19: Struggling with mom guilt? You're not alone. Don’t like your teenager's friends? Here’s how to approach it.

Rachel Richards: 0:02

Hello, I'm Rachel Richards former BBC correspondent parenting coach mother of two teenagers and two older stepdaughters.

Susie Asli: 0:09

Hello, I'm Susie Asli, mindfulness instructor and psychotherapist and mother of three teenagers two of them are twin.

Rachel Richards: 0:17

Susie today, it's quite accurate because we've moved into yet another room to get away from the dogs and the children. So it's it sounds a bit different. That's because we're in a bigger room.

Susie Asli: 0:28

We're not in the bathroom.

Rachel Richards: 0:29

We're not. We're not in the bathroom. Yeah, we're not in an auditorium. Anyway. So last episode, we talked about how teenagers can feel that their siblings have it better than them. And my daughter pointed out that I'd miss one of the things that she likes the most. I've always said to them, Look, it's not about the age, they'll say, oh, what age do I have to be to have this? And I say, that's not the point. The point is, are you mature enough? Are you? Are you ready for that freedom. And that will come at a different age. So I've said to them, I'm always happy to give you as much freedom as possible. So I'm looking to give you freedom. If I think you're ready, I'll let you do that thing. So whether whether it's going shopping on your own or public transport, if I think there's a problem and you're not, you're struggling with it, then obviously I'm going to rein in that freedom. And that you there's not a cliff that you fall off. And then you're now able to always do this forever. It's about you know, I will always be there to check to make sure that you're coping.

Susie Asli: 1:26

Yeah, I love that it's needs based then isn't it rather than automatic. You get this at this certain ages. What do they need at that moment isn't

Rachel Richards: 1:33

exactly what you were talking about last last time. And

Susie Asli: 1:36

I love that your daughter listened to your feedback. I

Rachel Richards: 1:40

think she's just checking to make sure I put the things in that she liked. Yeah, great. Now Natalie, who has a blended family messaged us to say that she really liked the episode on sibling rivalry, particularly the safe word? Yes. Susie, what do you think is our most popular episode?

Susie Asli: 1:57

Yeah, I don't know. I'm thinking maybe the one about anxiety? Yeah.

Rachel Richards: 2:05

Yeah, yes. Setting books, anxiety and setting rules that they'll follow. This is, obviously it's been a rising problem. And it's clearly something that parents need some guidance with. So I'm really glad that that's helping people. Well, I hope it is. I hope they're not just downloading. That was rubbish. That's possible. Yeah. Another one that's very popular is hard to motivate your teenager who isn't very academic, there was one other but we'll mention that later. Is there anything that's actually really changed things for you? Please let us know because it will help other parents if we can flag it up and say this specific thing is a game changer and

Susie Asli: 2:40

things that other people find helpful. It's good for us to know. Yeah,

Rachel Richards: 2:43

really help. So just message us at help at teenagers untangle.com or, you know, Facebook, Instagram, whatever your preferred means of contacting us. Now later in this episode, we'll look at what to do when you don't like your teenagers friends. But first, we've been asked by Claire to look at mum guilt. Now, it's a short phrase, but it's a big thing. What do we mean by mum guilt, it's that feeling you're not quite up to scratch and you're letting people down. And mums have to play so many roles cooking, cleaning, organizing, checking on homework, managing lots of diaries, being the emotional problem solver, and being feminine and beautiful. Now, unless a job is clearly allocated, it tends to be assumed that it's the mothers. So it becomes impossible to do anything quite as well as you'd like to.

Susie Asli: 3:31

I've been thinking about it and asking friends, and my partner today as well about it. And it's kind of blown my mind a bit. When I asked my my partner who is really hands on dad is an amazing dad. He was like, I don't know what that is. I called it parenting guilt. You know, mom guilt, parenting guilt. You know, we're talking about that today. What do you think about that kind of thing? And he just looked blankly at me. I don't know what I'm talking about. And he's, you know, really hands on that. Mind, and it's blown his mind.

Rachel Richards: 4:02

That's, you know, that's such an interesting one because it reflects everything that I've seen too. And the two things I'd like to bring up are one, which is Helena Morris's book, good time to be a girl. And she edited a very well known news program in the UK, and asked all the CEOs, and there were several male CEOs who came on the program. Each of them was asked, How do you? How do you deal with work life balance? How are you coping with having a family and your work? And they will just look blankly and said, We'll I don't know. And she said, Well, what do you mean? And they said, Well, I've never been asked that question, which is really, it's so disappointing. And it's actually really important. And she said, The upsetting thing was that they'd never none of them mentioned their wives who were managing all this enormous burden and the stress involved with doing the other thing Yeah, they were just proudly talking about Things that they were managing, which is great. But let's be a bit more honest about what's really going on here and how they're managing to have a family. And the other thing that struck me this week was that I was reading the BBC website, as I do, because a former BBC journalist, and there was a sports section. And there was a little article that was talking about the trials of being a professional footballer, and a parent. Guess who they were talking about? It was a female professional for Britain, they had a photo of her holding her baby. And I just I really upset me because I just thought, well, hang on a second. I I guarantee I'd never read an article about how a male professional footballer and it copes with having a young child.

