16: Boy friendships and supporting our sons in forming positive friendships, and what the %#*!😳 we should do about swearing?

Rachel Richards: 0:02

Hello, I'm Rachel Richards former BBC correspondent parenting coach mother of two teenagers and two older stepdaughters. Hi, I'm

Susie Asli: 0:09

Susie Asli. Mindfulness coach and mother of three teenagers two of them are twins.

Rachel Richards: 0:15

Susie, do you swear or cast as they call it in America?

Susie Asli: 0:19

Yep, I do.

Rachel Richards: 0:21

Okay, well, you ever threatened with having your mouth washed out with soap? Yes, as a child I was gonna happen or I was threatened with it. I don't know if it's true around the world. I wonder what other cultures would threaten with children where they think that they are? They're not showing enough respect for the abuse, isn't it? Well, Claudia, Claudia wants to know what to do when your teen swears at you and cause you a bitch. So we'll talk more about swearing later, including what the most popular swear words are the science of swearing, and how we should respond as parents. But first, Susie impostor syndrome is a real problem for some parents, isn't it? Yeah, absolutely. I'm bringing it up because Mike has posted a review of our lovely podcast. Thank you, Mike and was on LinkedIn. And he says as a single parent who regularly suffers from imposter syndrome. These podcasts are essential listening, and fun and enjoyable as well. Thank you, Mike.

Susie Asli: 1:14

Thank you very much, really

Rachel Richards: 1:15

appreciate we love it. We love a good review. So thank you for that. So it's lovely to get a review from a father. I've been raving about the book, it's a good time to be a girl by Helena Morrissey, who's an immensely successful business woman with a husband at home doing the work to keep her large family going. And I think it's really important that we have visible male role models who are playing active roles as parents, what do you think Suzy?

Susie Asli: 1:37

Yeah, massively important for our boys. I think when they're younger, most of the caregivers are, you know, in schools and wherever they are. Female, not all of them. I mean, some a lot of schools have lots of male teachers now, but I think the proportion is still women.

Rachel Richards: 1:51

Yeah, I remember you saying before that you struggled with, you know, the you were on your own, and you were looking for people, yes,

Susie Asli: 1:57

I actively looked, especially for my eldest, because I was in a parenting on my own, and they do see their dad, but it's not very often and looking for male role models, male figures that they can mirror, they need it, they really need it, I really struggled with that.

Rachel Richards: 2:11

So in Episode 10, we talked about teenage friendship groups, mostly from the viewpoint of girls. And it was hugely popular and something many parents have struggled with. So we've now been asked by our listener, Sarah to talk about why boys are so mean to each other. Now, obviously, she's got a perspective, because she's had problems with male friendship groups. And I've heard from quite a few parents about how difficult it can be Susie, you have to I have none. I like boys, but I don't have any. And I have friends who've got all boys in their family, and I love the energy in their house. But it does feel very different from mine.

Susie Asli: 2:50

It's very different. I mean, boys are very different. I have a sister and so having boys was like, Oh, I don't know how to do that. And just from a very early age, they are very different. They, they interact very differently. Obviously massively stereotyping, there are boys who are, you know, like, you know, it's a massive stereotype. But in my family, even when they were little, and I have twins, or boy, girl twins, so it's really it was been really fun to see the difference. So from an early age, my boy twin would be like picking up toys to try and fix them or to drive them and look at the how the wheels are working. And my daughter would be picking up the ones with faces and interacting and making stories. So from a really early age, there's a huge difference. And I think as teenagers, there is still differences. There are, you know, calm massively common traits of humanity as well, obviously, but the way they interact with their friends is is really different. And my boys are very different in personality and in nature. And the way they have friends is very different to but I think generally, in my experience, their friendships are activity based. So you know, kick a football around, you're gonna do something together a game together, do something together, whereas girls, they seem to hang out in a different way. A different focus somehow.

