18: The lying teenager, and teens who complain that they've got it harder than their siblings.

Rachel Richards: 0:00

Hello, I'm Rachel Richards former BBC correspondent parenting coach mother of two teenagers and two older stepdaughters.

Susie Asli: 0:08

Hi, I'm Susie Asli, mindfulness instructor, a psychotherapist and mother of three teenagers two of them are twin,

Rachel Richards: 0:16

Susie, Last episode, we were feeling all warm and fuzzy about some feedback from Australia. And this time our favorite message was from a lady in Dublin, Ireland. So what did she say?

Susie Asli: 0:26

She gave us this really lovely review, which I'll just read here. Hi, Susie and Rachel, I came across your podcast while searching for something to help me survive these crippling and exhausting times with three young girls. I've been exhausting my brain while trying to figure out how I should manage an emotional time with my eldest amazing teenage daughter with her friendships. And while I thought I had all the answers in my head, after listening to your podcast while walking and clearing my own head, I realized that I'm putting all my own anxiety onto her making everything so much more worse. While we still have a lot more learning to do with her, of trying to fit in with groups. I found both of you amazing and really addressed everything that was going on in our life right now. So I want to thank you both for making me aware of what was happening and knowing that this is normal. I'm still maybe unsure as to how to properly deal with this. But your podcast gave me some amazing insight as to how to manage this and steps with how to deal with it. I just want to ask you, you would you think that it would be appropriate to have my daughter listen to one of these podcasts? I look forward to listening again. So you both

Rachel Richards: 1:32

know it's well worth it. What do you think?

Susie Asli: 1:35

Yeah, I think it depends on the child. I think if it's a particular topic that you think you're struggling with, and you feel it and you've listened to it, and you feel it would be helpful, then yeah, go for it. Yeah. My kids while there's me talking, they've sent actually said to me, who'd wants to listen to you waffle on for half? And

Rachel Richards: 1:54

we have to have it. Yeah. It's interesting, because mine have asked one in particular, and I said, Yeah, sure. I mean, if you want to listen to it, then I have no problem with it, because there's nothing in it that I think is inappropriate. And she absolutely loved it. The ones she's listened to, I'm quite sure which ones and sometimes I hear her saying things and I think oh, you listen to the podcast. Thing is one of the other ones said, yeah, now you're using that technique?

Susie Asli: 2:24

Oh,

Rachel Richards: 2:26

I don't think that's a problem. I was I was in sales. And when I very first started my career, and I remember my manager, doing this thing with me, where he started asking me about what I'd done at the weekend. And I told him about some show, I'd gone and seen and he was really interested. And I thought, Wow, he really likes me. And I was genuinely thinking really? And then he said, right. And that's how you do it.

Susie Asli: 2:53

Oh, ouch.

Rachel Richards: 2:55

And I thought, oh, actually doesn't like he's just using a technique. And but at the same time, I still it still made me feel better. And so I think you know, what you don't want to do is kind of give your kids this sense that you're just using techniques and you're not really meet, you're not really feeling meaningful about them. But I think as long as your teenagers know, the reason you're listening to this, it's because you're a good parent, because you wanting to find out how to do this better, because none of us really know what we're doing until we think about it. So, you know, learning techniques is nothing, it's no bad thing.

Susie Asli: 3:29

No, and it's all about connection. So if your connection is okay with your kid, then you know, a technique is just an addition, isn't it? And if it's a subject that they're struggling with, and then it could be really helpful that could give give them a new new perspective of it. But maybe you know, they're quite long some of them I don't we do waffle on

Rachel Richards: 3:49

as they say they'll tolerate it. By all means. I'm sure they've got plenty of other things they'd like to do. It'd

Susie Asli: 3:56

be nothing, in my opinion to be nothing wrong.

Rachel Richards: 4:01

So in this episode, we'll be looking at our teenagers position in the family has your oldest one had to do all the work in breaking down barriers, whilst the younger one not only gets a free ride, but often gets privileges earlier? Or have you kept very careful notes of the age at which your kids were allowed their privileges in order to avoid the problem. Yes, but first, Lacey has asked how to break a child from lying. She says her 16 year old lies all the time to get out of trouble. And he lies to his friends to make him seem like he is what she says more than he is. So personally, I lied a lot. A lot. I lied when I was younger, because I wanted to do really fun things that were dangerous. And and then I would just say I hadn't done it. And my father would say it's clear you did it because I would be covered in the dust from the goldmine dump that I've been playing on that he told me what was going on. So you know, and I kept thinking, How does he know? How does he know I'm looking back, I realized why. And as a teenager, it was much more to my parents didn't really restrict me. So it was much more to do with why I didn't want people coming back to my house because I was ashamed. So I would protect, they would think that I was too. You know that my parents were really restrictive, because I would say, Oh, my parents won't allow you to come back or they won't, you know, and that was my way of trying to keep them at a distance. And I would lie about what we had, about who we were everything. And it was just a front to protect myself. Yeah.

Susie Asli: 5:32

Yeah, it is genuinely a protection thing, isn't it? I mean, I lied as a as a teenager, I lived as a child. My parents were quite strict and quite restrictive. So I felt that, you know, I wanted to do things and my own I felt you know, as a teacher, my only option is to lie. So it is

Rachel Richards: 5:52

so Susie's mommy, sorry.

Susie Asli: 5:55

Yeah, yeah, I got found out. So it's not already Okay. Well, not all the time.

Rachel Richards: 6:01

Some of them, some of them, this is the thing. And and I listened to a very interesting podcast that my daughter put me on to, and there's a rapper called example, who talked about his lying, and he said that what he he constantly fabricated the way that his life was, but it was more of a creative act. And actually, he's used that now in creating a persona. So there's also an element of creativity. You know, I suppose we go through this existential questioning of who we are, where we are in the universe, and how much does what we do even matter of fact, yeah.