Susie Asli: 5:44

Yeah. And it's not the point. Talk about the mother doing it. It's we need it needs to be equal. Yeah. Well,

Rachel Richards: 5:49

the point is, you know, she's good at her job. Yeah. Why is this? Why are we now bringing the parenting in? Or should we just be chipped? Can we? So I actually wrote to the BBC and said, Could you please do an article for me about how the men cope with this? Because surely, it's important, right?

Susie Asli: 6:05

Yeah, it's really

Rachel Richards: 6:06

so I think that highlights the fact that this actually I put my head on the block and say, it is actually mum guilt. I said parent guilt last week thinking we didn't want to list No, didn't miss people. But the truth is, it's the women who are bearing the majority of

Susie Asli: 6:21

it. Yeah. And I really didn't realize I was thinking you mum guilt, we'll talk about, you know, ways to tackle it, what to do is from a, you know, that kind of perspective, but actually, it's maybe more interesting is that it only exists for women. Like, that's a massive generalization. I'm sure that, you know, we really interesting actually, to hear if there are some dads that out there that

Rachel Richards: 6:39

we would love to hear from you seriously. Very, very helpful, because we're not seeing it.

Susie Asli: 6:44

No. And it seems to be that the bar is set very differently for men, you know, anything that they do with kids, and this is also a massive generalization. But talking to you know, single dads as well, you know, that anything they do is is amazing, it's almost slightly patronizing, you know, well done for, you know, taking your child to the doctor, that's amazing. Whereas, you know, for women, it's in neglect. If you don't, you know, yeah, bar is so different still.

Rachel Richards: 7:10

And there's a motherhood myth. There's this sense that women are supposed to be naturally, constantly loving, never being angry, being ever attentive, you know, this is your role. So you should slip nicely into it, and you should be able to do it. Well, yes. And there's never this sense that it's going to be extremely challenging, because we were making compromises. Yeah,

Susie Asli: 7:33

the problem is, it's, it's just the women I think, we're talking about which has blown my mind.

Rachel Richards: 7:40

Yeah, I think it is just the way I don't think my husband's had any conversations with his friends about how they're coping with parents.

Susie Asli: 7:46

And also differences between I was talking to a couple of mom friends as well, it's, I've been a single parent for, since my mind were tiny. And I think that is also difference, you know, the guilt that I felt and still feel a bit a much more aware of it is was very tangible, you know, like, I only have two hands, I only have two legs, you know, when they were little, I've either had this sort of background noise the whole time, I'm not enough, I'm not enough and with that guilt, and then you can build up an awareness of that, and then tackle with it. But that still still exists, you know, when they're teenagers too.

Rachel Richards: 8:24

And I think it's corrosive, and it ends up with the mother trying to do too much and then losing herself. And I see a lot when it comes to the teenagers a lot of mothers saying, they're so invested in their children, because they're being forced down this sort of funnel for so long, that they then have no idea how to extricate themselves into cope when the children your teenagers are starting to push back. And they're, you know, they're found in their own lives. And, and they will they, they'll be trying to create their own boundaries, and they feel rejected. Yeah. And yet again, what am I doing wrong? Yes, you're not doing it. It's not you know, that your teenager is trying to drink trying out being an adult on their own.

Susie Asli: 9:04

Yeah. And psychologically, we know so much more about that, and we interested for, you know, which is amazing and brilliant. But, you know, we are heard, we're told all the time that, you know, as parents, what we do is, is really, really important, and can really change the course of our children's lives as you can go into adulthood. It's really important what we do, go on the flip side, if we don't do it, or we do it badly that we are ruining them somehow or you know, and there is an element of truth in that in of course, what we do makes a huge impact. And it's not our complete responsibility. And that's where the guilt comes in. And that's hard to get away from

Rachel Richards: 9:42

Sure. So coming back to guilt Brene Brown, you mentioned to for this definition, points out I mean, she's a shame and empathy researcher and just incredible on the subjects but she says there's a difference between shame and guilt. So shame means I am bad Add guilt means I've done something bad. So these are the mum guilt is to do with having done something or missing doing something that it's not it's not who you are. It's what you're doing wrong. Yeah,

Susie Asli: 10:15

I do think though it flips over into it and I think we call it mum guilt. But I think it's also mom shame. It's really important to know the difference because shame is, is your whole being I am fundamentally wrong. And guilt is I have done something wrong.

Rachel Richards: 10:30

And guilt rarely happens in isolation. It's something that happens between people, a research team led by Roy Baumeister, he was a PhD found that guilt actually strengthened social bonds and attachments. So it's, it's something that we're doing as a community to ourselves, you sort of live in a community and in a way, there's a positive use of guilt, because it sort of maintains connection to that group. Guilt is our conscience talking. So it's a signal to take a look at our part in our relationship with our teenager and, you know, how have we done what we should be doing?

Susie Asli: 11:02

Yeah, I guess the problem is when we get stuck in it, isn't it we get stuck in guilt, and then it turns into something more toxic? Yes. And it could a recognition that something is out of balance, or we've done something that we shouldn't have done an apology and move on.

