17: Parent preference; and how to respond when teenagers want to ‘express’ themselves? Blue hair? Tattoos anyone?

Rachel Richards: 0:01

Hello, I'm Rachel Richards former BBC correspondent parenting coach mother of two teenagers and two older stepdaughters.

Susie Asli: 0:08

Hi, I'm Susie Asli, mother of three teenagers and mindfulness teacher.

Rachel Richards: 0:14

Susie, we're going to talk today about the impact of having teens who favor one parent over the other. And later, we'll look at how far we should allow our teens to express themselves through their clothes, hair piercings, and even tattoos. But first, we've had more wonderful feedback. And this time, it's all the way from Australia, Suzie.

Susie Asli: 0:33

Yeah, really, really lovely feedback. I'm just going to read it out. Dear Susie. And Rachel, I cannot thank you both enough for your podcasts. It has literally been my saving grace. My daughter is 12 and a half and navigating the dramatic overnight change from baby girl to tween has been tricky. I am naturally reactive. And your podcasts have been therapy for me giving me the tools to change my habits. And today it worked. As you drove to school, I asked her what's the costs? After a few nothing much she told me about this girl from another school who was being mean to her. Instead of reacting. I had your voices in my ear saying, listen, repeat. Listen, repeat silences Okay, active listening. And she opened up more and told me everything. I gave her a couple of calm suggestions just at the drop off point. And she got out of the car saying, Okay, thanks, Mom. A few weeks ago, I wouldn't have been able to do this without reacting and giving my opinion. It felt so empowering. And I was so grateful that she opened up to me. I absolutely love your podcasts. And I'm listening to them again, a big hug. And thank you to you both. I'm so grateful that you're both sharing your wisdom, anecdotes and advice. Wow. Beautiful. That's really, really

Rachel Richards: 1:39

tight. And I heard back that time back. Yes, we're, I think that's the whole point. The podcast is is supposed to be a bit of a hug. And we all overreact at times. I sometimes jump I think, Oh, I know this one. I know. And speak before. I think so we all suffer from this. But it's great that you're learning those skills. Reaction. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And it's very positive. So before we move on to our latest subjects, I also want you to scooch back into our last conversation about swearing, because I forgot to talk about the written version. And I know Susie, you swear at home a lot. I think we've all established that. But what do you think about your teens swearing in messages? Have you even discussed

Susie Asli: 2:25

it? No. And you asked me this earlier. And it's really made me think so I'm going to have this conversation this evening. We haven't discussed it. And I think I think it's really important that they don't because of

Rachel Richards: 2:36

Yeah, so I have talked to my kids about it. And I think it's a no go zone. Oh, and I you know, obviously they'll do what they want. And I don't sit there checking their messages. But I've said to them, what you need to understand is even if your friends are swearing, on messages, you don't know when that party is going to stop and someone's going to take offence at something you've said or screenshotted or anything. And just in the same way that you probably don't want to show your boobs to the entire school of boys. You probably don't want the entire school to see something that you've written that's offensive. So best not to put it into a text if you're going to swear. Um, you know, that's fine. I don't really care. But do it amongst your group. Yeah. Without, you know, having some record of it that can be passed around and for people to then continue bringing it up. Who knows years from now? Yeah, no, that's important. I'm gonna be having that conversation. And my kids are completely cool with that. They're really sort of, I wouldn't do that. I mean, I didn't know some some parents gonna call me and say, I've seen your daughter's guaranteed anyway.

Susie Asli: 3:44

Thanks for that, because that's a really good tip, actually.

Rachel Richards: 3:47

Now, our main topic today is what to do. If the teenager favors one parent over the other. We know teens love favorites, then we they I mean, they're always talking about their favorite band, table YouTubers. I mean, you name it.

Susie Asli: 4:01

Yeah, my kids have a thing not so much right now. But for weeks, they were like, we had family jokes about who was the favorite child. And you know, if I just said something to one kid, and the other one would see that's the favorite child. I'm not your favorite. Or if I say something nice. I'm see I'm the favorite child. It was a bit of a joke.

Rachel Richards: 4:19

It was quite funny. Yeah, I mean, it's a bit people joke about it. But I have seen quite a lot of complaints, particularly from mothers where they feel huge pain because they feel like they're the people doing all the work. Putting in all the boundaries and then getting none of the good love back because the teen babe is the bother.

Susie Asli: 4:36

Yeah, I think it's really painful. I think it's like a primal thing. And I think it can be you know, either side. I've heard lots of mothers as well. And I think we have to, yeah, it's a primal feeling of you know, real pain that that you'll be feeling rejected by your own child. And I think we have to manage that really carefully. Yes, look at what's behind it and how we do Do with it. And it's often, you know, we have to be emotionally really mature about it. I think. I mean, I'm not with the father of my children. And so it's different if we're not in the same house and the same family. It just gets exacerbated, I think

Rachel Richards: 5:16

I was gonna say, because actually, you must have I mean, you're the primary caregiver, and they go to their father. But that very often causes other problems, you know, for divorced parents where they didn't want to go to the other parent, or they favor one parent, because when they go there for the weekend, it's really fun. There are no boundaries in terms of electronics, there are no, you know, they can eat what they want. And it's very galling for the parent who's doing all the hard work.