Rachel Richards: 4:09

It's a very interesting topic, because we are having a lot of debate at the moment about, you know, the difference between boys and girls and how there isn't that much difference when people look at the underpinning psychology and the way their brains work. And the truth is, though, that we are nurtured as well as a genetic imprint. And it's very hard to unpick exactly what's going on there. What it will say is that I saw a headline in UK Men's Health magazine, saying a third of men have no close friends with peak loneliness occurring it at the age of 35. Now, obviously, nobody wants this scenario. This is not healthy for society. It's not good for the men that end up in this situation. And I thought it was a good place to start just because then we could sort of roll the clock back and say, Well, so what was going on earlier in their lives where they just weren't able to form these close friendships, or maybe that they just didn't seem them as important. There's an amazing woman called Niobe way and then popped up everywhere. And she spent decades studying boys friendship groups during adolescence. Now, this was in America, although curiously, she had a cohort in China. So very, very different culture. Yeah. And I think that the culture does have an impact to an extent just because, for example, when I went traveling around India, as a teenager, backpacking with my girlfriend, I was really struck by how men and young men, just men generally would walk around holding hands. This is not something we do in England, America. So there are strong cultural differences in different countries. Yeah,

Susie Asli: 5:46

I lived in Denmark for for years. And I think the culture fit with men is different there as well. I haven't lived there for for quite a few years now. So I don't know how it is right now. But my memory is that you know, mental more about feelings. I think we're quite traditional here still

Rachel Richards: 6:02

interesting. We says that 85% of the American boys she interviewed over the past 20 plus years, suggest that their closest relationships, especially during early and middle adolescence, share the plot of love story more than plot up, say, Lord of the Flies. And the problem is we get the impression that boys are quite Lord of the Flies, because that's the sort of cultural information we've been getting from that particular book, but all sorts of other things.

Susie Asli: 6:28

Yeah, that's not my experience with my boys. And they're very different with their friendships. So my eldest is he's, he has, you know, a handful of close friends and my younger is what we call him party boy at home at the moment, is a constant stream of friends through the house, which I love, it's brilliant. But he he's still, you know, they don't seem to have that they they all seem really, really nice to each other, which is just banter and all of that. And yeah, there's a lot of humor. I think, maybe the difference. I mean, my daughter laughs with her friends, too. But it's, it seems to be different. There's a lot of banter and, and humor seems to be, you know, social capital. If you're funny, you're then then you are, you're an important member of the group. More than with girls, I think.

Rachel Richards: 7:13

Although my girls say that that's actually really important. To be funny, they need to be funny. But here's the problem. Things start to fall apart when they're hit by media messages of masculine expectations. I mean, she tells a story of how seventh grade boys at a New York City Academy sniggered when she told them about a teen who loved his best friend, her response was, what would you say if I told you that about 85% of boys feel this way about a friend during their teen years? And one boy said what for real? And she said, Yeah, boys want close friendships where they can share their secrets. And what happened then was she'd given them permission. And they to be this was normal. And it changed the relationship in the room, and everybody started being more open about their feelings. So in many ways, is about normalizing this, you know, emotional life that boys have, they need to be given permission, at a young age to have these conversations. And for it to be socially acceptable, because I think we all girls and boys, because I don't think they're different in this respect, when they hit adolescence, they're hit with all these emotions and these new ways of having to relate to each other. And they need the language for it. Yes. And they also think they're weird.

Susie Asli: 8:27

Yeah, they need they use the wrong language. And and I've heard it so many times, you know, I think it's a fear of intimacy. Like what you're describing, like, if if boys are suddenly seem to be close, that's a bit of a Oh, is that? Is that okay? Is that not okay? So we better? We better, right? They need to distance themselves from that there's the fear of the intimacy for for some reason, and if we can normalize it, like you're saying, from this lady in the book, then I think that's really, really important for them.