Rachel Richards: 11:13

Yes. And it can also be a motivator. Yeah, it's something so you go okay, it's a motivator. If we identify it and say, Okay, I'm feeling guilty. What do I need to be doing? How can I change what's happening? And when it's not over done sharing our guilt to our teenagers and saying, Oh, I you know, I actually feel like I've really not quite lived up to this can make them feel better about your relationships and they can they feel that you're not doing it through simply not caring it's that you know, you're you're a fallible person yourself, and it makes them feel okay about being fallible, because we're all fallible

Susie Asli: 11:49

and teaches them how to apologize, etc. I think the classic one for you know, that kind of thing is when we shouted our kids, which everybody does, and that's a massive mum guilt flag as me we don't want to we don't want doesn't feel we men aren't supposed to shout. Yeah, women, for starters aren't supposed to shout. And we're definitely not supposed to shout at our kids. And it doesn't feel very nice either. But of course happens, you know, human. But the difference between the guilt and the shame, you know, the guilt, I've shouted that didn't feel nice. What can I do next time to put steps in place so that I've maybe don't shout or, or whatever steps you want to take. And shame would be I've shouted at my kids. So I'm, you know, I'm bad. I'm a bad person feels awful for ages. Yeah, really

Rachel Richards: 12:31

kind of three, which is not helping anybody, no, literally no one who's going to benefit. But if we're not aware of the difference, then it's really great distinction to make. And I think the negative uses of guilt that I discovered, as you know, criteria, there's X sort of can let you off the hook from making changes. So if you actually sit in the guilt, and you think, Oh, you feel bad enough about things, then you, it sort of you feel like you're doing something but you're not the kind of victim mentality. Yes, yes. It can be a way to punish ourselves. So you know, if we see ourselves as having been a terrible mother, we can at least have the decency to feel bad about

Susie Asli: 13:08

yourself. Yeah, that's so true.

Rachel Richards: 13:12

And it can be a poor substitute for feelings of self worth. Yes. You know, if you feel good about yourself, you're not going to be you feel guilty for long, what you're going to do is act on it to say, Oh, I feel like I should have done this. It's a little signal. Yes. And it is a little bit, it should be a little signal. I think what's happening with this motherhood myth is we end up I mean, you think about the things that women are responsible for, as mothers. So you know, we're in a society now, where a lot of people can't afford for one person to stay at home. So you'll have working mothers, you have the mothers who have to stay at home mothers who feel guilty about not working, you have the working mothers who feel guilty about working, you have the mothers who should have cooked a home cooked meal, but they didn't have time today, because they were carting people around. But by the way, they couldn't get to all the different functions. So you know, I mean, you name it, we, you know, constant, and then there's the, I'm going to go to bed really late, because it's the only way I get that little bit of time for myself. And then actually, you know, I'm going to read the book, and then you feel guilty, because you really should be getting a bit more sleep because you can be angry tomorrow because whatever. Yeah, it's constant. And so we are not helping ourselves, if we're suffering this way. So it's more that we've got to start looking at what's going on here. And how do we help fix this? So, tips. So swaras Angelou, who's the she's a social worker who looked into this, practicing self compassion. This is a wonderful one that you're so good at.

Susie Asli: 14:42

Yeah, I mean, self compassion is a sort of branch of of mindfulness. There is self compassion within mindfulness, but there's also a big movement. Kristin Neff is amazing with the self compassion element. And there are three parts to self compassion and practicing self compassion can be an absolute game changer. And it's, you know, kindness to yourself kindness, and then a recognition that we are human beings, you know, it's common humanity, it's, you're not the only mother feeling this you there are others out there which can be such a relief. And then mindfulness awareness, you know, basic awareness of what's going on. So that, you know, for example, just even recognizing that we feel guilt is, is step one, absolute, or recognizing anywhere, you get that little icky feeling. I was, like, an icky feeling of something, something's off balance, something's out of balance. And if we don't recognize any of that we're not aware. We're not tuned in and then we just going in autopilot. And, and I love that same thing.

Rachel Richards: 15:41

I love that point you made about all the mothers feeling this? Because actually, there's a lady called Lauren Smith, Brody, who wrote a piece called The fifth trimester. And it was, and it's basically the kind of, you know, for example, working mom, she did interviews, 100, in depth interviews, and a survey of 700 Working moms. And her point was, they all feel guilt. So she, what she was saying was that if she started to realize that if everybody, if everybody feels like they're not really succeeding at this, then it's false. Yes. Because somehow you're measuring yourself against something that's impossible.

Susie Asli: 16:19

Yes, I think that's so interesting, because it's, it's so true. And also the thing that's blown my mind by talking to people who, you know, maybe men that don't feel it is, then well, it's not a conscious choice. But it's, it's if there are people who are parenting and you know, parenting on their own as well, not feeling it, then we don't have to feel it. Then your true awareness, you know, varied on the one side, we've got all mums feeling it, so therefore, it can't be true. And then there's other people, you know, half the population, who aren't really, it's not a necessity. So how can we step out of it? What can we do to not feel it? Because it's not helpful?