Susie Asli: 5:44

Yeah, we've had all those scenarios many times, and I, you know, they're there with me most of the time, I think, you know, again, it's the whole mantra of it's a phase, everything passes. So when they favor parents really good. I think it's often you know, if we can remind ourselves, it's just a phase. Yeah, and allow it to play out, and then check in with ourselves. Because I mean, there can be real reasons at the root of it, you know, perhaps we're behaving in a way that is pushing the teen away. And looking at that, but looking at our role in it, and also looking at what's in the best interest of the child long term. Because that can be really difficult to look at, when we're, we're experiencing immediate pain, we want to fix it, we want it to go away. Whereas actually, the best thing for the child long term is that they have a good relationship with both parents. So true as adults, otherwise, they have to, you know, unpack it and mend it. So we need to park our own pain and and deal with it in our own way. Why is it so painful for me to feel like they're not favorite? What am I doing? What's my role in that? How can I? How can I manage that? And what am I maybe doing to make it worse, and maybe it's fine for the kid right now to you know, be daddy's little girl, or whatever they are? Whatever it is, because that's in their best interest. And I can deal with myself as a as an adult. Yes. And they really

Rachel Richards: 7:12

does. It does kind of come out in the wash if both parents are being reasonable. And I think that I was concerned with my stepdaughters as they were growing up, because that was a very complicated dynamic, and I was worried that they weren't really seeing both sides of the coin. And that it would be difficult for them, I think it's really important that they do have a relationship with both parents because they need to see that relationships are complicated, and that they and that people have very different things to offer. And one of the things we can do is we can we can champion the parent who was not the favorite at the time and say, wow, you know, they offer this Yeah. So stepping in is a very important role. So I was, probably still am, I think I'm the favorite player. Hilariously, I saw a video if it was 11 years old, this Sunday, which was Father's Day, and it was when my daughters were had decided to do a deep big display for their daddy. And we were at his mother's house, and they were dressed in beautiful dresses, and they'd say, Daddy, we want to sing a song for you. And they sang the whole song. And it was things like, you know, when I'm frightened, who dries my tears when I'm hungry, who makes me dinner. And then at the end, there's some interesting Daddy Daddy, but because they practiced it for mommy they sang. And luckily, my husband, he's fine with that. But I can imagine if you were the person who it was supposed to be dedicated to it, and it was a touchy subject for you, that would be very painful. And you know what I've done to try because I'm really keen for my girls have a very close relationship with their father. And so I often say, Well, why don't you go and ask Daddy about this? You know, he knows more about that, even though I think I know more. I will, I will try. And I've actually learned to step away. So I will go away for a day where I used to be me running everything. And I realized it's much better for my girls to be on their own with because I think, Oh, God, I don't even talk to each other. What do you happen to believe them on their own? Well, funnily enough, they cope. And actually, yes, they work it out. So sometimes we need to step away from the situation and accept that trying to get more involved isn't really helping,

Susie Asli: 9:25

and also recognizing that our children get different things from different parents and that we're not supposed to tick all the boxes. Yes, that you know, we give them different things. And some sometimes we give loads because they're in that particular developmental stage or there's something going on in their life that is really relevant and we can help them where there will be with them with and sometimes it's the other parent, and it's having the grace and the maturity, the emotional maturity to step aside and go this is, this is fine for my child. It's maybe painful for me right now, but I will look at that myself. and let the child do what they need to do. And the dynamics because we have that dynamic with with relationships in general that there's often somebody who's a bit more needy pushing. And then another person who sort of steps back a bit. That's always the balance. And then if the needy one, the pushy one pushes a bit more kind of where are you? Where are you? Where are you? If you're pulling away, then though the one who doesn't like it, steps back and goes, you know, get off my personal space. Yeah, the more Yeah, the more pushing goes on, the more they step back, and then it becomes this horrible cycle. And as we all know, anyone who has a teenager knows they just want their own space, they want you to go away until they need you. And then they want you there immediately,

Rachel Richards: 10:42

immediately. 1130 at night, and you're trying to go to bed. So

Susie Asli: 10:45

looking at our own dynamic, are we pushing maybe more than is is nice. Or you're just looking at the dynamic between awareness and awareness, looking inwards, what how am I contributing to this?

Rachel Richards: 10:56

And things like I saw a mother who was very upset because she said, You know, I could spend all day cooking a meal. And, you know, I've watched all the laundry, I've done all this stuff, and the kids come in. And because I'm just trying to do the last bit, my husband will say about the meal, and then we'll say Thanks for the meal. And she said, I just infuriates me. And I have basically told my kids, you know, note to the responses. Thank you, mommy, for this delicious meal. I don't care if you like it or not, that's what you need to say to me, because I'm not a good martyr. And I told my family very clearly that I can't do the old because you're wonderful. You're this lovely, cozy loving mother who's happy to put away, you told me like, you know, so you do these things for your kids. And I, you know, if I feel resentful about doing something, I won't do it. And I'll tell them, I'm sorry, that's not my job. And I'm not, you know, I love you. But I am not putting all your clothes back in your room there in the laundry room, you're gonna find them.