Rachel Richards: 8:52

Yes. And what she found was that there is man box, just like you have a girl box, you know, where we talked about in the girlfriend, Chip groups, that they have a beauty pageant, and they all entered into it, they don't have any choice about it. The boys are all entered into this man box. And we said when there's a group and it's defined by the strong boy in the group, you know, you have to fit into that. Otherwise, you're not in the group. And there's a general man box, and we all know what's probably in that man box, right? You're tall, good looking strong, you know, and sporty, sporty, funny. And if you don't fit into one of those things, you've got a bit of a problem.

Susie Asli: 9:28

Yeah, I think that it's changed a bit. So I mean, I totally recognize that I think it's shifting a bit that there seems to be sort of alternative man men boxes. And they can look a bit different and you can be in that as well. But so it's not as black and white, but there is still a tendency to to be if you're sporty or naturally cool.

Rachel Richards: 9:47

Yes. And what she found was that this sport is this switch where boys go from this very intimate, happy, comfortable relationships you found it tends to happen around the age of 15 and on where they just they've suddenly gone through this phase of adolescence, and they're now uncomfortable, am I being too intimate with this person. And she said, that is very protective. If they are in the man box, those, those boys are allowed to be more comfortable with discussing their emotions, and the ones who are on slightly on the outside, I feel less safe.

Susie Asli: 10:20

Yeah. And they don't know how they don't know how to how to they don't know what to do or how to do it. It's just awkward. So they don't do it, and then they just muck about instead.

Rachel Richards: 10:29

And that's such a great point, because there is a listening project, which was set up by no be way at New York University. And her co creator is called dose of Derrick Nelson, both of whom are trying to challenge these stereotypes that boys feel they have to fit into. And what they're doing there is they're trying to teach boys how to be curious about each other. So you don't have to keep saying how you feel. Or it's more about, you know, what did you think about this? Oh, you thought that? And then how do you ask a deep question that then proves their thinking? How do you and actually this improves relationships? Full stop, right?

Susie Asli: 11:06

Yeah. Yeah.

Rachel Richards: 11:08

Because, you know, often I ask, my husband will go out with his friend, and I'll say, so um, how was it? Because he is great. It's great. And I say so you know, he's going through a divorce. How is he? And he goes, I don't know. Yeah. Which is not very helpful. Because surely you can't ask his friends or can't talk to his friends about it. Who is he talking to? about it? Exactly. Do we need to buy counselors for everything?

Susie Asli: 11:29

Yeah, absolutely. I think also, I experienced with my boys and with friends, as well as there are different feelings that are more or less acceptable for boys and girls, like, anger still seems to be acceptable. Yeah. If you're angry as a boy, then that that's okay. That frustrations, yeah, you can go and kick something, or punch a wall. Whereas, you know, for girls, anger is seen as all you know, she was a bit feisty, she still I think it's changing, it is changing, thank goodness. And that, I don't know what to call them. But you know, the softer feelings, the softer emotions are still seen as something boys would rather not express very generally. That is shifting, I think. Yeah. But there is still a difference.

Rachel Richards: 12:12

I think it's only shifting because there are people actively like, yeah, like Nairobi way and her cohort, actively trying to push against it. And I saw an amazing piece, I forget the name of the man, I saw him on Twitter. And he was talking about how when he saw some of her work, he read her book, it something went off inside him. And he just realized how he had been manipulated by society to think a certain way and behave a certain way and how punishing it was for him as a human being. Yeah, so it's not something we want. Yeah,

Susie Asli: 12:43

no, because anger, even even looking on that level, if we look at anger, being an acceptable emotion, is a secondary emotion. So anger is a response or a reaction to something that is, you know, further down, maybe that sadness or pain or, you know, something that is maybe not something they want to express immediately. So, you know, it's really important that they, they're allowed to, or they feel able to express all of it,