Susie Asli: 6:35

Fantasy you can call fantasy lying isn't it's not, it's you can let your imagination run wild. And that's a beautiful thing to do.

Rachel Richards: 6:43

Exactly. And we try things out, like, do I want to be this kind of person? And you could sort of just sometimes you think, Oh, I couldn't see these people again. So I could just say that, yeah. And then you realize you do see them again,

Susie Asli: 6:54

we'll take it all very seriously. They don't mean the line. And we do need to, and I think it can become a habit. So once you start lying, then it's really easy, isn't it, it's like a fun thing to do. And then it's a habit. And if we're not aware of that, then it just becomes something that we do. And that can that can cause a lot of trouble, I think. But when it's when teenagers lie, there's there's always a reason behind it. We might not like the reason. But there can be different aspects. And I think you're gonna come into that in a minute. But there's, if there's a, you know, a horrible consequence that they don't want to have, then they will lie,

Rachel Richards: 7:28

they're gonna lie. And Charlene said that she lied, because she didn't want to disappoint her mother. But she also had realized that her family were all lying. So you know, for example, what we do in our house is the phone, the landline rings, and I can't identify who it is. Somebody will say, I'm not here. Yeah. Somebody answers the phone. Everyone runs. Yeah. And you know, you can't you know, they're they're forced to set a standard go, Hello? No, they're not here at the moment. And this is all what we were considered white lies. But when you're a teenager, you're going watch you're doing

Susie Asli: 7:59

it. Yeah, it's a pattern you pick up on the pattern and the dis, you know, the dishonesty behind it? It's, it's yeah, that's important. We all do it. We do as well.

Rachel Richards: 8:07

Nancy, darling, as opposed to darling Nancy, who has a PhD in this has been studying lying amongst adolescents on five continents for over two decades. So she knows, yes, really cares about. And she says people talk about lying as if it can be defined in simple black and white terms. But she said, look, it's much more complicated than that. And what makes something lying is the intention. What are we trying to achieve with this, and she's and her colleagues have identified three basic types of lies, lying by avoidance. So this is the strategy which is carefully keeping topics away from the areas you don't want to be asked about. So for example, you know that your parents won't like you getting a bad report from school or you know, when you got some feedback in a class. So you come home, and you cheerfully talk about something funny that happened in another class mentioned visiting grandma, next week, grab a glass of milk and head off to the room. So what you've done is you've avoided the entire thing from coming up. Line by mission is the most popular and most common strategy. And and the one that works the best, because what that is, is you share some information, but not all of it. So for example, who's going to be at the party? Oh, John, Omar, Sarah and some other kids, we're going to be cards. What you didn't say is that the other kids are the people that your parents have expressly said they don't want you to spend time with Yes, for example. So this is lying by omission. It has the lowest impact on the relationship if it comes out. Because what you say is you say oh, sorry, I just didn't mention Yeah. And then it's harder for the parents to pin down as a proper lie. Yeah. And then the final one was lying by commission, and it's making statements that are factually untrue. And so for example, I finished my homework We haven't touched it. Yeah. Which is a kind of really stupid thing to do. And it tends to happen when they're younger or they just don't care. You know, there's a real problem there.

Susie Asli: 10:08

Yeah. Or theirs doesn't work very well, there's going to be such a huge consequence. Yeah, they feel they have to go that way.

Rachel Richards: 10:13

Absolutely. And almost all teams reported lying. So it's pretty universal. And the time when people lie the most is the teenage years. Yeah.

Susie Asli: 10:24

Because their brain isn't formed and they risk factor and, and they're massive opportunists. And they so desperate to be with their mates. So if moms or dads said you can't go, then you kind of feel like you need to go. Do whatever it takes to get there.

Rachel Richards: 10:40

Yes. And it feels like it's, it's worth it. Yeah, yes. And actually, I was talking to a friend of mine whose friend is she is professor, brilliant liar. And she said, My parents made me like this, because they were so strict, that all that it did was made me really, really good at lying. Really, very good at it, and I can

Susie Asli: 11:02

do it. That was their intention.

Rachel Richards: 11:06

And coming on to that Christian heart, he's a professor of psychology and wrote the nature of deception, said, You know, when you ask who lies basically people say everybody, and he said, Well, there's only a tiny percentage as a percentage of the population. This is called the Pareto Principle 20% of people account for 80%, of of lying behavior, accepting when you're coming into the adolescent years, so the teenagers, so in terms of the general population, it's a small number, who, as adults would continue to lie. Yeah. So they'll go through this phase. So don't panic if your teenager you catch them lying, doesn't mean to say they're going to end up the rest of their life like this poor lady, who says my teenager just lies all the time.

Susie Asli: 11:45

It's trying to find out why they're lying, isn't it? What's the reason behind it? Is it because they feel that you're being too strict? And they you know, they want to do something? And you're saying no, or are they wanting it can be also a self esteem thing can't if they're lying spot on, you know, lying to say that they're better than they are, or they've got, you know, the coolest gadgets or whatever you whatever the particular thing is, you know, they don't feel great about themselves. So they they make stuff up to feel better.

Rachel Richards: 12:11

I think that's very often very often happens when it particularly with friends.

Susie Asli: 12:16

Yes, yes. And kids really, once they found out that that's what's going on, they really don't like it. Because then the trust is broken, isn't it? They think a bit bit silly for doing that. And I think that is the problem with lying is not so much the lie itself, although that can depending on what it is. It's the trust, isn't it? It's the trust that's broken. So the next time you open your mouth and say something, of course, you're thinking, Well, I don't know if that's true or not. So we then have to try if we can create a place a safe space where they feel safe, where they, where they feel they can, they can tell us stuff that they know we don't like, and we're not going to go mental at them.