Rachel Richards: 17:01

Yes. And staying on the question about, you know, the working environment, it actually made me stop and think having read what she'd said that, you know, when I was working, I'd be given a contract, I'd be given the hours, I'd be given the pay, and I would be reviewed regularly. And you know, there have been lots of jokes about this, you know, when you apply for the parenting job, and actually who's going to take it. And it's, but it's actually really, really important, because the difficulty is, particularly with a mum guilt, there is no proper evaluation of how, how am I doing in my job, you know, and this is actually something people really feel that they need. Now, if you're not going to get that from someone else, you need to do it for yourself, you need to give yourself a break and say, Actually, it's not not that bad.

Susie Asli: 17:46

No, internal validation is always better than external, anything, you're not relying on other people. And I think the problem can also be that because we don't get the validation that we need often, because it's culturally not a thing that we think of, we always think that we've sort of in deficit somehow that we're not measuring up to this stupid standard we've set that we then put it on to our kids, so then they become the measure for us success. What a great point. So we're like, oh, our kids have done, you know, the shit hit the fan for our kids somehow. And

Rachel Richards: 18:20

yes, you can say that you can say, I'm sure.

Susie Asli: 18:25

Anyway, but that, you know, stuff happens to all of us. And then and then you know, then I'm must be a bad parent. Or, on the other way, my kid is amazing, you know, doing really well in school or doing really well and something, ergo, I am a great parent, it's fantastic. And that is not the case.

Rachel Richards: 18:44

And actually, that's a such a great point, because I see a lot of groups, particularly online where people come in asking for help. And the response can vary from parents thinking that they're just an idiot for not being able to get this right. Yes to other parents going, Oh, I'm completely lost myself. I have no idea where I am. The real point is, she needs some support. Yeah, you know, this is not what you as soon as we start judging, what we're doing is we're not really helping. So actually, when you're with other mothers, for example, we need to recognize that this is a problem. And we need to think, am I adding to mom guilt by saying this thing? And can I and we can genuinely practicing compassion for other people in the community. And we're not saying don't flag up things that obviously are important, but it's the way you deliver the information and the way that you support someone who's struggling, and you say, Oh, well, I had that problem. Or I've seen people do this and maybe this would help you

Susie Asli: 19:43

It's such a relief. When you talk to somebody says I get you I understand

Rachel Richards: 19:47

put down the wagging finger doesn't need to be because they have their own peanut gallery going on and we don't need to add walking to the stuff that's been thrown in there stage

Susie Asli: 19:57

and the other problem with with them putting the validation on how your child is performing, if you want to call it that is, is then you, your child becomes the yardstick and that's using the toxic kid. Yeah, no. It's really common. I think, you know,

Rachel Richards: 20:12

I think that's really good point. Yeah. I mean, communicate and ask for help. And you know, I've done that where I've actually sat my husband down and said, so by the way, I feel terrible. I'm miserable. Here's why. And once I'd explained it to him, and I told him what I wanted total support. Yeah, amazing. So So I've often spoken to mothers who said, I've really just, I hope he does this for me. And I hope that, and I just say, Why? Why are you hoping? Yeah, why don't you just tell because of the culture we're in. So you know, you'll get the other parent man wandering around doing his thing. He thinks he's being helpful or supportive, but you just got to tell him? Yeah.

Susie Asli: 20:53

Or if that's not possible, or if you're on your own, or you have different circumstances, or you know, you're single sex parents, you know, whatever. There's so many different combinations of ways to have a family. Find your tribe, you know, I mean, women when women work, and a supportive, you know, we are amazing. Yeah. Like, it can be the most amazing, supportive community. And it's the, you know, the classic. When you're with a group of women or another women, you know, how do you feel afterwards? Do you feel supported? You feel connected? I love that. No, I feel judged, and I feel a bit rubbish. Well, then stop hanging out.

Rachel Richards: 21:31

Yeah. Find a new trial. Yeah, there will be

Susie Asli: 21:34

some cheerleaders. They really are. Yes.

Rachel Richards: 21:37

And that's, and that's kind of exactly letting go of expectations as well. It's just, you know, you're in a group, they're saying this about you? Well, you know, if that's unreasonable, and you can't change that that's not the right group.

Susie Asli: 21:47

Usually, when we're really judgy, about other people, it's based on fear. And that's not nice.

Rachel Richards: 21:53

And remember who you are beyond motherhood, because we very easily get sucked into this is like a complete life change when you go into being a parent. And it really was, for me, it was quite a car crash. And, and then you know, there's like before, and then there's like, afterwards, and you were much better at parenting before then you are afterwards. And you, when you get into this motherhood very often this mom guilt puts you down a track where your life is all about making sure these children just as good as they can possibly be. Because you feel like that's your job. And then the teenager, yeah, and they're suddenly off doing their own thing, and they're not really agreeing with you. And they actually don't want you to hug them. So you're getting all the hard bits of parenting, and none of the feedback and none of the love and you think what's happened, and your

Susie Asli: 22:37

whole identity was wrapped up in being a mother and being a good mother. And, you know, it feels really nice when they're connected, and little and you can, you know, it's more controlling, isn't it? And then suddenly, they don't want to be controlled anymore. And then it's like, well, what do I do all day? And it's the it's the, you know,

Rachel Richards: 22:54

it was my job now.

Susie Asli: 22:55

Yeah, it's kind of the classic TV. Yeah, well, you and your teacher, when you get teenagers, it's a part time job and full, full time availability. So we have to go out and get a life. But be available.