Rachel Richards: 13:07

there are two really great things I would urge people to watch if this is a subject that touches them, one is the Mask You Live in which I came across because of this research. And they use it in this program in New York, to help boys just get a sense of what it is that's been just thrown at them by the media. And it's things like man, OB, you know, grow a pair, or you all the little and it's the same stuff I was talking about with social media with our girls, where I constantly will mention things I see on Instagram On Facebook, or you know, in films. And there's this one wonderful woman lalala. Let me explain who will pick out these things, which we don't notice, until she says to have you noticed that? Yeah. And I think we need to do this with boys, too. We need to say, Did you see what that they've just said there? How does that make you feel? Did you feel that that's true. And the men need to be like that of adolescent boys really like that. And give them the chance to sort of reflect on whether they've been given messages that aren't helpful. And talk about how they relate to that. And I think that gives them a contract gives you a window into being able to say, Look, don't you feel manipulated? Yeah, that's

Susie Asli: 14:24

a really good point. I'm going to use that I'm going to have a look at that. Because it's really, really important for them to reflect upon what it is they're taking in. They actually think about all these things, because we don't even know if we don't we don't know. So if you don't

Rachel Richards: 14:38

think about exactly, and I know I was quite sexist growing up unwittingly, because I was growing up in an environment that was very sexist and it slowly took me time to unpack an awful lot of the things I've been told were right and just were actual biases.

Susie Asli: 14:54

Yeah, I'm just thinking about my own boys. I mean, I don't experience with them which is really lovely and having the Conversation is making me think about how they are. They do seem to really care about their friends. And I don't know what conversations they have, because obviously, I'm not allowed in them. But they don't seem to be this kind of care about it, which is really lovely. But I have said to mine, because I think with boys, we have to be really careful. Because they tend to generally not speak and that awful statistic you gave at the beginning of you know, that they don't have close friends, a lot of them. And we know the health consequences that can have later in life, you know, the suicide rates for boys is a horrific for men, you know, it's the biggest, I think it's the biggest killer of in that in an age bracket things 25 to something. I mean, it's horrific. And, you know, loneliness plays a huge, huge role in that and friends, you know, counteract that. So, you know, keeping an eye on their friends, especially in lockdown, you know, keeping an eye out, because it's really quick, I think girls, you see, and this is massive generalization, but you tend to see a sort of a deterioration or sort of a shutting down not always but generally, and boys that can be really quick. You know, they're and because they often I mean, my eldest does, you know, shuts himself away in games, I didn't really know what's going on in there. If I can hear him laughing and mucking about, it's probably alright. But you know, keeping an eye on them, because it can be really quick from feeling okay to not feeling okay. And then to feeling really not okay, so you know, keep an eye on your mates. Yeah, I

Rachel Richards: 16:26

love that. I love that message. Because actually, what you're doing is rather than saying How you feeling encouraging them to use those words to help their mates? Yeah. And that's a very, that's actually a position of power. If you're helping your friend, it gives you a sense of ownership on it. And that's, that's a really good point. So what can we do as parents, one of the things one of the ways into this is talking about sports and intimacy, because sports is a really big bonding experience for most boys. And, you know, when they help their friend, who, when they're struggling with, you know, passing or any of those things, you frame it and say, Look, that's brilliant that your pet, you know, you've noticed a weakness in your friend, you're supporting them, you can actually just use sports to and say, hey, it's great to be able to hug

Susie Asli: 17:11

or the non sporty boys they have, you know, there's the sporty boys. And then there's the, you know, the geeks, which they call themselves, you know, the computer guys, which mine is one of, and they have their own, you know, way of bonding, but that's also bonding,

Rachel Richards: 17:25

yes, really important. Teaching them how to recognize their friends boundaries. I mean, boys love banter. And, but they need to start to understand the difference between ribbing and Huertas. And this is one of the ways in which things can tip into you know, and that's a very, that's a literally a flip. You know, it's a switch. And it can be it can go from them having a great time to the boy feeling like he's been destroyed. Yes. And so it's about talking to them about did you notice what happened there? You know, when would you stop? When? When do you? How do you? How do you recognize when your mates had enough? Yeah, getting them to think it through before it becomes a problem?