Rachel Richards: 12:56

I love that you brought that up, because actually, that was the one time when I really discovered one of my kids was lying to me. And I let her I gave her space to tell me that something had happened. And she didn't. And then I confronted her. And she was very upset about it. And I said, I'm really, really disappointed and upset. And it's not because of the thing because you've lost something really important. And I said I don't really care about the thing you lost. What I care about is the damage that's done to our relationship and how difficult it is now going to be for me to learn to trust you again. Yeah. And so there needs to be an X number of times now where I feel like you've told me things that maybe were uncomfortable for you before, I'll think, okay, she's she's cured of this desire to delight. And I think, to be honest, I think she lied, because the friends around her were doing things like that. And she thought, well, that it's sort of, that's what you do. You don't tell your parents is that? Yeah. And once she realized that, it was safer to tell me the non to tell me, it made a big difference.

Susie Asli: 13:57

Yeah, and they take the easy route out. And they I mean, we all do that many times. And the easy route out is the one of the least conflict. So if you're having to fess up to something you've lost, that you know, is expensive or whatever, then then you know, I can't be bothered to do that right now is gonna say something else. My as a minor minor lie, but my one of my kids missed the train the other morning. And, you know, surprise.

Rachel Richards: 14:21

So this is one of the major things in your house, isn't it getting on that train? Get one

Susie Asli: 14:25

of them? Yes. Amazingly, he doesn't miss it very often, but only a couple of times. So you missed it in the morning. And then he hadn't got his train ticket. So he had to come home and find a train ticket because he couldn't just get on with his mates. And he, he couldn't find it and then the next train was in half an hour. And it turns out that he missed the next train as well. Too late. And he seemingly told his sister that he'd done this and don't tell mum because I'll you know, kill you kind of thing. And she didn't she kept him but then he fessed up later on Why? When I asked him, I said, Thank you for I said you what an idiot and it wasn't the end of the world, you know? And we laughed about it. And I said, Thank you for being really honest, you didn't actually have to tell me that at all. I would never have known. Why did you? And he didn't really know. He just I think he just thought it was wasn't that big of a deal.

Rachel Richards: 15:22

But interesting, you know? And was he put perhaps when he was relaxed, and he felt like it wasn't Yes, it was later at

Susie Asli: 15:27

bedtime? Yes. Like, actually, my mind missed the other train.

Rachel Richards: 15:32

So I do think it makes a difference if there's a safe space, you know, when everybody's more relaxed, and they can say, Oh, by the way, yes.

Susie Asli: 15:38

Yeah, it's safe space. Yeah, you think you're gonna get absolutely, you know, really killed? Or there's going to be some sort of consequence. And of course, there has to be sometimes this lie was nothing. But if you feel if you fear that, then it's then it's not

Rachel Richards: 15:54

all just doubled down on it. And why does this really matter? And I think one of the key there is some key key downsides like Serota and Levine found in a study that prolific liars are significantly more likely to have their romantic relationships end, because of dishonesty, which is an obvious one, they're also likely more likely to be reprimanded or fired from their jobs because of deceit. So these are things that we can and also, interestingly, even Davey, who had done a lot of research in this said that the cognitive load that accompanies lying, is reflected in much lower response times, and a higher number of errors. So in many ways, the the work your brain is having to do to lie is slowing you down. It's causing problems in your relationships, and it could cause problems in your job. So lying is really

Susie Asli: 16:45

stressful. It's very stressful, remember details that you've made up,

Rachel Richards: 16:49

which is why I'm a terrible liar. I just can't do it. Because I'm too lazy to start. And I don't have a very good memory when it comes. To be honest. But I think it's

Susie Asli: 16:57

also really important that we can have empathy, like, it's really important. If our teens are lying to us, it's really important, we go behind why are they lying? What's the reason? Is it something that needs changing? Or, you know, what, what is it? And then also, even though you have the empathy and understand why they've lied, you can also then put in the boundary and go, Well, that's not okay. You know, it doesn't have to be either. Or, I can say, Okay, I understand why you've lied. And please

Rachel Richards: 17:21

don't do it again. And here's and here's what we have to do to help you. So brilliant. I love that. Yeah, absolutely. Why they lie. So here are some of the reasons that were listed in the research, getting out of trouble trying to do something they're not allowed to do, or that's dangerous, because they believe the parents rules are unfair. So this is why having an open discussion sometimes about what's going on, and explaining to them why it's important, and the authoritarian parents who put down rules and aren't prepared to talk about why those rules are in place, tend to have more problems with this. They think that what they're going to do is harmless. And it's a way to protect other people's feelings. maintaining privacy, and the most important thing for teenagers is establishing independence and autonomy. Yes, somehow pulling themselves back a bit and being able to say no, I'm in charge of this little world I'm creating and I get to decide. You know, what that means? The sorts of things they lie about their romantic relationships, homework, parties, blah, blah, blah,

Susie Asli: 18:21

do they feel ill or not? And we've heard that a few times. My eldest where he's, he's not wanting to go and he's felt a bit ill. And then he's told me that, you know, he's been sick because that's, you know, the fastest route to being allowed to stay home. And then I'm like, No, you didn't. I know. I knew for sure. We had no common boy. And so I went in. I'm pretty sure you haven't been sick. Can you just be honest, and he he immediately crumbly went yeah, I'm really sorry. I haven't been sick. I thought it would just be more obvious that I don't feel well. It'd be easier to stay home.