Susie Asli: 11:52

That's really good communication. And I'm not always like that just for the record, actually, last night. And I think humor is really important. humors can be so helpful, especially with teenagers. And so for example, last night, my eldest was complaining about not the particular dinner I'd made, but he was saying he was making some comments about some dinners I'd made and it was all it was all in joke. And we've had this conversation many times. It's just funny. And he knows he knows it's kind of a funny thing. And he was he took it a little bit too far. It was funny. So I actually threw a glass of water at him. That's him talking. Wow, it's very funny. Wow, he's quite shocked. Yeah, you didn't talk about the dinner afterwards and just went and changed.

Rachel Richards: 12:37

So there's a psychotherapist who wrote a book, the favorite child who says favoritism is usually harmless unless the parent makes the child feel guilty about who they prefer. So or they're trying to buy favoritism. So you can't try and make them feel guilty about favoring the other parent because it becomes manipulative. And and also this trying to buy the favor is, you know, if considered by courts to be manipulation, and it's really not something we should be doing. So, you know, and the kids, the teenagers will gravitate towards the call parent. Yes, normal,

Susie Asli: 13:13

right, there is cool. And there's also safe isn't that they gravitate towards safe as well. I mean, I think it's, I think that's really relevant. And I love the way that you give your, your husband space so that he can then step up and they can have that relationship. I do think it's really complicated when, when the parents aren't in the same house, and maybe it's not amicable, because then it can so easily turn into manipulation. Often with the best interests, you know, you think you have the best interests of the child at heart, but it rarely works out that way. And that can make it really complicated because maybe there is a different consequence, you know, where they want to live in a different home, or they don't want to go and visit the other parent and that, you know, the consequences are bigger and, and have long term effects. So it's really important that we can step back and I have found that really interesting, because we've had lots of years of, you know, it's it would be so easy to just badmouth the other parent. And that is never in the child's best interest. Never, ever, ever, ever. It's only painful for them. And it's really tempting. So if we feel them pulling towards the other parent, we have to just, you know,

Rachel Richards: 14:26

I think it's really important. And what I read that you have to be explicit with in particularly scenario like that with the teenager and so you don't have to pick sides, just so you know, because I think one of the things that our family dynamic struggled with, was this sense of, you know, am I being disloyal to one parent by wanting to be with the other parent and or spending time with a stepmother or whatever. And I think the way in which we can help our teens is even if they are infuriating, or you see The manipulative behavior, you kind of have to support the teenager and say, You don't need to pick a side. No,

Susie Asli: 15:08

it's really important. That's really good.

Rachel Richards: 15:09

We love you unconditionally.

Susie Asli: 15:11

And also the other the other side of it is, and I have this as a bit of a mantra. It's not personal. I mean, it feels personal. It kind of also is personal. But teenagers are massive opportunists. Massively, we all are. But they're particularly. So they're like looking at the particular situation they live in the moment their brains aren't finished for me, what do I want to do? What do I need to do? And how can I get it? Mum might be the quickest route or dad? Yes, I think girls are the one who'll give it to you, they kind of do whatever it takes. And you know, we go and then take it awfully heavy personally, and often isn't.

Rachel Richards: 15:48

And I think when you know that there is a favored parent, whichever one it is, because it does change. And it can change by day, or it can change by sort of progression through their growing patterns, the important thing that your partner can do is actually be aware of it. So sit them down and explain to them how it's making you feel if you feel that they're constantly taking all the glory, and you're feeling very put upon have a conversation outside of earshot of the teenagers and say, Can you not champion me a bit? And because it's very healthy for the teenagers for the parent who's favored to say, if you notice, you know, and so I will often say, Oh, Daddy does this, and he does, because they don't notice what

Susie Asli: 16:30

the parents doing for them. So you did that back to you once, didn't he? Oh,

Rachel Richards: 16:33

he did. He was brilliant. Because, you know, I mean, I'm always saying, you know, you know, okay, I know he's not doing this, this and this, but he is doing this. And, and then they'll go Oh, because they won't notice. And there was one day when my one of my daughters was being really quite unpleasant to me. And I was so upset that I actually felt quite tearful, and I went up, I just said, you know, I'm not going to stay in the room right now I need to leave, and just go and be by myself, because I don't want to have conversations with you. And my husband turned to him and said, I don't know why you're talking to your mother like that. She's your biggest champion. She's on your side, every moment of the day. So views and it took her 10 minutes to think about it. And then she came up and apologized. And wow, it's had an amazing impact on our relationship. Because sometimes our teens aren't thinking and they're not noticing, because it's all about them. And that's, we can't blame them for that. We've all been teens, we've all done that kind of. And sometimes we're very worried about us. So we need to be supportive of of them seeing the bigger picture,