Rachel Richards: 23:12

Whenever they call, obviously, put everything and practicing gratitude. Often. This is your you can big on this. It's changed my life. He told when I was young, he taught this. So people do this.

Susie Asli: 23:22

Yeah, I mean, gratitude is a game changer. I love that you were taught so early on, it's beautiful. But when we practice gratitude, it releases the same chemicals in our brain that are in antidepressants. So any drugs, free drugs, it's not just a woowoo weird thing, it really is important. And it balances our negative bias that we will have. It's a rebalancing thing.

Rachel Richards: 23:45

Yes, I didn't think about that, because we negatively we always look out on the horizon for the damaging

Susie Asli: 23:50

thing that's going to kill us because we're still in survival mode. Otherwise, when we get stressed, because our brains are still wired as if we lived in caves. So gratitude also rebalances that. So what we can do is really simple. It's really easy. There's lots of ways of doing it. But the most simple way is, you know, ideally, when you're going to bed or on the dinner table, or in the morning, when you when you just take a moment, think of three things you're grateful for or one if there's any one, and then just sit with it for a moment feel where do you if you're using it in a mindful way, you know, I teach it to you, you think of the thing and then you think about the thing. And then you feel well, where does that show up in your body, and it probably will somehow it can be like a warm fuzzy feeling or a tingling or an impulse or something and it might not show up immediately. But it usually does, if you've practiced it for a while. And then just sit with it for a moment and then move on. And you can write it down. Some people like to have a gratitude journal, I just think of it. And that can be enough. And there's always something I mean, always always something and it could just be you know, even if you've had the worst day ever, you know, there's something to be grateful for the sun. The sun is setting now or I have water in my tap or I have hair on my head or you know something really, really simple and then you sit with it and then Naturally feels a bit better.

Rachel Richards: 25:01

Yeah, it's brilliant. And it certainly has changed my life. So yeah. And

Susie Asli: 25:06

also we think, you know, teenagers when they're struggling when there's something up and there will be something because that's life. Do the same thing about them UK that they're really struggling at the moment. But I don't know, it could be really basic like you they have two legs. They, they can see, you know, just something really and it does it a che haven't

Rachel Richards: 25:26

got a spider tattoo on their face.

Susie Asli: 25:31

Or yeah, that

Rachel Richards: 25:35

identify the sources of guilt? Yeah, I've done this. I actually was feeling utterly miserable, and thought, Why Why am I feeling I had the most amazing I'm so fortunate I have a wonderful husband, I have children who are healthy and list up. And then I realized, and it was it was one thing. And I just decided that I had to stop. And and it was the process was actually recognizing what that was. And then I then had a conversation with everyone in my immediate family and said, so here's what I'm doing. And here's why. And it's just to protect myself and everything else stays the same. Yeah. And by explaining it clearly, I helped everybody to embrace it. And they said, Okay, I understand that no problem. And then everybody, everybody just has a new paradigm. My life is so much better has

Susie Asli: 26:29

amazing. And that's again, back to the old chestnut of awareness isn't so if we were aware, you know, we'd maybe we don't even know what guilt feels like. So it's just sort of stopping and noticing, okay, all our feelings, all our emotions, and what does guilt feel like? So that when it shows up, we you notice it? And then it's only then we can get okay, what's the source of it? It's a little journey we have to go on. But if we're not aware, if we don't have any awareness, then it's hard to begin.

Rachel Richards: 26:55

Sometimes you just need to talk to a doctor, or get some proper advice from someone who really knows how to help.

Susie Asli: 27:01

Yeah, and often the source you unstuck. Yeah, the source is feelings. And I think particularly for women have this sort of underlying feeling of not being good enough. Not a welding either. Yeah, I'm not good enough, then you're kind of constantly looking out for signs that you're not good enough. And this is the negative bias. Yeah, you have the view, you know, what we look for we find that can be hard if it's very tied up with shame. Because then it's taboo, isn't it? So shame doesn't survive. If we talk about it, if we shame doesn't survive. If we if we talk about it in a safe space than it does, then it dissolves our interest. If we keep it in secret it festers?

Rachel Richards: 27:38

Yes, we're like that, have you been experiencing mon Gildan? Perhaps just being a bit less judgmental of each other would benefit us all? I don't know. The most useful thing I've learned recently is to use this curious thinking rather than judgmental thoughts. And we talked about that in one of our previous episodes where you, you know, as we become adults, we only notice things because we see a problem. So we try and fix the problems. And the curious thinking is okay, I'm feeling something what what do I think about this and not trying to judge it or, you know, make decisions about it, because often we're colored by our culture,

Susie Asli: 28:13

absolutely changes the tone. I love also the try and remind myself of, you know, don't let perfect be the enemy of good. Most of you know, most of what we do is good enough. Yeah. And we have this stupid, perfect bar that we're not even aware of. Sometimes it's just, it's just taken, you know, as a normal as a normal, we need to be this amazing as a mother, but actually, actually, nobody is.