Susie Asli: 18:03

Because they can be brutal. I've seen it. And they're really funny, like, really funny. Oh, my

Rachel Richards: 18:10

goodness, yeah, that has

Susie Asli: 18:11

so much weight that you think the funny guys you know, we want to hear from the funny guy, but they can you know, they can be brutal. They need to be really aware of that.

Rachel Richards: 18:20

Yes. And if they do cry, capitalizing on those says exploit saying is you're feeling a strong emotion right now. And and you probably go out of your way to hide it. That's okay. You know, good for you just give it a give yourself some space and some releases. Yes, given that, yes, exactly. I'm giving them an emotional vocabulary so that they can recognize because we've been talking about lots of these things, and we've talked about it with golf friendships, and and we've talked about it with self harm. And so often, the reason they end up down these horrible alleyways is they don't know how to express or they can't shape their emotions or frame them. And they don't know how to express them and say, I'm struggling with this or, and they can't even talk to themselves about it. So they just find another outlet. Yeah,

Susie Asli: 19:08

I've tried to tell I remember talking to a boy who I knew really well, you know, how's he doing? Because see, there was something he was up and I tried on various occasions, and because he wasn't used to that language or used to that, you know, it was almost like, what are you doing? Why would I answer that? Or, you know, kind of rolling eyes you please, please leave this space? So it's really if they don't have that language at all, it's quite hard.

Rachel Richards: 19:32

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But they notice it, and completely different story. But when I was a teenager, I went to stay at a girl's house. And this happened to be a regular thing because my parents couldn't get me or wouldn't get me to thing I wanted to go to. And I very specifically remember sitting around the table, and the father turning to me and saying, how was your day? And I nearly fainted because I'd never had I had a man, an older man asked me that question. In fact, my mother never asked me that question either. But it was mostly that I was shocked that he even noticed that I was at the table. And the point being that I didn't talk to anybody about it. I didn't really even think a huge amount about it at that moment. But it had a massive impact on me, because it made me see that there were different ways of having relationships. So if you have that conversation, if you whether a woman or a man can actually just give them the chance to see that there is a different way of relating, it can have the most extraordinary impact the you may never see, yes, you're

Susie Asli: 20:37

sowing seeds that are there are other options of being in the world, you can be different. Yeah, that's really important.

Rachel Richards: 20:43

And being physically demonstrative. I mentioned this before, where my ex boyfriends dad used to hold his hand. And I know that your son doesn't like that. But I'm hoping the police aren't listening. But I do try holding my daughter's hand when we're going really slowly. But she loves it. She wants that contact she likes. And that's not the same necessarily with boys. But what we need to recognize is that when boys are going through this phase, they may be really hunched over and not, you know, the language body language may be wrong, but yeah, actually, keep trying.

Susie Asli: 21:12

Yeah. Just like a pat on the back. I mean, that sounds a bit weird. But just I have two boys, and one of them is really Huggy and physical. So that's cool. The other one is really not. So you know, I just touch his back as I'm walking past or, or, you know, his arm or something, if we're cooking, or you know, just a little, little thing. And that's connection to Yeah, you just have to give me a full on hug, although I do kind of encourage that.

Rachel Richards: 21:38

You can try. But just keep the door open. You know, we all Yeah, we have to respect that some

Susie Asli: 21:44

people can you can connect in other tiny ways, and that actually, they make a big difference? Yeah, I think it's also really important that when our boys bring their friends home, that they feel comfortable at home. And I think I my experience, and it might be different for the boys is they they're a bit different from girls at home. And they, they find any, depending on the boy, but you have to be careful that you're not mothering them.

