 29:05

Yeah, I mean, I say to my kids, if they've said all, you know, why do I have to do that there? And no, or dad lets us do that. Or, you know, whatever it is, it can go both ways. And we don't have a conversation about these things. Sadly, I wish we did. But we don't. And I'm sure a lot of people are in that boat. I always say I don't know, the reason I don't know why. But I'm sure I'm sure there's a good reason for it. I don't know what it is. But trying to keep this sort of underlying it's that's also okay. And I don't agree with it. I think they men seem to manage both. There are I mean, I try and see the silver linings in these things. Because you know, it does teach them we if we go back to culture, it does teach them that there are different ways of living. And as long as it can be done in a way that isn't super confusing. I think it's actually can be can be a good left, because otherwise we just go through our childhood and early, early adulthood thinking there's only one way to live and then panicking when not everyone does what we do.

Rachel Richards: 30:08

That's such a good point. It's such a good point. If you found our podcasts useful, do us a favor, click subscribe or even review us and tell your friends. Our website now has everything in one place. So feel free to rummage around there and message us with any of your questions or tips for topics to cover. You can also reach us via our Facebook group, or Instagram, we read everything. Now Suzy, you've had one son go through the exam process during COVID. And he was marked by his school teachers, I think on the basis of what they thought he could attain, if he were to have SAT exams. He did

Susie Asli: 30:43

do exams in his particular school, but they were internal. Okay. Subjects were smaller than normal. I think the syllabuses were cut out he did do he did sit exams, but they were marked by teachers. Yes.

Rachel Richards: 30:53

So I think I mentioned that just because we sort of have kind of gotten COVID, but it's actually still really having an impact on our teenagers. And he's in his second year of a levels. Now, a levels are the ones you do before you go to university. And so obviously, it's an important year for university applications, and for deciding what he wants to do with the rest of his life. How is that going? How was that felt?

Susie Asli: 31:17

That's quite topical in our home in a moment. And because he's in this and he wouldn't mind me saying this so fast. In his first year, he went to a Sixth Form College, he's out of Sixth Form College. And he did really well in his GCSEs, on very little work, which was very fortunate for him. But he's done. The classic and we even really spoke about it, you know, you found that easy, make sure you don't just do nothing for your sixth one, because it's going to be harder. And he for different reasons he didn't hasn't done as well as, as he hoped he would. So he's now got what we would call predicted grades, which is what he can use to apply to university, and then not as high as he would have liked. And his college has been, we say not very flexible. So that was a whole different story. So I'm really sitting in that at the moment. I say I because I think I'm probably more annoyed about it. And he is. And it's really made me think about the whole system the whole way we look at this time of our teenagers lives. And, and I have to and I'm really practicing with it actually, which even today the idea of what is my stuff? When I get triggered in this? What's my fear of what's going to? What's he going to do? What's he going to, you know, who's going to be when he's finished school? And what's his

Rachel Richards: 32:38

and I think your fear is the most important thing.

Susie Asli: 32:42

It's so important that we look at that, because because so much of it is such nonsense. And going back to you know, the culture what's, what do we think is important? Because his his choices now are limited. And, and I have totally come to the you know, the understanding that he's going to be absolutely fine. Absolutely fine. And maybe he'll go a different route, I have no idea what will happen. But I think what triggers are some triggers us as human beings is we don't like uncertainty. And we don't we don't like not knowing love, especially our own kids. And we have this idea that if we can, if we can just just make sure that they're you know, go off on the right path and at a success, whatever on Earth, we mean by that. Then we can breathe again. And if you're a newbie, okay, so if they say, oh, I want to be I don't know, I don't know, I'm just thinking on top my head, a doctor or I know how to get them to be a doctor. We can we can follow that path. And and then it'll be alright. But for you know, we'll that's nonsense. You know, we wouldn't it be better to learn to live with uncertainty and live with the discomfort of uncertainty because we don't nobody knows at the age of 17. What they want to do? Well, very few do. And that's okay.