Rachel Richards: 28:35

I've had that conversation just the other week with a mother where she was saying, you know, when you want your child to go to the best school, and I said, Sorry, what, what is the best school? And she said, Well, I'd say and I said no, really? I mean, seriously, let's have a, let's unpack this. What does that mean? Yeah. And this is the problem, because there's this sense that something's best something. And it's not it's not we're human beings, what's good for one person may not be good for another. It's so complicated. And

Susie Asli: 29:00

underlying that is this idea that there is a perfect and if we go for perfect, then that must be good enough, because that is perfect. Absolutely doesn't exist.

Rachel Richards: 29:10

Absolutely. We loved this suggestion about talking about mum guilt. It hadn't really occurred to me. And it's been quite a revelation, hasn't it? Do you keep your questions coming? Our email is helping teenagers on tangled.com. You can also reach us via our Facebook group or Instagram, we read everything. Now helping you to navigate friendship groups is one of our most popular downloads, and we talked about them earlier on. So this is a really big one for us. And of course, we're aware that we can't control who they make friends with as they get older, but you may still be worried about them getting into trouble or taking stupid risks. And it can be a bit of a tightrope between respecting their independence and wanting to make sure they're being you're there to give them good guidance. So well given that we can't choose our teens friends, and we will sometimes get a gun reaction, I think, Oh, I'm not sure about this person. What do we do?

Susie Asli: 30:05

Yeah, I think I think lots and lots of issues, it really depends on your relationship with your child. Like, if you have a good relationship, and you're used to discussing things, then they might be open. And the way you say as well, you know, like, I've noticed your friend blah, blah, blah, what do you think about them? What do you you know, what do you like about them? Why do you like hanging out with them and have a conversation and you can just drop in? You know, I've noticed that what do you think so that it's a dialogue? Whereas if you have a relationship that isn't open, and you know, the connection, isn't there at the moment, it might be temporary, then they're just gonna, they might just go well stuff you I'm gonna best friends with them.

Rachel Richards: 30:45

Yeah, that's the problem. As soon as you flagged up the you don't like that. Yeah. And that's, you know, there are certain teams that will deliberately target that relationship, because they want to make a point. So this does happen. I love your point about asking. I mean, you know, rather than going I don't like this person, don't say that. Don't say it. Don't go there. Barbara Greenberg, PhD in psychology, they're talking in Psychology Today says, Find out why your teen likes a friend they don't like. And you might find out something very interesting and surprising. Yeah. So you may be thinking, because you're seeing a signal that is just misleading you. So don't don't sit and judge before you've asked those questions. And it may be that this person understands your teenager in a way that other people don't we all have different friends for different things. Or maybe

Susie Asli: 31:35

that person is triggering you. Maybe person Yeah. Maybe they remind you of someone that you don't like, like you need, we need to be really aware of why we don't like people.

Rachel Richards: 31:45

Yes. So what is it a really good point to also think, before you even have that conversation, think okay, what is it try and pinpoint what is it about this person that's making me feel my plugs go up? What's what's going on here. And, I mean, I've read kids who say, I made friends with this kid who really wasn't the right person, for me to be friends with, but I was the boring kid. And they were really cool. And it just made me feel good, and to be their friend. And you know, it can be a teen years, friendships actually can change quite rapidly. So you may find that they're friends for a while, and then it just, you know, so rather than panicking, having that sit down chat, but also stop talking and listen to them. Yeah.

Susie Asli: 32:30

And also set boundaries, if that if you know, they're doing something that or declare your boundaries, maybe it's better. You know, if they're doing something that you really feel is dangerous, or you know, a bad thing, then you can say, you know, I really don't want you doing that. I really think that's a bad idea. And please don't do

Rachel Richards: 32:50

that. Well, I think the point that is not to target the person who's their friend, it's to target the behavior. So the thing to do is pick out and say, so I've noticed that they are vaping, you know, it's something I really don't want you to do. And the more time you spend with them, the harder it's going to be for you to not be. So the question is, how do we manage this?

Susie Asli: 33:14

In another converse, you have a conversation about to do is that something you want to try you know, an inmate if they're honest? Or, or you call with, you know, being with them and not doing it? And then if they feel tempted, you can help them with? How do you navigate to Yes, give them ideas,

Rachel Richards: 33:33

and don't just assume that the other friends the bad influence, because you know, it might be your kid who's good, they might have seen this person who enabled them to behave the way that they would like to behave, could because it gives them the courage

Susie Asli: 33:46

and they're experimenting, but of course, we don't want them you know, doing stuff that is dangerous.

Rachel Richards: 33:51

And so the so the technique for doing it is to first of all make sure you don't folk don't talk about the person you focus on the behavior that's important. Don't contradict them or jump down their throat if they say, oh, you know, this person such and such don't instantly jump in there. I think all I know, I know. They're not all there. Let me give your teenager time to talk about it. And when to talk is really not a good idea to talk about this in the heat of a moment, an argument any just find a moment, you know, the car

Susie Asli: 34:23

secrets and also make them welcome. I mean, obviously, that's different for different people. But personally, I hope that my kids feel that all their friends are welcome.