Susie Asli: 17:36

what's a beautiful role model that is as well, amazing what a great guy, we can do a team and shows your daughter how you know, you can stick up for each other. And it's really beautiful. It's

Rachel Richards: 17:45

really beautiful. And we can do that also with the I mean, obviously, when you have gone through a divorce, I haven't yet seen a divorce, that hasn't been unpleasant, because you know, you could be quite amicable going up to it, and then going through it can be really difficult. So I'm sure there are a couple ones, but it's a very hard thing to go through. And being able to say, look, it didn't work out for us, because we're fundamentally different people and we couldn't live together. But you know, your part, your parent does this for you. And then you know, this is the role that they trying to fulfill, and they love you.

Susie Asli: 18:17

Yeah, and if they're struggling with something particular they've done, I mean, I've I've done this with my kids, if they've, you know, found something difficult, you know, it's so tempting just to sort of jump in and give you that, you know, you know, reply I often use is, you know, I don't know why, but I'm sure I'm sure they have they're really good reasons. We don't know what they are now, but I'm sure they have good reasons, you know, ask them,

Rachel Richards: 18:38

yes, encourage them to talk to the parent, rather than because very often as the preferred parent or the parent who's there will try and second guess what they're thinking and actually encouraging them to talk to that parent. It's a life skill.

Susie Asli: 18:49

Yeah, it is a life skill. And also on that, on that note, we can also talk to our teens, you know, if we feel that our teams are, you know, pulling away from us, and that feels really difficult and really painful, then, you know, there are loads of options. And one of them is to have a conversation with them about it and say, you know, you're noticing that they're pulling away? And what do they need? Then accepting everything they say, you know, not going in and going, Yeah, but you can't have you know, do you need space? Do you want me to leave you alone? And if they go yes, then that's what they need for a while and it's a phase it will pass. I remember when my eldest was he was struggling with his back and I was totally in his face about physio had to be um, and he would seen occasionally go, can you just go, can you just leave? And I would be like, Oh, okay. And my, you know, the, the immature part of me will go out. That's not very nice. And then I would talk to the older part of me and go okay, yeah, he wants to space. Okay. I don't have to take that personally. Okay, fine. I'll see you later. Yes. And then he's fine again.

Rachel Richards: 19:53

Yes. And remembering that there's a there was a brilliant quote from the psychologist Dr. Donovan. Rockwell who said there is no such thing as a runner up parent now enough that they're just different parents offering different roles and our kids need all of them. And actually, one of the things I've noticed, when we were in family gatherings is so interesting. My older stepdaughters, I noticed one of them gravitating to one of the members of the family. And I thought how I never would have put them together, you know, but she loved chatting to her. And that made me realize that even though I thought, and I do know my stepdaughter, quite well. Sometimes they need something else. Yes. And that's okay. And actually having a big mum, lots of members of the family or any members of the family, who are not you who can bring something else to the party or some other perspective is a good thing.

Susie Asli: 20:45

Yeah. And when that triggers us, which it will, because it's painful, that is our opportunity to look at that ourselves. Why is that so difficult? And how can I? How can I heal that in myself? Because it's actually nothing to do with the kids. So that's our own stuff.

Rachel Richards: 20:59

And also, I think we can also look at when we get upset, so for example, our teen likes going out and playing ball, you know, with the dad. And I think, you know, they're always having fun, and I'm having to do all this will drop all the stuff you're doing Yeah, go out and say, right, I'm playing but see, it's because sometimes it tells us what we genuinely want. Yes. So we've taken on a role that we thought we had to fulfill. And that that that anger or upset is telling us something that we want to have more fungible, go and have more fun, just add. And if they say, Well, hang on who's doing that? You just say, Well, I don't know which one of you is gonna do it later. We'll do it later. Right.

Susie Asli: 21:41

So important. And that's what we always say, isn't it? Our triggers are opportunities. If you're if it's triggering you WHY, WHY? What's going on?

Rachel Richards: 21:47

Yes, I'm one teen I saw talking about this said, just remember that the parent that we are choosing, or the parenting style we're asking for isn't necessarily what we need. So please don't just get into, you know, because because they quite like some of the boundaries. They quite you know, there may be saying, Oh, I like Daddy, because he's giving me No, he's taking him out for a burger and he's letting me do what I want. But actually, they're very grateful. I mean, what my one of my teens, just yesterday, messaged me and said, Please, can you change the password for Netflix? Because she got hold of it and she'd been watching She Said, I just I just need someone to just stop me amazing. And you know, it hadn't I just was bad parenting. I hadn't really been thinking about it. But for her she and she likes she wants

Susie Asli: 22:36

the boundary. Yes. Sometimes there's a slight relief in it. When you say no isn't there. There's like, Oh, I really want to really want to you're, you're really mean and unreasonable. And Oh, thanks. Now, I don't have to

Rachel Richards: 22:45

do that. Yeah, exactly. I didn't have to call on my own chain, but it's my mom who has to do later

Susie Asli: 22:49

on I'm at my eldest Tiki now he's a bit older, he remembers back to some things and we've had some episodes which have been quite challenging and difficult with with living here and his dad and different different aspects. And later, we've had conversations about it where he's, he's actually gone. You You did the right thing, ma'am, you put in? You helped me with that by saying no. Yes. Which has been unbelievably spine chilling. Yes. Yes. Why?