Rachel Richards: 33:56

That's okay. Yes. And I think that is a very important point that you're making about the fear. And I think it's both fear and pride parents wanting to be able to show that they've done this amazing job with their kids. You talked about this when we were talking about education and how, you know, if you are patting yourself on the back that your child has been getting x grades, what happens when they don't? Or what happens when they get to, you know, postgrads and they decide that they can't cope anymore. And they've you know, and then what does that make you? Yeah, just if they veer

Susie Asli: 34:28

off this really stupidly narrow paths that we've created that of being a good teenager, student, kids, whatever you want to call it, then if they veer off that then then we go, oh, we must have parented them badly. And we take it as badges. It's crazy.

Rachel Richards: 34:45

Now it was Gail, who asked us to talk about this. And so you know, I looked at the research and according to a report published by Dell Technologies and authored by the Institute for the Future, and a panel of 20 tech companies, and academic experts from around the world. 85% of the jobs that will exist in 2030 haven't been invented yet. That's amazing. I mean, I'm not sure how they came up with that number. But it's that's mind boggling. And but it's not, it's not completely inaccurate. I mean, it's not. So I read a fascinating book called thank you for being late, which was so real think piece about this generation and this this world we're living in. And he talks a lot about the age of acceleration and how things are just keep getting faster. The turnaround time for, you know, getting a smaller TV that has does that does more is it speed, it's sped up and it keeps speeding up. And these things, things are changing really, really rapidly. And our education system is creaking. It doesn't count. Yes, it's just but you know, we don't really know how to make it better. So we just keep going with what we're doing. And the truth is, we have, you know, the liberal arts education is sort of there to help our kids, figure them figure out what they're good at, and what they can do well, and I keep saying to my kids, what you really need to learn is how to work hard. And you know, what, whatever it is you're working hard at is, is slightly less than less material than the fact that you're prepared to really apply yourself and get through problems, because it's problem solver. Resilience is resilience. It's problem solving, how do I go from and, you know, again, looking at things that have happened in the past, may not be that instructive. But just take my husband who got into Oxford, read maths, but then panicked and said, I don't think I'll hit a wall. So read law, because he thought I'd like to be a barrister. And then realize that he hates the law, it's boring, and doesn't want to be a barrister. And then, you know, came out of University and did something completely different. And the point being that we can get a training that looks superficially, very, you know, that like, so he could have been going down that track to be a barrister. But at any point in your education or in your life, you may realize because you started to really think about who you are you met new people, you've had more experience. You think, oh, actually, no, this is who I am,

Susie Asli: 37:21

I'm trying to take away the bullshit stress, which I would define as the unnecessary stress, the stress that just makes, you know, makes them fearful and worried that they're not going to be good enough that they're going to fail, which is never helpful for anybody. But on the other hand, I was trying to explain, don't just do nothing, because if you just stay in your comfort zone and not work and go, Well, I'm not going to stress. That's dull, and you know, everything interesting is on the other side of our comfort zone. But just getting that balance, because we don't want to say right, you have to work really hard, whatever the price and you know, encourage them to be burnt out and when they're 25. Find what find what makes you tick, what what do you like doing? And don't worry if you're not, don't worry if you're not super good in school, because that only judges a really narrow way of thing. No.

Rachel Richards: 38:10

And I My friend has set up a business and she said, Look at me. I mean, you don't need a degree to do this at all.

Susie Asli: 38:15

Logical science, you know, thinking is valued, and all the other things aren't really valued.