Rachel Richards: 34:35

I always think about you, you know, in that respect, that's such an important thing. You know, make your house the fun place. Yeah, get the the I don't know if the things that they can do, you know, get the crisps or the whatever and just say hi guys come around, because when they're here, you can then it's not even about just monitoring them closely. You can just set get a sense of the interactions and you can see and then you can help point out to them or you know, the friend said this Yeah, I'm not sure that they really get you or they actually lead you in the right way. You can drop little nuggets in at times. But if they're all around your house, at least you know where they are. Yeah. And

Susie Asli: 35:11

maybe if their particular kid who's struggling with something, you know, you give them a space where they feel they can feel welcome that can that could really help them. And they might, you know, they might really benefit from that,

Rachel Richards: 35:23

yes, I was that person. I'm gonna, I was that person. So I was called a guttersnipe, by a woman who lived down our road because I was basically out all day, every day wouldn't get called in by my parents, I literally just, you know, was out. And that's because nobody really cared where I was or what I was doing. And I got to the age of 16. And so I'm moving away. Yeah, but I found a course I'm going to go on. And there was a hiatus. So between the age of 16, when I'd left school, and starting this course, I had an entire summer with nothing to do and no friends. What am I supposed to do with my time? So I looked around me while I was living in the small village, and I thought, Okay, well, I just will just make friends with the teenagers who are in the village. I, I've ignored them until now. How bad can it be? Pretty bad. They were smokers drinkers. I mean, you name it. They weren't shooting drugs, but they were you know, is close to that. And they were playing chicken with their cars. And but you know, I hung out with them because I thought, What am I supposed to do sit at home feeling lonely. And I think my parents didn't even know where I was. But it all came to a crashing end, where my parents had to pick me up from a hospital in the middle of last year at two o'clock in the morning, and I was covered in blood because one of the boys had been shot. And I'd rescued him and everyone else everyone having gone to

Susie Asli: 36:38

bed. So horrific story. Yeah.

Rachel Richards: 36:42

Yeah, maybe those aren't the people because they're easy to settle. They can't even string a sentence together. The other people, I was the only person who could actually give evidence properly. And, you know, the point is, I'm I wasn't a bad person. I wasn't a smoker. I wasn't a drinker. I wasn't having sex. I wasn't doing drugs. Anything. I was just lonely and bored. Yeah. So the question is, what is actually driving your teen to make friends with people that you think perhaps they shouldn't be friends? And ask the questions and that other mother down the street. And rather than saying she's a guttersnipe had said, Hey, do you want to come round? Yes, she might. Yeah, and

Susie Asli: 37:17

it might be really chainload changing. It might not be you know, we have to make the boundaries that we need, don't we? But you know, don't? Yeah, invite them around, see what they're like before,

Rachel Richards: 37:26

before you make a judgement. And avoid doing anything sneaky to try and find out what's going on. I see lots of parents saying, Oh, I'm going to go and look in their phone or I go, you know, Can we can we actually start being honest with our teens. And if you're going to look through their phone, it needs to be a discussion, say I feel very concerned about your phone use, and I need to be able to have access to it. If you can't agree to that we need to withdraw the phone, rather than sneaking around the back looking under their beds. And this is a real invasion of privacy, in my opinion. Yeah.

Susie Asli: 37:57

You're totally awful. No, I wouldn't do

Rachel Richards: 37:58

that. Because once they know, because the problem is if you find something now you're confronted with, what do I talk to them

Susie Asli: 38:03

about? How do I how do they know?

Rachel Richards: 38:05

What do I tell them? I've just been sneaking around

Susie Asli: 38:07

now. It's much better to have a conversation with a trust. Yeah. And they might not answer you immediately. But leave it as an open not as an ultimatum. But as like, I've noticed this, can we talk about it? You don't have to answer me now. But maybe, maybe tomorrow when you feel ready. Can we talk about this thing? And then it's like a it's just less of a ultimatum?

Rachel Richards: 38:27

Yes, absolutely. And they're not going to pull down respectful of the drawbridge on you. And don't forget that your team may be appearing as an unpleasant person or someone else's house, you just don't know. So it's never a bad thing to contact other parents, if you can just say hi, you know, I know our teens are hanging out together, how's it going? You know, wander out, you know, if you notice what they're doing, and actually being honest with them about where your boundaries are. So you can say are we so I really didn't bother my team didn't drink it. So at least the other person knows where you're at with this. And they may disagree. They may say, Well, we think it's fine. And you say okay, but just so you know, this is where I'm at. And I I feel very impressed. So

Susie Asli: 39:08

really good. I think that I think that's quite straightforward. When you like I was just thinking of my kids friends, like I know a lot of them really well, because they've been friends with them for years. And you know, when your kids are younger, you know, the parents really well. Whereas some of the more recent friends and maybe the older friends, I mean, the older in age, I have no idea who they are. So contacting parents would be tricky, I guess. But I like the idea. I like the idea.

Rachel Richards: 39:34

And that's common. I mean, you know, I've just been speaking to one of my daughter's friends and she said why parents don't know any of my friends. No, you don't know the parents know, sort of, but I mean it is what is that is one of those things where rather than kind of panicking about it, it's there's never a because you may it may put everything in context. Yeah, if you meet the parents, you may get our cake and can see why they're behaving this way. And you know, just get as much information as you can before you make decisions and that I understand that your your teen is trying to build their social circle. This may be a transient failure. So my daughter fell in with the wrong crowd when she first went to a new school. It was a phase, we talked about it. And I said, you might want some other friends. And actually, straightaway she moved on. Yeah. And, um, rather than panicking about because I think if I catastrophize it, it would have turned it into something very depressed.