Rachel Richards: 23:14

Um, but you know, they do they do. And that's, that's on that note, you know, having having two older stepdaughters. Just take a breath, and don't panic because they, it all sorts itself out. And that's what I've learned. It's just sorts itself out. They're amazing, wonderful, wonderful people. And I'm so grateful to have them in my life. And it's not always easy, but trust trust the process.

Susie Asli: 23:37

Yeah, trust and the long picture so that when it's you know, work for the long picture, when they're rejecting you in this moment is really painful. But the long picture is, it's

Rachel Richards: 23:47

it's everything. I was listening to the most amazing podcast, which involved the chief negotiator of the FBI who's written a book, and I've forgotten his name. But one point he made was, he said, anecdotally, with us as negotiators, and scientifically we know because this has been tested where they put probes on people's heads, and they challenged them with really uncomfortable emotions. And he and what happened was, when you are able to identify the identify the emotion for them, or they are able to identify the motion and give a name to it, the electrical activity diminishes. Which I thought was absolutely fascinating because it then made me think of the people who self harm, being unable to identify or frame the emotion that they're experiencing. And also the damage that's done to boys when they're not allowed to express their emotions and think about their emotions. And how we as parents can make such a difference to ourselves as well as our teenagers by saying, Okay, what is this? What is this emotion and you see the emotion in the in the teenager trying identity For them, they'll tell you it's not that yes, but try and give them a word for it because it is so supportive. And so healing,

Susie Asli: 25:08

as amazing and all write it down. And that's the power of therapy, isn't it? The next stage stage of it. That's why it's so important to verbalize things. Yes.

Rachel Richards: 25:17

And one last thing before we leave this topic, usually, even children who have been very badly abused by their parents love their parent, they want their parents, they want their parents and they want them. This is why the courts don't like to take kids away from their parents. If the child if your teenager is completely rejecting you, and there's nothing like you're not being completely authoritarian, you know that there's nothing specific that you can see that's neglectful whatever, they may have some kind of personality disorder. So it's, it may be worth getting some therapy or talking to a professional about you know, what the signs are seeing? Because it might be something else. Anyway, Have you struggled with favoritism in your home? How have you coped, we'd love to hear from you. Our email is help at teenagers untangle.com. You can also reach us via our Facebook page or Instagram. We read everything. Just get in touch. We love it. Now, Suzy, should we let our teens express themselves the way they want nails, hair piercings tattoo clothing, I ask because tomorrow's son graduated aged 18 and wanted royal blue nails to celebrate tomorrow's not keen doesn't like them. But she decided to pick her battles. While she was painting his nails. His stepfather walked in on it and said Real men don't paint their nails.

Susie Asli: 26:37

That's a whole can of worms. This whole

Rachel Richards: 26:39

can of worms. I'm not gonna go into the whole LGBT thing, because we will we will cover that. Because she ended up in a fight with him over it. And you know, My instant reaction is that's a man who's stuck in that man box. Yeah, and probably need some help getting out. Yes. Or you just leave him, whichever. But the father was, you know, it really incited anger in him. So coming back to Should we let our teenagers blah blah, blah. Yeah. What do you think Suzy?

Susie Asli: 27:05

Well, you can probably guess. Yeah, I'm not that fast. I'm not that fast. What they do I mean, they my kids know. And I've said explicitly that their bodies are theirs. And they get to do what they want as long as it's you know, within the limits of not damaging and at a certain age. Okay, so

Rachel Richards: 27:25

what age come on to so we bought and what we've got a piercing, or yeah hair dye or PSM. What age Okay,

Susie Asli: 27:31

well, piercing my boys don't want their ears pierced. So I have a daughter, and she was 10. And she had wanted it for 18 months and like almost daily asking, asking, asking, so I'd set tennis as the as what I wiped out. Well, it was a bit of a quick thing, because she was eight and I went 10 That's feels quite far away. Thinking she might be she

Rachel Richards: 27:55

didn't she wrote it in pen.

Susie Asli: 27:58

She She did it on notion. But by the time she got to 10 to about you, so I'm 10 Now I can have it and actually, she it was such an important thing to her. And I felt that she was able to take care of her ear and to keep it clean that she's quite. She's quite sensible. And so we had it done at the time, I didn't realize that she nobody else her age had because I'm not worrying about what other people do. So that was a bit of a so what happened to the pigeons while she got her ears pierced and everyone went oh, well now I want my name because Emily's got hurt.