Rachel Richards: 38:20

And you know, when you look at my bonus daughter she did GCSE is she was a bit lackluster about studying. And then she had met a friend who, who she became a really great friend who was Russian and then decided to take a Russian a level, she was lucky enough to be in a school where she learned it, then ended up doing a Russian degree. But the whole time we kept saying so what are you going to do with it? Yeah, because we repeat seeing people coming out of the course who just weren't getting jobs. And she followed her network, she talked to lots of people found a job that really isn't advertised and something that really made her heart sing. And now she's flying, really flying. And that's because she just followed her passions. Now, obviously, not everything is going to work out easily. But when do you judge somebody, you know, what, what is it when they're 20? Or is it when they're 30? When are you successful? You know, the point is we we evolve as we go on through life. So if we

Susie Asli: 39:17

can feel that we're in alignment with who we are, and maybe ask different questions like, you know, what, what kind of personality? Do you like being with people who like being with animals? Are you a nurturer? Do you like teaching? Are you a thinker? Do you like new ideas? It's kind of encouraging them to think about themselves in that way rather than Are you good at physics or yesterday? Are you good at math?

Rachel Richards: 39:39

So it's okay. They're really interested in that. But we need to be prepared to teach our kids to face uncertainty Yeah. And be able to cope with it because as we know, with lockdown and COVID and life can be very uncertain.

Susie Asli: 39:51

And that's mainly I would think, and I'm not talking from any research, as our own uncertainty which we feed to because I'm not sure that the kids are really worrying about that until we tell them

Rachel Richards: 40:03

until we tell them yes, exactly. And then they might be doing really well. And then you start saying, Well, what career are you going to have? And both my kids at certain points have said, so I just don't know what I'm going to do. So what's the point? I need to know? And I keep trying to say to them, can we not worry about that? Just focus on what interests you in the classroom? Absolutely. So how do we talk to our teens about their careers? So coming on to Gail's question, and we how do we talk to them? So the real conversations about this really need to start before the crunch point. So when it's all getting a bit fraught, and they're trying to choose, it's harder? Yeah, because it's more stressful. So we need to get into a habit of having just flexible conversations about, you know, so what are they used to do this in geography? What are they still doing that now? Just talking about the classes? What subjects they're studying? And then just seeing when they face lights up? Are they are they just going through? Or are they going oh, yeah, it's this and this anything? Okay. That's interesting. Yeah. And those, those things will tell you what type of teenager you have. So once you see that they're animated about something, you can then say, Oh, and you can start following that, to just get them to open up a bit more. So you can do it in a relaxed way. Are your is your teenager a process driven person? Or do they like big picture strategic things, you know, these are things that we really get to think about. And I was talking to my husband about this last night and saying, you know, if you one test is you can just give a phone to a teenager and say, so what would you do with this? And I think the majority probably might go on Tik Tok. You know, they might make a phone call. Yeah, they might. They don't call them anymore. But you know, it'd be nice if they did, but some people are communicators. They might take the phone apart. Yes, you know, people, when you look at something, there's not one way of looking at it. And so a lot of people that or they might want to design a game on it, or they might want to game on it. Or, you know, you may assume what you would do with beautiful and creative. Exactly, they might have been designing things. So you may know what you would do with that. But that's not necessarily what another person would want to do. So what are we dealing with here? Are they a very sort of close technical person? Do they like the nitty gritty of things? You know, I looked at I looked at the other day, when I was watching Big, big vape that I keep talking about. And there's a lady there who basically was, she's in a lab, and she's researching what's happening. And this happens with drug labs and things and they spend all day researching this. And I just think, can you imagine being in lab all day long, just, you know, and I couldn't, I could just couldn't do that. exciting, exciting, or maybe just something that they you know, they enjoy the process. And, you know, that would just to be torture for me. So some people are really communication driven some and and you may not find that straightaway. So my bonus daughter's friend, I think he studied physics as a degree, very smart boy came out and said, I think I like advertising, did a post grad in advertising. And now he is working all hours he can because everybody, he's so so good at what he does, the people in the agency are always asking for

Susie Asli: 43:27

him, and our kids are gonna have, they're gonna have different careers, they're not just gonna have different jobs, they're gonna have different careers, it's going to be totally different. So his idea that he needs to find out what they want to do is, is actually utterly

Rachel Richards: 43:41

crazy. Yes. So teaching them how to problem solve, how to be deal with with flexibility, how to make communications with people, because very often, when you talk to someone you think, Oh, that's a job. Yeah. And it might be a job that you're interested in, take their point, I keep saying to my kids, if you meet someone that interesting, get the phone number. You know, you're good at connecting. That's

Susie Asli: 44:03

brilliant. But I love that I

Rachel Richards: 44:05

think you know, and you we can now with the social media that we've got, we can go on Instagram, I talked to people who have gotten designs I've never talked to designer in my life. And we now can connect and in ways that was impossible before so our teenagers have the opportunity to peer over the fence into different careers far more readily than they useful.