Rachel Richards: 18:55

And um, that, you know, mothers are better at sussing this out mothers actually had really good radar. Yes. For this apartment, you know, according to studies, and actually, my mother didn't I think she just couldn't be asked. So, you know, I would think I didn't want to go into school. So I'd say I'm really sick. If she ever brought a thermometer out. It was in those days where you had the mercury thermometers. I just want it under the whole. I mean, you know, she wouldn't really Elma. And one day I broke in the sink. God that was and I had to explain, but I mean, now with my kids, I basically go Oh, you poor thing. Let's get the thermometer out and I pop it in their ear. And you know, if they've got temperature, you can stay home otherwise you back in coffee go. So much harder for them. Like it's not worth it. Yeah,

Susie Asli: 19:38

but it's great if they can, like if you catch them doing something and then you kind of I mean, I think it's really not a great idea to try and catch your degree like if if you know that they've lied or you're a bit suspicious that something is not quite in alignment. There's something fishy going on. Then to try and try and catch them out so that you kind of have got you you know what? You were lying. I I think that's a really bad article. Because that's really disconnecting, that's really showing that you're just trying to be better than them.

Rachel Richards: 20:07

And they'll do and they'll defend themselves, they'll feel really attacked. Right?

Susie Asli: 20:11

You know, I would kind of have what what I've done with mine is like I, you know, I'm pretty sure that that's not the truth, you know? Just tell me what, what's been going on? And then they usually do.

Rachel Richards: 20:22

Yes, Peter mentioned that. And he said, Don't keep trying to check your kids. And because once you start looking for lies, and you're going to be one of those mothers or parents or poor fathers who are constantly, and then you branded them as the liar, and then then we'll why not? Why not lie? Because that's what people think I do anyway. Yes.

Susie Asli: 20:38

And you know what, they'll push you away, they'll just push you away, because it's really insulting. Yeah, to kind of accuse people of being untrustworthy. It's really offensive,

Rachel Richards: 20:48

actually. And they can they can lie to hide poor grades, social anxiety, social isolation, bullying, there all sorts of things that could be underlined, like you always say, look for this is just a symptom. Yeah, you know, what's going on underneath? You know, and that's where you can come back to what you said, which is, let's try and understand why Yeah, absolutely.

Susie Asli: 21:07

It's another symptom. And it doesn't, but it doesn't mean, you know, when we're under trying to understand something, it never means that we just go oh, okay, that's okay, then we can still understand and then go, well, that's not okay, let's guess it's behave differently, or how can we do this differently. And

Rachel Richards: 21:21

there's a study called other kids drink, but not my kid. And the research has found that teen participants, basically they were drinking alcohol, but only a third of parents were aware that the teenagers were drinking. And the AWARE parents were much better at keeping their kids safe, because they were able to have conversations with their children, or the teenagers, and discuss safe parameters. And the parents who were denying it or not taking notice, were the ones who were having children who were having problems. That's really interesting.

Susie Asli: 21:55

I think it also depends on the kid doesn't anything like they will have different personalities. I mean, I've got three kids, and they, they're very different in with regard to this, like, one of them's a little bit more brazen than the others. And I think another of them would would, I pretty sure wouldn't lie there would be it would feel too awful. So it depends on on your personality of the kid. Sure.

Rachel Richards: 22:22

Sure. Absolutely. And we know that you live with these people for their children, you know what they the fabric of? And I think a lot of parents look at the teenager and think, Oh, my God, this zombies coming to my house with this complete alien? Yeah. And they're not really underneath all of that they're still the person that you knew. They're just going through some transformations. And it's kind of going back to well, who is this person? Yes,

Susie Asli: 22:46

absolutely. Absolutely. And how can we? How can we create a space where they they don't need to lie. And sometimes that's possible, and sometimes it's not.

Rachel Richards: 22:56

So studies have found in terms of what you can do warm and trusting child parent relationships, lowers the tendency towards teen lying. Excessive monitoring by parents is not effective as a prevention preteen line, which is down to all the things we've talked about. And Dr. Darling, who I mentioned earlier, says open communication and the freedom to disagree with parents results in much more honest interactions. And her quote is, good kids are trusted, the more they're trusted, the more they try to live up to that trust, and the more trustworthy they become. That is

Susie Asli: 23:29

so true. I love that. That's really, really, really true for all of us.

Rachel Richards: 23:34

So how do we do it? That's really nice. Thank you, but how do you do it? So here are the tips be available and interesting. So the things you've talked about before you know when you're in a car with your son or your daughter and you have these quiet moments where you can just ask questions, and just make sure they know that you're interested and that you're going to listen if they're going to share things you'll just listen without jumping in and saying oh, I know the answer to this wait set clear rules and but also be warming and warm and accepting so according to darling teens and the most honest with their parents when they're not afraid of being harshly and unjustly punished, but teens also respond well to clear boundaries that are enforced with reasonable consequences.

Susie Asli: 24:21

Yes, it is. I

Rachel Richards: 24:22

think it's the unjust miss I think they think that hang on a second. You know, I did this and now you've gone and yes, locked all my electronics away for the next month. Yeah.

Susie Asli: 24:31

Was that really fair? Yeah. And natural consequences. We're always waiting to

Rachel Richards: 24:35

talk about natural consequences. This is a good point. Yeah. Well,

Susie Asli: 24:38

just when something comes up that it's, you know, the natural consequences, you know, if you've, I can't even think of an example that if you've broken something, and then you don't have it for a while, or if you've lied about going out somewhere then don't go out. The next time or something. It's not like it's a big punishment. I've never it's never affected If it's just a power thing, I think, but you know, they need to understand what's happened. And then and then once once it's sorted, then drop it. Yeah. So keep referring back to it that time when you forgot.