Rachel Richards: 22:13

interest. And if

Susie Asli: 22:15

I go to mine, you know, have you done your homework or, you know, just, you know, my kids are fine, and their friends are really lovely, I really like their friends. So I actually have to kind of try and not just sit and chat with their friends, because that's weird, that they're really nice. But that is something that maybe would make them not want to hang out in the home. And I think it's really important that they have spaces they can hang out in and be in a home and feel comfortable there. And also, you know, the the classic and that applies to girls as well, if they, you know, other people's parents can give something a different dynamic to the child. And then you know, parenting, the parents might be fine, but they also might not have a mother who's particularly understanding or a father who's there. So going into somebody else's home can be can be really lovely experience for them. But But kind of leave them alone a bit, you know, just give them the pizzas. And I'm really bad at that. I like chatting to them. But it's they still seem to feel safe anyway. Yes. But you know, don't bother them.

Rachel Richards: 23:17

Yeah, love that. I love that. Finally really coaching them in ways of being assertive and savvy without responding with aggression. So I was listening to a chap called Lennox Rogers from a crime prevention organization refocus, and he said that when they look at the instances in which adolescents use knives, so many of them are triggered by small events. And we need our boys to be given other ways of communicating and understanding their emotions so that they can control them better and deal with difficult situations without stabbing somebody. I know it's not always easy, because I remember another friend's son going through, you know, episodic bullying, and the response of the men in his life were well, you know, basically, you need to get him in the canteen. Where are the lots of other kids? Punch him on the nose? Make sure it because if that makes them cry, and keep going until he's on the ground, and you will be punished by the teachers, but he won't touch you again.

Susie Asli: 24:14

Wow. Do we not have any alternatives to that?

Rachel Richards: 24:17

Listen to this. Oh, really? Have we not moved on from this at all?

Susie Asli: 24:22

Some people would still say that. Yeah, well, they know they do.

Rachel Richards: 24:28

Yeah, yeah. So I think we need to try and give, you know, other alternatives. Yeah. And

Susie Asli: 24:34

I think I think the main thing is for teenagers is, you know, too big word normalizing. Yeah. They want to be the same as everybody else they want to belong. And if they think everybody is doing this way, then they will do that too. If they think everybody is cool with their mates and is talking about stuff, they might actually try it. You know, it's the getting the norm to change a bit in

Rachel Richards: 24:58

their eyes and it's Use it with some kids and not others. Because, you know, one of my daughters is totally cool with who she is and doesn't really care what other people say. The other one just tells me, you know, back off, you don't understand this is how teenagers are and you just, you just have to keep going.

Susie Asli: 25:14

Yeah, and model it, isn't it and and talk to them. But you know, as we've talked about many times in in short bursts, I have my timer of two minutes when I'm talking to my boys if I want to say something particular because they glaze over after sentence for you know, just little things like that. And you know, mirror picking up on all that must feel like this. If they say something instead of going in, how do you feel about that feeling because they just roll.

Rachel Richards: 25:38

And I've just suddenly thought I have been obsessively listening to a podcast called Diary of a CEO. And it's, I've not forgotten the name of the person who does it. But he is very in contact with his feelings about work and about, you know, people running companies. And he's fascinating to listen to, because he interviews all these different people like the guy who set up Strava. And so So young adolescent boys will listen to something like this, if you give it give them give it to them. And because it's fascinating seeing the inside workings of somebody who's an entrepreneur, but he goes right back to their childhoods. And it gives you such a wonderful opportunity to let them hear somebody who's very successful. Talk about their own feelings and thoughts and how their childhood shaped them and I love something like that. I think yes, it's very helpful for teenagers.

Susie Asli: 26:34

There's a lot of brilliant lady I read, read her book and listened to I think an audible few years ago, Maggie dent, and she talks about raising boys. She had four boys, I can't remember the name of the book, we can find it, put in the notes. And she gives lots of little tips and ideas and what actually one of hers was, you know, boys might not want to hug but you can just touch them as you're going past or, you know that kind of little things to because because they they need connection,

Rachel Richards: 26:59

which we all do. We're human beings we need it. Have your sons managed to sustain those close friendships as they grew up? Or have you noticed that familiar pattern where their friends drop away, it's never too late to talk about connectedness and there is so much supporting a new way of looking at masculinity now. You can post any comments on our Facebook group or Instagram or just email us at help at teenagers. untangled.com. Now Suzy, Claudia wants to know what to do when your teen swears at you and call to a bitch. I mean, I asked my daughter about the word and she said she and her girlfriends often use it as in Hey, bitch, I got my bitches. But it's the kanji that I could pass as a 14 year old girl. No problem. But before we go on quickfire question, are there some words that are definitely more offensive than others? Yes. Is it less offensive? If you are writing the word if you don't spell the whole word out? Or use an acronym like WTF? I think so. Yeah. Does it make a difference? Who uses the swear word?