Susie Asli: 44:27

And we can feed back to our kids, you know, what we notice, but without, you know, without pigeonholing I think that has to be done really carefully because, you know, if you're if mom says I'm like this, then suddenly that becomes a label and we don't want to do that. But I'm just really gently sort of I'm I had a conversation with my daughter was one of those, you know, lying in bed late at night chatting with the lights off. And she said, Oh, I don't know why, what I want to do or what I like and we talked about a bit and I said do you want me to share with you what I see you being good at or what I what I notice. Oh yeah. I know, and I did. And it's, she's very, you know, relational and very sort of nurturing like. And so it's like you she's amazing with our pets. Like she even goes with, you know, she, she times how long she pets, and sometimes because it's not fair otherwise, you know, I'm not like that. But she's, you know, she's really kind and she's great with kids, she's great, you know, those kinds of things, which are not valued in the school system, you know, maybe it will be a comment at the end of the year or something, but it's not a it's not seen as any, as seen as being worthwhile. And that was a really lovely conversation. And then it made her think, oh, yeah, and I also like that, and I also like that, and then we just left it, like, just a nice conversation, but it's feeding back is mirroring lemons.

Rachel Richards: 45:47

And slowly getting them to think about those things and get them to see the good in themselves, yes, so that they can start focusing on what's interesting for them. And when it comes to so there's a lady called Tamara Stevens who's a licensed psychological associate, and she has a sort of strategy. So she says, instead of feeling locked into making a lifelong choice, the thing to do is to be looking at what the day to day tasks in certain jobs might be like, because once you start picking apart a job, yes, you'll have a much clearer understanding of whether it feels like something you'd like to do. Yeah. And so one of my daughters did say, I quite like looking looks great to be a barrister. So I took her along to one of our high courts. And she watched a murder trial. And I explained to her the difference between that type of a criminal barrister and a barrister, they may focus on tax or whatever. And I said, that's just the tiny bit of their day. And here are the other things that they might be doing. Does that sound like something interesting, and you can start sort of picking apart the different things that people do? But you may not know, that's a

Susie Asli: 46:56

really good advice? Because you know, that of course, there's always going to be things with jobs that you don't like and you prefer, but if the bulk of it sounds amazing, that's good. If but then if the bulk of it sounds actually not what you thought, then that's good to know. Yeah,

Rachel Richards: 47:07

rather than following down a track that doesn't, so it's just about sort of, I suppose, in a way, it's about putting them, you know, giving them an app, putting them into situations where they might see jobs. So any adults that you know, the you know, what is what do you do? What is your day look like? How does this feel? So that they can then start trying to picture it and not picture them being in that job? picture them? That type of work? Is that type of work appealing? Yeah.

Susie Asli: 47:35

Brilliant, and encourage them to sort of really find out who they are. Yeah, what makes them tick, because then it's an awful lot easier. If you're in alignment with who you are, then then it's much clearer.

Rachel Richards: 47:47

Yes, and then the extracurriculars? Who so I know that there's an element of picking extracurriculars so that they look good on the CV. And I, you know, I'm not going to say that people are wrong to do that. But I just think what a waste of life when your, your, your teenager wants to try something. And you know, there's another thing that might look better on the CV, or your longtime alive, why not? Why not encourage them to find, you know, follow the things that they find interesting, because you don't know whether that thing might be the thing that then sparks the joy for them for the rest of their life? So in a way, we have to trust our kids to go okay, this is the thing that really matters to me that just let them follow it as

Susie Asli: 48:29

a big part of unschooling, isn't it a completely different tack? But you know, let the kids the kids know, you just have to give them the space to find out.