Rachel Richards: 25:13

I think that's the same for all relationships, including our marriages, or our relationships with our partners, because you have to let people move on they make a mistake, move on. Yeah,

Susie Asli: 25:23

deal with it in the moment in a way you find appropriate and you can, you know, be angry and have words and then once it's sorted, leave it. Yeah.

Rachel Richards: 25:33

And serving as a positive role model. And here's the quote is adults tell one white life per every five social interactions. And if kids are seeing their parents doing that, wow, I can't remember which research I found that front. And they're going to take on board what you're doing so they're watching us, a boy trapping teens in a lie, which is one of the things you pointed out very, very good point. Don't label teens as liars.

Susie Asli: 26:02

You have lies. Yeah, exactly.

Rachel Richards: 26:05

You're not a lie. You've you've gone lied. And that was a stupid thing to do. Dig deeper into that lie. So why what what was behind it? Why did you feel that it was important? What was what preceded the lie? You know, when you looked at me? Why did you think that? What How did you think I was going to react? Because sometimes then we can see that we're, it we're making them do this.

Susie Asli: 26:25

Yeah. And be flexible. Like if I remember with my son, he was doing physio, and he were really in disagreement as to what time all the details boring. I won't bore you with that. But the point was that we disagreed. And then he was kind of making stayed done. He hadn't done it. And, and it turns out that it just didn't, the timing didn't suit him. Oh, this is such a good point. I was just, oh, well, with this change the time. And then it was gone. So soon to be you know, being flexible. We don't have to, you know, I've made this rule. I'm going to keep it goddamnit.

Rachel Richards: 26:55

Yes, yes. And finally being prepared for real answers. Because sometimes we don't want to ask the questions, because we are a bit scared. Yeah, the real answers will be and they're not very palatable. But we kind of have to sit there and just listen. Yes, absolutely. Then give our point of view and try and make it an opportunity to get to know each other better.

Susie Asli: 27:17

Yeah, and sort of acknowledge that they've been really brave and sharing something that they know, you're probably not going to, like, we actually have a thing and we've never used it. I mean, to my kids are younger anyway. But I like it's not my thing. I read it somewhere. And it's if you're out somewhere and to take away the having to tell stories, and if you do not needing to lie. If you're out somewhere and you get into trouble and it's late at night, then you can I think it's a we've got us we've got a symbol that you can text, and then I ring immediately doesn't matter what time of the day or night it is I ring and say I need your home now I'm gonna get you where are you? And then you pick them up. And then they don't have to tell you why I think that's really important. They might later they might, you know, late, they might want to in the time, but they might not so that you take away the reason for for having to either lie or for not calling or that you know that you don't need to tell me I'll be there our company?

Rachel Richards: 28:10

Yeah, that's great one. Yeah, that's a great one. Because then they don't and I've seen one parent saying, Oh, if they've gone and got drunk, they're not coming back to my house, which is the No, because then they'll go somewhere else. And they're drunk now. And no, we just want them home. Yes. And then we'll deal with all of that later. But you know, in a measured way, you don't need to tell me. So then what we need to think about is the consequences. Because I think a lot of people struggle with what am i How am I supposed to deal with this? How big do I go? And I saw a wonderful one were in this wasn't lying. It was a teenager who'd punched a hole in a wall. And you know, another parents said, we'll just make them fix the wall. Yeah. Yeah, that's a natural consequence. And that's where this is coming back to natural consequences. So, you know, we what we don't want to do his punishment, because punishment, the job of punishment is to inflict pain and humiliate people. And that's not what we're trying to do.

Susie Asli: 29:02

I just get better at lying.

Rachel Richards: 29:05

Yes, exactly. And you're intimidating and all that stuff. You're right, you're you're kind of like, what am I trying to achieve? Yeah, not more lies. So the consequences to teach the lessons so that they can reflect on okay, why wasn't that such a good thing to do? So, connect the consequence to the original behavior. So if your son lied about going out, and who he went out with, you just say, Okay, so the next time you you're not going out? You know, we're going to the next we're going to keep your home just for, you know, one one night or two nights or something. And in that time, I just like you to think about why that was why did that matter to me? Why was I worried about that? So that they have time to be to reflect on it and please be truthful to me while we're at home?

Susie Asli: 29:50

Yeah. Good. There has to be also some sort of distancing thinking out of my head. There has to be some sort of, you know, reward for them for telling ya. It doesn't know. Because otherwise it's, you know, in their heads, it's all a bit black and white, isn't it? Yeah. So the reward is actually connection with the parents. So you know, you know that feeling of, you've shared something a little bit vulnerable or crikey, what they're going to do. And you you learn, and they realize that actually, that is enriching their relationship rather than the opposite. That must be, you know, that must be encouraged, and trying to trust that shows them that you trust them already, like, I've done in the past, I'm on my own with my kids. But if I've, if they've, you know, wanted to not have a babysitter again, this obviously when they were younger, but other equivalence, then I'll be like, Well, I'm gonna let you do that on if it does. If it goes well, brilliantly. If it brilliant, we can do it again. If it doesn't go, well, then then we can't do it again. And they will lose a teenager equivalence to that. And then they step up, and they feel that they've been trusted. And if it doesn't go well, okay, fine. We'll just, you know, we'll we'll, we'll manage it differently next time. But if it does go well, then a they have seen that I trust them. And be they've also grown in it because it's more responsibility. So we have to show them that we trust them, I think first,

Rachel Richards: 31:10

yes. And when my daughters Tell me something, particularly when it's a vulnerable thing, so when they've got into a sticky situation. My first response is always thank you so much for telling me just just do that. Just say thank you, I really appreciate you being open with me, because that that's a real kind of did the right thing. Yeah, absolutely.