Susie Asli: 28:07

As to how strong it is? Do

Rachel Richards: 28:08

you mean whether it's offensive?

Susie Asli: 28:10

Yeah, I think it was actually.

Rachel Richards: 28:13

What's peak swear word age?

Susie Asli: 28:16

Oh, I don't know. 1716?

Rachel Richards: 28:22

It's actually it's in their 20s, early 20s. But yes, I will sort of cover the other things as we go along. We had a couple of listener responses. Sarah says she swears in front of her kids, but it's never about anyone. It's not specific. She doesn't allow them to swear in general conversation, but gets that they will swim with their friends. And in text messages. Vicki thinks it's generally more common nowadays. She deals with teens who are in a foster situation. And they may have come from a household where it's really commonplace, so she doesn't bother picking them up on it unless it's really excessive. Or, you know, it's about someone else against someone. She says swearing at someone is about an attitude towards them. And she would definitely challenge that. Yeah. So swear words. So we've got we've got this fantastic English language. I'm sure you've Danish languages that have, you know, a lot of swearing. And Dana's Yeah, there

Susie Asli: 29:12

is it's really different in Denmark. They, they swear more, I think, I mean, I haven't lived there for a few years, but my memory of it is children would swear more. And they would use the English word so I won't say them here and they would put you to have a Danish accent. And they just less strong enough in a foreigner then what's the point? What because you're still having that release, okay. And they think stay English were the cool as well. So they would say them and they would use them quite young. More. I, if I swear I don't I mean, when I lived there, I would swear occasionally in Danish, but using my own language was way more felt much better.

Rachel Richards: 29:52

Very good point. And in fact, studies have shown that swearing in your original language is much more useful and powerful. Yeah, it has has all the beneficiaries. Yeah,

Susie Asli: 30:03

there was one ideas in Danish, but it was like starting with an F. So it just felt really good friends.

Rachel Richards: 30:09

Should we also want them to be an English language we have, you know the a word, the B word, the C word, the F word, the S word, the T word, the W word, lots of words, right. And I just, I, what I think is really interesting is when I've been talking to one particular mother, who, whose daughter had used a word to describe another girl in text. And when she was talking to me about it, she actually said, well, it wasn't when the mother accusers. She wasn't that word. It was this word. And that's a less offensive word than that. Okay. I just thought how interesting that actually that's the that's this, you know, is it? Is it? Is it the word the specific word you use? Or is it the context? You use it? In? What what actually really are we talking about here?

Susie Asli: 30:55

Yeah, I don't know. I think the key of it is because I'm quite We swear in our house we do. And tell lots of clean out. No, really? No, I know. And mine a bit older now. And we put the context is really important. So we have like a jokey, jokey way of swearing. And but I think, I think the key is, we have that, and that's my personal boundaries. I'm okay with that. And they know that, but I've also said to them, don't do this in other contexts, because, you know, people genuinely take offence at swearing and there's no judgment in that, you know, they're just different ways of being in the world with everything. And if, if you go out and you you know, swear, then you might really offend somebody. So don't do that. But in this space here is you know, we can muck about with it. Well, the

Rachel Richards: 31:46

interesting thing is, swear words by their very nature are supposed to be offensive, because if they're not offensive, then I'll swear words, yes. But what you've done is created a haven at home where they can be completely relaxed, using words that might other be off verboten in other places, but they can just use them at will.