Rachel Richards: 48:36

Yeah, yeah. And I've even contacted people on LinkedIn. I've messaged them on Twitter, and you know, just little things. So I see someone on Twitter, and I thought their performance was great, or their book was great or anything, and I just say, I loved this, thank you so much. And sometimes you

Susie Asli: 48:52

get people back. So lovely. I don't do

Rachel Richards: 48:54

that. You know, we don't get enough feedback. Tell people often enough, when we appreciate something, and we never know, because if you you know, I'm telling my kids be more vocal, you see something good feedback to them. And you may create a connection there that then because it obviously resonated with you will, you know, move down that line,

Susie Asli: 49:15

at the very least you're sending out really good karma into the world.

Rachel Richards: 49:18

Exactly. Nothing wrong with that, hey, so you know, to stop stress when when you get into those really important points where they've got to make decisions, have a plan a have a plan B, don't don't just stick with one thing. They the signs that they're suffering stress or headaches, poor sleep, changes in eating habits, always being tired, lacking energy or motivations. I'm seeing parents saying, oh, you know, my kid that just can't be bothered to get out of bed. They're not and that's a sign that they're stressed and they're overwhelmed. And they're feeling like they just don't know. Yeah, they just got to that point where that

Susie Asli: 49:50

because, ya know, depends on what they're doing and whether they if they need to be up and they're not assisting. Yeah,

Rachel Richards: 49:57

well, I It's, for example, I was talking to relation who said, it's when they've left that sort of main school, that the problems start? Because, you know, she said that, that going from school to university or whatever she said that was massive leap. And that's where she found the real problem started because it was gone. Yeah. It just keeps going, guys. The structure is gone. Yes. And so and and if they're finding it hard, then they may just want to stay in bed, because actually, it's a nicer place to be.

Susie Asli: 50:28

Or they just haven't looked at down long picture. I actually asked my eldest who's going into his final school year, you know, and he's at college where this structure is very fluid, which is, it's been good and bad. And I said, Well, you know, what, sort of going into your final year? What sort of support would you like, from me? You're getting older, you'll be going away next year. And he was like, Well, I'm going away probably next year. So if you can do as much as possible this year, because I'm gonna have to do it all myself next year. Doesn't quite expect. I was thinking we could kind of a little bit of support. I wasn't talking about really dependent. I want to do that myself. I don't know, can you just do it all? That's class, he's not going to get

Rachel Richards: 51:13

it. So I think just summing it up, it's about making your teenager feel more comfortable with uncertainty, and making yourself feel more comfortable with uncertainty

Susie Asli: 51:27

first step yourself. Yes. How Why is it such a big deal for you that your kid you know what your kid is going to do? Yeah. And from fear of failure as well that you know, our kids are going to fail, and that is part of life. And if they fail, they learn from that to do it's important learning.

Rachel Richards: 51:43

So in our next episode, we'll tackle an anonymous question. How do you handle dress codes with your teenage daughter? The fashion trends these days seem to be as naked as possible. Am I the only one that doesn't want my daughter to wear shirts the size of a bra? And shorts as a social? They look like underwear? No, you're not. The question is what do you do about it? Also, Sara has had to deal with a change in circumstances a housing crisis where she lives this meant she's had to downsize and it's impacted her teens. We'll look at ways in which she can discuss it with them and you know, just make it better. I don't know if you can make it better. But it's really relevant supporting them through that because I think the there's a cost of limb crisis around the world. So it's it's going to come up yeah, that's it for now. Don't forget to subscribe so that you don't miss an episode review us so that other people can find us more easily. Tell your friends and send us any questions that you have. We love these ones. Thank you so much. You can also reach Susie via her own website, which is Susie asleep mindfulness.co.uk. All the links are in the podcast notes. Until next time, goodbye. Goodbye for now.