Susie Asli: 31:33

Yeah. They feel that connection immediately. And then they'll then they'll want to share more

Rachel Richards: 31:38

the rest of it exactly. So rewarding them for the honesty is critical in that.

Susie Asli: 31:43

And it just also a presumption that they are telling the truth. I hear so many times where I've seen it so many times where, you know, almost like people are trying to catch their teenagers out. Or they're doing that, but they're not really and what are they what do they really mean, but you know, presume show them that you of course, they're telling me you're telling me the truth until I have hard evidence that you're not, you know, I'm not going to presume that you're trying to pull the wool over my eyes, because they pick up on that. And that's not a nice feeling.

Rachel Richards: 32:10

And also coming back to that type of lying. So there's the lying by omission, where they will admit something to you. And you just say thank you so much for telling me yes. And they may then go on to give you the other bits, because they're now thinking, Okay, I'm in safe space here. But if you instantly jump in and say yes, but is that everything? Yes. Who else wants nothing more, nothing more. Focus on consequences. So you say I dislike the behavior. It's not you. It's just I dislike this particular thing you've done. It needs to be something that's meaningful to them. So if they've been doing things with their electronics, which you don't like, don't just take away one game, you take away the electronics, but for the shortest time possible. And then if it happens again, then you can escalate. Yeah, but you need to start small.

Susie Asli: 32:58

Yeah. And ask them as well. I think I've done that where, like, there was a few mornings where I wasn't quite sure it was the illness thing, I think. And I explained that. I'm not I'm genuinely actually not sure. Now when you say you don't feel very well, I don't know whether you are or not. Because I know for sure that sometimes you've been fine. Yeah. What do we do about that? Yeah. Because then when the next time you say and what did what? What was the answer? It was understood. So we I think we talked about Yeah, no, it was understood. Yeah, no, I have been I think even fessed up. Yeah, I know. I have done that. And yeah, no, I won't do that. I will be more honest. But it was a really nice conversation.

Rachel Richards: 33:41

Love it. I love it. So are your teenagers pants on fire? Or are you just setting a bad example? Is it you? Come on, we've all done it. We'd love to hear from you. Our email is help at teenagers untangle.com. You can also reach us via our Facebook group or Instagram. We read everything at first your teen accuse you of letting the younger siblings get away with murder whilst the older one had to do all of the work in breaking down barriers. Now what and also which child? Were you picked up without Susie? Which child were you?

Unknown: 34:13

Were you the oldest middle and youngest of two? Youngest two.

Rachel Richards: 34:17

Ivan the youngest of two. Doo doo doo doo.

Susie Asli: 34:21

It makes it plays such a big role in our lives. I think it's really really underestimated.

Rachel Richards: 34:26

Yes, ADA says she has three siblings on her mom's side. She's the oldest, her mum homeschooled her. And she said I'm the test subject. I went through three different math curriculums, unlike my younger sister who only went through one because she got the good one. I got my first device, an iPad at the age of 10. And I had to pay for it. $100 whereas my sister got her first phone at the age of eight for Christmas and my brother's got a tablet for Christmas at the ages of five and six. I have galling I bet I'm willing to bet that the mother or father didn't really NOTICE This. And the older sibling remembers it very distinctly because they because my daughter, I've talked to my daughter about this. And she said, how did they keep tabs on that? Oh, my, oh my heavens. So my oldest daughter, I said, you know, I had to wait so long to get my ears pierced. You originally said 16. And I said that just because hockey is a long way away, we'd have to think about it. And eventually I capitulated. And then her younger sister got them done very briefly shortly afterwards, which really, really still annoys her. And I just said, Look, you know, as the, you know, we just don't know what we're doing with the old child, then you, then the next one comes along, you're like, Oh, I know what I'm doing. And then the last one comes along, and as my friend put it, you just hope the dog doesn't get it. You just kind of you sort of be bored now, aren't you?

Susie Asli: 35:52

I think I go both ways. So I've got three kids, and two of them are twins. But I still actually I think, have an older middle and a younger because the twins have this role. But they are this you know the thing. And I think sometimes my eldest is definitely had, we've had the conversation or they get away with murder, you know, I wasn't allowed to do that there. And he just gets everything, you know, quickly and easier. I've paved the way kind of thing. And then sometimes I the mistakes that I've made on my eldest of which there are many. I go, Oh, I'm not going to do that with them. I backpedal. So it kind of goes both

Rachel Richards: 36:27

ways. Interesting. Yes. So you've sort of worked out that you didn't do quite right. What you mean, you're more strict

Susie Asli: 36:34

with something with younger ones.

Rachel Richards: 36:38

Interesting. So So Wendy says that she was the second born of two. And the firstborn was always seen as more capable, because this is the flip side, right? And given more responsibility in the family with finances and decisions, and she says she was treated as the idiot who didn't know how to handle her affairs. But she was only she was just younger.

Susie Asli: 36:56

Yes. But if she's got the feeling that she's less capable that yes, we'll sit with her and,

Rachel Richards: 37:01

but we get that and the younger one gets annoyed. Yeah. Because she doesn't give given the responsibility or trusted with something. So then we give her the responsibility. And then she's works out that actually, it's a bit of a pain.

Susie Asli: 37:15

It's hard work. Right? Yeah.

Rachel Richards: 37:19

Being there. Yeah. I'm the younger I get that completely. Yeah. So birth order stereotypes. birth order appears to significantly impact children's personalities. In fact, researchers and parents genuinely agree on the following stereotypes, oldest children, and I said this my daughter, typical, oldest child, she said, What do you mean? What do you mean? I said, Okay, let's read it out. High Achiever and natural leader, adult pleaser, rule follower. know it all, can be organized, punctual, bossy, and responsible as she just went, Oh, my God, that's me.