Rachel Richards: 28:31

How did the parents react? Because that must have put pressure on them? Probably. Yeah. Okay. Because I think this is a community thing. Oh,

Susie Asli: 28:39

it totally is. Mostly. And so it's really important we we stop and we listen and we go what I think is okay, of course we're influenced by the culture we live in of course, we'd be crazy to say that we're not

Rachel Richards: 28:50

but and the kids are coming home going. Yeah, well, Johnny, everybody else's. Yeah. And I always say Well, that's very nice for everyone else

Susie Asli: 28:55

if you don't like if you didn't want them Pearson then that's completely fine. There's you know, there's no judgement their hair dye. Oh, and Emily Hannah has a second piercing and she's she's 14 Which I'm completely fine with but totally respective people think that's not okay. My sons, I always like to get to the summer holidays because I do struggle a little bit with you have to look a particular way in school. I think you know, we're only young only teenagers once. Yeah, it's like one of the most expressive times in your life. You know, go for it.

Rachel Richards: 29:26

You can't do these things once you go out with blue hair. Yeah.

Susie Asli: 29:29

Well also there, you know, the personalities they're trying themselves out. So you do that by the way you look particularly as a teenager so the whole school uniform. You have to have a certain hair length really doesn't sit well with me. But holidays go for it. You know what I think my son was when I was 13. And I bleached his hair nice. Really fun. Yeah, I love it.

Rachel Richards: 29:51

I know his hair grow. Susie's got really dark hair. I bet your son's got

Susie Asli: 29:54

dark, he's got dark they're not quite as dark as mine is proper blonde. It was really fun. And then he didn't like it and cut it off. So you know,

Rachel Richards: 30:03

and that's what you can do so, so that's coming to this, it's actually it can just grow out, you know, it's not going to actually make permanent changes, then I'm with you. But the whole thing with the piercings interesting because with my both my daughters desperate, desperate, desperate to have their ears pierced and ones a year and a half older than the other one. So they're very clear and the different one year difference in school. So it's, it's quite intense, because they're constantly looking at each other. And I eventually I said, you know, I can't remember the exact age, but I said, when you're a teenager, you know, or something 12 I can't remember. But again, it was an arbitrary date, I'd set sort of just to make it feel like they're grown up now. So they can have you know, and I hadn't really thought it through if I'm honest. And I, my, my, my other daughter recently started begging for another piercing and I'd say no, no, no. And then she turned 14. And I said, Oh, yeah. Okay. And then when I researched this, I just said, yeah, do what you want, you know, belly button. I mean, I don't care, as long as you can keep it clean, because the cleanliness and the place you go to is critical. And she said, Wait, hang on a sec. So how have you changed your mind? And I said, okay, because before I wasn't ready, so I admitted that it was all about me. Because I said you might be you might my last child and my baby and she said, Mommy, it'll always be your baby.

Susie Asli: 31:24

And showing her that you can change your mind.

Rachel Richards: 31:26

Yes, exactly. And then the other thing I said was, because I was too lazy, I admitted that I just said, you know, the thing is, you've got to think about it. And I just didn't, I couldn't be asked to think about it. So I just kept pushing it back and not. So

Susie Asli: 31:38

again, showing how you're human.

Rachel Richards: 31:41

And I am naturally fairly conservative. So I'm a kind of, you know, please don't do things that are just going to stay with you for the rest of your life. So, but that said, my big thing is grooming. So brushing your hair, cleaning your finger, and under your fingernails, doing up your shoelaces, those sorts of things. I keep saying to them, you know, this is about showing self respect. And if you walk into a room and you haven't bothered to make any effort, then people will make decisions about you based on that. And that's not a good thing. So and again, it I guess it is about what other people think of you, but also I think we need to learn to have respect for ourselves. So it's just about kind of, you know, the, I'm listening to myself say this to you about this hilarious. I find it hilarious, I shouldn't, I'm sure because some people are very exercised about it. But in France at the moment, there's a huge political Rao going on. It was in Elle Magazine this month, I think, where mothers and daughters are pitted against each other because the daughters are accessing Instagram, things like that. And you know, for example, Madonna grew her underarm hair, and then her daughter started doing it. And these, these girls are not shaving or waxing or anything, any of the things that they traditionally do, whether it's underarm hair, leg hair, and they're still wearing short skirts, and they're still going out in public like this. And the mothers are clutching their pearls and just saying, Oh, love is terrible. And the the complaints they're using are this isn't hygienic. Or they're saying interesting, as if not shaving is not hygienic, because guys don't shave these things. So I don't really understand how that is clean. And one mother in particular was saying she has an older daughter who takes off everything which she finds very sinister and a bit too influenced by the porn on the internet. And the other daughter who refuses to remove any of her hair and says, you know, my mum is caught in this web of of society's values that are making her have to do all this grooming that's really unpleasant.