Susie Asli: 40:24

And we can use those things to sort of teach our teacher kids boundaries, you know, what do you do when you're with somebody who is maybe not treating you very well? Okay, well, there are options. You know, it's a really great learning platform. I we've I've role played. Oh, I love that. I not recently, but in early on, she remembers it. She remembers how to say no to somebody. What do you do? Yes.

Rachel Richards: 40:49

So yeah, so that's a really interesting point. So we've you know, that, for example, we're coming back to the vaping. These kids have a ping, you're and you're saying, Well, I know that if you spend more time with them, you're going to be doing this actually just role playing? How would I get out of these situations? Yes, I know, it sounds fun. But you can. I mean, with my kids with drugs, for example, I've said to them, we have mental health problems in our family. And any drugs you take could tip your brain over and you can't get it back. So just so you realize that this is not really something to experiment with. I'm sure everybody listening, if you search far enough back in your family history, you'll find mental health problems. Yeah, where you know that because these can be triggered by certain drugs. So for my kids, it's a no go area.

Susie Asli: 41:31

Yeah. Or yeah, I think I told one of my kids the other day that they you know, if you don't want to do something, there was an issue with friends of, you know, boundaries as various things. Just, you know, you can you can use me if you want, you know, just say my actually, my mom won't let me I didn't mind, you know, give them give them options as to what they can do when they're in that situation with somebody who's maybe not respectful of their boundaries.

Rachel Richards: 41:55

That if you know that the friend is taking drugs, or torrenting, or showing up in police records, then once again, focus on the behavior as the problem. Tell your team that you have a zero tolerance policy because experimenting with drug taking stops you learning adult coping strategies for dealing with life. reinforced structure and boundaries, I would use the technique I talked about right at the start of the episode, tell your team that it's a privilege to go out not a right. And so is their phone, apologize for thinking that they were ready for the responsibility? And say that you're going to rein them in until you can see that they're coping better, and making better choices.

Susie Asli: 42:32

And again, trying to connect with it. You know, you have a conversation, open questions, what do you think about it? Who is this person? Why do you want to hang out rather than right? You're forbidden from seeing them ever again. Because that's just disconnect. And they'll just rebel.

Rachel Richards: 42:47

And I love that, because you're coming back to what you always say, which is that, you know, they do know, there. And so we've used if you actually try and reach into them and say so what do you use? You know, genuinely What do you think? I mean, you're an adult, you know, when you're you're growing adult, you're you've got a brain? How do you feel about this? Because I think very often if I was asked that it did engage my thinking brain? Yes. And then it makes me more inquisitive about the way that people are treating me and then it makes you more choosy.

Susie Asli: 43:17

Yeah. And the way you talk to your team is the way they respond. I think I read something and while back, you know, if you talk to the young part of their brain, then you'll get the young bit back. If you talk to the wise part the the mature part of their brain, you'll get the mature part back.

Rachel Richards: 43:34

I like that. It's

Susie Asli: 43:35

it's really, really immediate, actually.

Rachel Richards: 43:39

Interesting. Yeah, no, it's a really good yeah. So think about that. When you're engaging think what am I? Which bit of the brain Am I talking to? Yeah, like that. And also building up their self esteem. Quite often, our teens get led down an alleyway because they're just not feeling great about themselves often is, and rather than turning on the criticism, turning on the, you know, I see you do this so well, and showing them how nice it feels. Because very often they're in with these kids, because these kids are making them feel good about themselves. Yeah, somehow such

Susie Asli: 44:09

a good point. That's a really good point. How can we give them that in a different way?

Rachel Richards: 44:13

And while it's possible that your teenager could be with the wrong crowd, they could also be trying to navigate a mental health issue. Yeah. So So rather than fixating on that you could also look at okay, what's going on? You know, literally with my, my teenager, is there as the other stuff happening underneath.

Susie Asli: 44:31

Thing, are they trying to get

Rachel Richards: 44:33

exactly something happened? Something happened to them that we're not we're not aware of when we start asking questions, this is going to open something else up that I can help where are they

Susie Asli: 44:42

struggling with school and you don't know about it? And they're bunking off because it feels rubbish to be there. You know, it could be loads of million million reasons as to why they're acting.

Rachel Richards: 44:50

Yes, absolutely. Does the hair on the back of your neck bristle when you think of your teens, troublemaker friends or are they upstairs hanging out together? Because well, it's better to have them in your own home. Do you have any tips for us? message us on Facebook, Instagram or help at teenagers? untangle.com In our next episode, let's stay with this theme we've been discussing and look in more depth at how we should deal with the issue of drug use. Also, how to cope with the other divorce parent? Is your teen threatening to go and live with them because they have your rules? Well, we'll research the experts and talk about the experiences we know. That's it for now. Don't forget to subscribe so that you don't miss an episode review us so that other people can find us more easily. Tell your friends and send us any questions that you have. We're on Instagram or Facebook, and Susie has her own website which is Suzy as Li mindfulness.co.uk All the links are on our podcast notes. Until next time, goodbye. Bye bye for

Unknown: 45:47

now.