Susie Asli: 37:54

My eldest is some of those not all.

Rachel Richards: 37:56

Ah, now. Now, that's a really interesting point, because there are mitigators to this modifiers rather, and the modifiers for them are things like family illnesses, life changes, such as divorce, blended families, death, financial gains, you know, so they, you know, this is this is exactly how it is, except when it isn't yet. And the changes in family can make a difference. Yes.

Susie Asli: 38:21

I mean, he's definitely the older child in the sibling groups. I mean, definitely has that role.

Rachel Richards: 38:26

Middle children are the peacemakers perfectionist who can be flexible, easygoing, social, independent, secretive, indecisive. I mean, they are harder to pin down. Because that's a that's a, you know, you're not the oldest you're not the baby. So you're sort of a bit lost in the middle.

Susie Asli: 38:40

There's a classic forgotten one, my kids Helen joke about that? Because Because my boy, twin is the is the middle child. I mean, he's physically the middle child. He was born first by an hour. But he also has that role. And it's what they used to joke about it like, Oh, you're the forgotten one, you know? Because that is the the classic

Rachel Richards: 38:58

game is the second boy. So he doesn't get the boy plays. And he doesn't, but

Susie Asli: 39:01

he's smart with it. Does get away with murder, because he watches and sees what didn't work well. And my eldest has a bit more of a rightness argument out and he's just like, I'm just gonna disappear. And

Rachel Richards: 39:15

because that's the thing, the younger ones are all watching the old one and the way that so we used to do this apparent trim where we talk about discipline, and you know, parents will say, Oh, you know, it worked with my older child, why isn't it not worked with my second child? And I'd say, well, because the problem is the second child is watching what you're doing and figuring out the tricks. Yeah. So you know, it's not always that easy. No. And so the younger the younger one gets all of that they get to what you know, they get the time where you go into sport today with the older child, and they get to sit on the side, eating crisps watching legs crossed or playing with their friends, while the older one they see how it works. So by the time they get there, it's just different. Yeah, parents more relaxed kids. Yeah, totally different and young. This children are the risk takers who can be competitive, self centered, creative, outgoing, funny, spoiled, easily bored and adventurous. I'd say that some younger daughter, probably probably me, although I did step up to the older sibling role to an extent.

Susie Asli: 40:14

Yeah. I mean, I know that, because I'm the younger child, and I recognize that list. And I regress, I think it's really important that we're aware, not just as, as parents of teenagers how they are, but also our own roles. It's really important as parents, and we're all in family situations sometimes, aren't we most of us anyway, and I regress, when I'm with my sister. My kids have noticed it my partner I'm doing and I'm doing it fully with full awareness. Like if we go on holiday, or we go out for the day, she quite likes being in charge. And I am more than happy to not be in charge. Right? So I just kind of tested it back, I kind of stepped back and tend to what I'm one of the teenagers, then she gives me my train ticket. And I have absolutely no problem with that. I don't need to control it. I have enough of that in my daily life.

Rachel Richards: 41:05

So I have a question because this does come up. To what extent is your position in your own family sibling relationship, then played out in your relationship with your children? Are you so you're the person who's a student? You're the teenager in that to has that? Do you think that's influenced the way that you? Yeah, parent, your cadet? And who you relate most to?

Susie Asli: 41:29

Oh, two questions in there? That's a really interesting question. I'm thinking about that. Yeah, definitely. I mean, I muck about quite a lot with my kids. I have the younger sibling, let's ask around and joke about. And sometimes have struggled to set boundaries actually, like, that's been my thing I've had to work on to be in charge. Because no one will do it for me. So it's

Rachel Richards: 41:57

coming back to you is interesting. In this podcast, but actually, now you're talking about your position with your sister, I'm thinking actually, that's why all

Susie Asli: 42:07

comes back to us, like all our parenting comes back to who we are, and how well we know ourselves and patterns, all of it, all of it. So then this is one of the aspects. I mean, we can learn different things. So I've learned how to set boundaries. I've learned how to take control, especially as I've been doing it on my own, but my natural, comfortable places probably being a bit silly and mucking about.

Rachel Richards: 42:29

Yeah. And I think that what's happened in my household is we kind of you go along with the older child. So as the older child starts watching twelves, yep, films, yeah. Then the younger child,

Susie Asli: 42:45

finds easier isn't that easy. Every night.

Rachel Richards: 42:49

We all have to watch Pingu again, or you know, so you just sort of move on. And so the younger child is dragged into more adult things younger, except the drinking where she's annoyed because her older sibling is now being allowed to have a little something at the table. If there's a big event. And the younger one, I just turned to her and say I'm sorry, darling. And so she's kind of ah, yeah. But the older sibling is quite, quite pleased by that. Yeah. Because she did get her sense of

Susie Asli: 43:16

Yeah, I think that's important as well, that they have some things that they were allowed to do. And the other one isn't.

Rachel Richards: 43:20

Yeah, but that's, that's why that's why you give in I think, because first of all, you realize nothing, no one dies, if you are more flexible. And secondly, it's just, you just don't want the hassle. Now, the younger one complaining about not being allowed to do things,

Susie Asli: 43:34

and it's for this sort of the family connection, isn't it? I remember doing that with movies. And just, you know, we want to have a movie night and and yes, you're not quite there yet. But it's it's the film's Okay. Whereas before I had kids, I was one of these sort of judging, children shouldn't be watching inappropriately these and then it's not quite as

Rachel Richards: 43:54

there's not as simple as that, like you said, you're better at parenting children.