Susie Asli: 33:47

It's interesting, isn't it? And I imagine and I'm not an expert on it by any stretch of the imagination. But I imagine in France, it's more extremes in here because people do have hair hidden, it's a bit off. And yeah, it's sort of a choice thing. Whereas maybe in other cultures, it's there, it's more of a norm to still to shave off all the hair if you're if you're a woman or underarm and stuff like that. So it's again, rebelling against the norm. If it's a really strong opinion, then there will be rebellion against it. If it's a bit more fluid than theirs. You don't need to rebel. Yes.

Rachel Richards: 34:21

And I mean, I know in Germany when I was traveling as a teenager, I remember meeting German girls who had underarm hair and leg hair, and I was Yeah, and but I quite liked it because it felt very liberating. I didn't do it.

Susie Asli: 34:36

No. But again, it's I mean, I've reacted a bit like that, and then caught myself and going, Oh, why am I reacting? Like why? It's just my norm. And then it's all about awareness. Again, we come back again and again to awareness what it What's your own opinion of it? And have you sat with that and what do you think and then you make a choice? Yes. I know how we actually had somebody else

Rachel Richards: 34:56

how much of it is our fear of being judged by our scripture and our society. And does that matter?

Susie Asli: 35:03

Yeah. And fear of the parents, you know, the my teenager does that. What's everyone going to think of my parenting? Yes. Yes. Yeah, exactly.

Rachel Richards: 35:11

Ways that we can discuss this is pick a time to talk. So actually make it something where you're prepared to talk calmly, and you're not going to be interrupted. Listen to your child, and talk. Let them talk about what it why why do you want this thing? So we're gonna come on to tattoos and because I love that subject, but why do you want this body piercing or this you know this hair or, and then talk about your own feelings. It teenagers will listen to us when we're honest about our feelings and explain why it matters to us. It doesn't necessarily mean they'll follow it, but they will take more they will pay more attention when we're being honest. Yeah, rather than pretending it it's absolutely a hard rule. Because they'll just come up

Susie Asli: 35:55

with an arbitrary rule. That's just how we do it. If they if we if we have an opinion behind it, that's that's much more accessible for them.

Rachel Richards: 36:01

Yes. And I think when you're listening to them, they're much more likely to listen to you and your feelings about it. You need to discuss, you know, hair doesn't matter what any of those things, but there are legal issues with piercings and tattoos. And they vary. So you mentioned last time that 18 is the legal age here. It varies. So in order to Yeah, different states have different ideas. Same with America. Same with different countries. And they also involve consent. So with piercing intimate parts require parental consent, consent up to them. Yeah, I mean, but here's the thing. So my stepdaughter had her tongue pierced. Yeah, I wasn't there. I wouldn't have chosen to be there. I don't think she asked me. And we had to suffer several years of her, you know, with this piercing in her tongue rolling around in her mouth, clicking on the teeth, and just I hated it. But I you know, I wasn't going to say anything. I just let her get on with it. And eventually, she got a boyfriend who said That's disgusting. Take it. Truth is, she's fantastic at her job, and really quite high powered. Yeah. And she said, I couldn't wear that in the job I'm in but she would, but I can't. So you know. So it doesn't mean that they're going to be like that forever. So don't panic. catastrophize. Now that he's, what are your thoughts about tattoos? Well,

Susie Asli: 37:28

in this country, it's 18. So my opinion and on anything bodily. And I have brought my kids up to really feel that, you know, their body is theirs. And what they want to do with it is their choice within limits, obviously. But tattoos, because it's 18. Here, they're an adult by then. So that's actually none of my business what they do with their body when they're an adult.

Rachel Richards: 37:51

And I'm, I'm scratching my head, scratching, building up for a disagreement. So I've got a font

Susie Asli: 37:58

I can guide though I can guide and I can advise, I guess I would and I will write but it's their decision. Okay?

Rachel Richards: 38:04

No. And yes, that helped. Because so I have a friend struggling spends all her days, removing tattoos. So she's a fascinating person to talk to. And I called her because I thought she's perfect because she has denatured as as well. So she said, Look, I the majority of people who come to my salon, it, it's not an eyebrow tattoo, you know, because people having eyebrows and their eyeliners. It's not those people, the majority of people who come to me to have a tattoo removed, had it done on their 18th birthday to piss off their parents. So she said, knowing that I've taken a different approach with my teenagers, which was, absolutely, if you would like a tattoo, then that's fine with me. But first of all, you need to come and watch tattoos being removed. And the reason for that is it really hurts Yeah. And it's also actually quite expensive. And if your skin is anything other than very fair, it can score so you can be left with this for the rest of your life. So the other thing is that the problem with 18 is that I remember being 18. And I definitely don't like the same things that I liked when I was 18. So the problem is choosing at that age and knowing that you're going to live with that. So her advice was 20 fives the age because she said she doesn't get people coming in who had tattoos over the age of 25. And it's interesting because people do have people who do have tattoos. Actually quite a large number go on to have more tattoos because they really enjoy it. They enjoy the process, the thrill and the investment. That's a whole different thing. But you know, these are the people who come in and have the smaller tattoos. She's just said look, 25 And that's when she said that we both went, ah, because that's when the prefrontal cortex is developed right and they can make a decision make good decisions. She also said, if your teen is going to go down this route, her attitude is you need to follow tattoo artists, you need to go to the conventions, see them, see them at work and see the way that they do it. Think about it, this is like buying a house, I mean, you're doing something quite permanent. And it's even more permanent. But also, she said, if you call the person and they have availability, within the next six months, don't go to them, because she said, all the good tattoo artists are booked up six months at minimum in advance. So you really want to be if you're going to make a decision like that, I think it's worth you know, as soon as they start talking about it, go through that stuff with them and tell them that they really need to be following tattoo nightmares on YouTube. So they can see all the stuff that can go wrong not to say I'm not trying to put you off. I'm just trying to make you aware. Because you know, the Greeks, the Romans, the Egyptians, they all did this. It's not it's not a brand new thing. But it's become more taboo, because, you know, it was only the sailors and military personnel who were embracing it. And, you know, body art in England, and in quite a few Western cultures is not really except we didn't workplace so