Susie Asli: 43:59

But you know, picking it and making a choice conscious decisions along the way. And it's not all, you know, hell this.

Rachel Richards: 44:05

So should we worry about this? Why do we even care? I mean, apart from the fact are, our children will really, I brought this up at the table last night. So I thought we're going to do a podcast about it. I'll ask the kids. What do you think? And it was actually quite a fraught discussion. And I thought, wow, because the older one was a bit more relaxed about it. But the younger one was saying, let's not talk about this right now. And, and it's clearly an issue for them. And I said, I'd like to, but I'd rather know I'd like to know of the things that and they were more irritated with each other than they were with me. So they were blaming me to extent they say, Well, you did this and you did that. But actually, they're kind of still locking horns. Yeah. Which

Susie Asli: 44:47

is completely natural, enormous and working things out. Yeah. Anything

Rachel Richards: 44:52

to do you compare yourself to other kids your age, they they're more interested in how they compare in the home to what's going on outside. they'll they'll say, oh, such and such got this freedom. And I'll say, Oh, lovely for them, but they're much more interested and, you know, focused on the home because we

Susie Asli: 45:07

use our siblings as amazing experimental grounds when we're growing up to learn our boundaries and what works. What's fair, what's not fair, because our siblings give us unconditional love. So it's this amazing playground. So they're going to be more aware of what their siblings are doing, even if it's, it's their friends, because it's that is their safe space.

Rachel Richards: 45:28

And they can test things at home because they know that everyone's stuck with them. Yeah. So when they're going anywhere,

Susie Asli: 45:35

they've got to get to where my son had it. And my eldest had this conversation fairly recently, actually, where he'd said, oh, you know, they get away with murder kind of thing. And then we had another one of our car conversations, where he said, actually, it came up again. And I said, and I said, Do you feel that she didn't have a conversation? But do you feel genuinely that it's, it's hard of use the oldest or, you know, I was really curious and wanted to know more? And he said, yeah, sometimes, but to be honest, he quite liked having the boundaries. He really liked that, because he felt that was a good thing. So and I had not expected that answer.

Rachel Richards: 46:09

But mine said the same. Yeah. And I do think I mean, she has from time to time picks and picks up on what I'm doing and said, you know, you're giving too much freedom. And that's not actually I think she'd prefer a bit more of a boundary. So my daughter is now parenting me. Yeah, her daughter, parents me all the time. And she's right. And she's right. Because sometimes you forget, and you sort of it's in unless you're keeping a real log of what you're doing at any time you just get, it's just like, it's messy, isn't it? And I always

Susie Asli: 46:37

say to mine, which I find find has been really important when they were little as well. But also now that's because they're obsessed with fairness, especially when they're younger. But things have to be fair. And I think often we as parents, I know, my parents did, you know, bend over backwards to making everything 5050, or however many kids you have. So that's super, super fair. And then they start comparing, and they notice when it's 4951. And I've always tried to say and I don't know, I think it's, I think it's something that it's not about being fair, but we have, we have different needs at different times, and there'll be periods in our lives or days or hours even or weeks, where your needs are that you need me more in a particular capacity. And I will be with this sibling more because they need me whereas you are okay at the moment. That's so true. And when you need me, I'll be there for you. And the other one won't need me so much so that it's more, I'm trying to address your needs rather than making it 5050. Because that is a lose, lose.

Rachel Richards: 47:33

But it's also about being honest about what human beings are like, yes, you know, there is no zero sum situation, there is no exact comparison between one person and another person. People have different needs at different times. So I love that.

Susie Asli: 47:48

And if they're, you know, they're the glasses they're wearing, their focus is all Am I getting the same, which I know I did all the time as a kid, and my kids still do it, but they kind of muck about with another bit or is more on Okay, well, they're struggling a bit at the moment they need mum. Okay, fine. I'll go and do something else.

Rachel Richards: 48:04

Yeah, and we're all looking for attention. So it's, and it's, I think the reason this is a useful topic to just look at is being aware of the order in which they were born in how that will have impacted on the way they feel about themselves, and how they're looking at each other. And then noticing them as individuals and being open and honest about it and saying, you know, if I'm letting them tell you, you're they're upset about something and then just say, Well, I'm not doing it deliberately. So let's see how we can address it so that you feel much more is, you know, I love you to so much.

Susie Asli: 48:37

Yeah, if they can have that safe space where they can, they can like come with maybe something that feels quite critical. And we go, oh, really, you know, tell me more rather than I'm not doing that. Yeah, it's

Rachel Richards: 48:47

not me. It's not me. Yeah.

Susie Asli: 48:50

It's awareness. It's awareness. It's really, really helpful

Rachel Richards: 48:52

and noticing them and as an individual, not as just your kids. Yeah. And

Susie Asli: 48:57

how we have relationships. I mean, I think the statistics are that most, you know, marital or partnerships. They're often the oldest is with the youngest, if there's two in each family, and it's amazing. Yeah, it's really important that we are aware of it. It's really helpful. How interesting

Rachel Richards: 49:13

never thought about, but it's true. Are you typical of your birth order? Or was everything rather more complicated for you? We'd love to hear your thoughts. You can find us on Facebook, Instagram, or help at teenagers untangled.com. In our next episode, we been asked to talk about mum or parent guilt. If you've experienced it, you'll know exactly what we're talking about. Also, what can you do if you're worried that the friends your teen is hanging out with are a bad influence? That's it for now. Don't forget to subscribe so that you don't miss an episode review us so that other people can find us more easily. Tell your friends and send us any questions you have. We're also on Instagram and Facebook and Susie's own website which is Susie as Li mindfulness.co.uk Until next time, goodbye. Bye bye for now