Susie Asli: 41:18

while little I think it's that's changing a bit.

Rachel Richards: 41:21

For some, but when some definitely yeah, definitely, definitely.

Susie Asli: 41:25

My eldest was kind of few years ago, he's only 17. Like, he's like all tattoo, that'll be fine. And we just talked about it. And I see my role as advisory and definitely, definitely, when they get to 18, they're an adult. So you know, even if they don't like the idea, it's, it's that it's their body. I feel quite strongly about that. But I can definitely advise and say, you know, have you thought about maybe having a smaller one? Or have you thought about what you'll do at work, you know, so that they have all the information. But if you're not, if they're having to push against you, because you've got no, then you know, they might go to have one just for the hell of it. Work Exactly. Like your friend said, yeah. So it's an advisory role in all, in all aspects, so that the transition from late teens into adulthood, we are advising, you know, we can have strong, you can you nudge quite strongly. But you know, it's it's not really our choice, I don't think no, and

Rachel Richards: 42:19

there's no harm in saying I basically, I don't like x y Zed. But that's, that's not to say that it is not. Because if you put it in that way, then rather than a reaction to you, they taking on board that oh, there were other people who may see it differently. And also reminding them that the workplace is much more flexible now. But the majority of people in the workplace are older. The older people actually, I saw something saying that millennials have more tattoos than said generation. So it's kind of like, and then it's it's dipped again,

Susie Asli: 42:52

it was very trendy, wasn't it? Yeah, I mean, I definitely by 18. It's they're an adult, it's that's not our job anymore. I feel

Rachel Richards: 42:59

no. And if they're going to do it again, consider cover ups. You know, how do you cover it? If you don't, you know, if you're not going to want to show it. Avoid names?

Susie Asli: 43:08

Yeah. Especially your partners. Because it might not be to say, I'm gonna love him

Rachel Richards: 43:12

forever. And one, one last question that intrigued me was, where do you think which nation has the most tattoos?

Susie Asli: 43:22

Yeah, you've told me, I go to Germany and

Rachel Richards: 43:27

Italy. Surprise me. Although I did go on holiday to Purulia, which is in the heel of the boot of Italy. And we stayed at this most lovely hotel, it was quite expensive. And we went to the swimming pool. And I think just every single person around the swimming pool had big tattoos. Yeah. And it shocked me because it's not really so it wasn't really socially acceptable here, although it's become more socially socially acceptable here. Yes. And there are certain ones that means certain things that

Susie Asli: 44:03

but that shows it's a cultural thing as well as a cultural thing. I'm sure you know, you do what you do what everyone around you does. So that's why it's really important that, you know, teenagers aren't having too much pressure, that they're really getting the information, getting the advice, and then they can then they can make their own choices.

Rachel Richards: 44:20

Yes. And one last thing I read was that women and other minorities just like swearing, they're more likely to experience negative effects of having Visible Ink and the word contrasting Yeah, which is really annoying. Yes, but important to know.

Susie Asli: 44:34

So they can probably have a pretty little flower. Yeah, flowers. Okay, but maybe not, I guess. But yeah. Not so big anchor on there.

Rachel Richards: 44:43

Oh, my goodness. Yes. Are you in it or would it never cross your mind? We'd love to hear your thoughts. You can find us on Facebook, Instagram or help at teenagers untangle.com. In our next episode, we'll talk about lying and teenagers. Why are they doing it and how should we react? Also, does your teen accuse you of letting the younger siblings get away with murder whilst the older one has to do all the work in breaking down barriers? Yes, never heard that.

Susie Asli: 45:14

Pretty much every day

Rachel Richards: 45:16

pretty much and I'm Maricopa. That's it for now. Don't forget to subscribe so that you don't miss an episode review us so that other people can find us more easily. Tell your friends and send us any questions that you have. We're also on Instagram or Facebook and Susie's own website which is Susie Ashley mindfulness.co.uk. Until next time, goodbye. Goodbye for now.