Susie Asli: 32:04

Yes, yeah. She's

Rachel Richards: 32:05

doing interesting

Susie Asli: 32:06

with an awareness that you know, if if you do this and other places, people might be offended, and they you know, that's okay for them to be offended. You know, you don't need to think that they're daft. Or, you know, you're better because you swear, you know, that's ridiculous. It's just a different way of being.

Rachel Richards: 32:20

Yes. So what is a swear word? So there's a philosopher Rebecca Roach has it but people who are specialists in this it dedicate their lives to errors. She says they need to cause offence. So really, those words aren't swear words when they used in your house, because they didn't cause offence. So what you're doing is you're just banter. You're just the kind of part of your family banter.

Susie Asli: 32:42

Interesting thing. I mean, they kind of do, but it's in a jokey way. Yeah. Interesting. But if Yeah, they they're

Rachel Richards: 32:47

there to offend emotion. Around the world swear words tend to cluster around certain topics, we've got laboratorial matters, sex and religion, a religion used to be very strong. It may well still be in places like America, where there are very strong religious feelings in the UK, people have moved shifted quite a long way from religion, religious tradition. So those are much less potent swear words are taboo breaking for the sake of being taboo breaking. And the whole point is you're not supposed to use them. And they exist to break rules. Yes. That's about what I think you're doing. This is complete speculation is you are reinforcing your tribe, because your tribe is allowed to do this. This is the language of your tribe, and this is how you use things at home, but you say we're going to a different tribe, you have to understand that that tribe may not

Susie Asli: 33:38

express Yes, and we will, you know, put your finger up at each other and regularly as a kind of mucking about thing. But they also know that if they were to come up to me, and you know, swear at me seriously, and they one of them has done that. That's not okay. interest. And I told him, so. Yes.

Rachel Richards: 33:58

And how did that go down? What did you say?

Susie Asli: 34:01

I said, Don't ever speak to me like that again. That is completely unacceptable. And what did you What was it? What was his response? I had Grunty. Sort of All right, so

Rachel Richards: 34:15

anybody apologized?

Susie Asli: 34:16

I think so. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, no, that was that was a you know, you crossed a line? Yes. That's the intent. The intention behind this were tension.

Rachel Richards: 34:26

So context is tension. So the uses of swear words, so why are we doing this? I mean, apart from trying to cause offence, there are other things that come up with us now, for start. The word for example, in terms of a flu via shit is worse than piss. Okay, so there was there was a kind of, there's a grade and if you say spit, that's not a swear word. But these are all bodily, bodily fluids. So it's, it's really, it's really interesting that there is a kind of great of a swear word and what isn't, I'm sure I'm sorry. If I've offended anyone by using these words, but anyway, why are we doing this apart from these releasing these taboos, there is an emotional release, which can mitigate pain. Now what researchers have found is that it's easier to keep your arm in an ice cold water for longer if you're sweating the whole time. So it sounds actually have Yeah, so if you're feeling really bad, try going into a room and swearing you may find it actually helps whether it's both psychological and physical pain. This is a found distractions. Yeah, amazing. Yeah. And as you said, it's the doing it in your first language, don't bother with the second language, it's no use. The does not have the same effect. No, and the claim has been made that it is, you know, swearing is a way of bonding. So as I was saying that, actually, when you have teenagers who are swearing, you know, these parents who said, Oh, well, I know that they're going to do it. Of course, it's great. That's great parenting, because you understand that this is a way quite often, where teenagers will have their own sort of words that they use to swear. And there was an awful incident on Big Brother in the UK many, many years ago, when one of the contestants use the N word. No, yeah. And she said, but we all use it. But she didn't, she hadn't realized the extent to which it was a slur and utterly offensive to everybody else. And it was it was cringy. Because I just looked at this girl, I thought she was just ignorant. And, and this is a problem. So it's great if your kids bond together using these. But we have to say that, you know, you have to understand like you've said, there's a context, yes. And you need to be multilingual, you need to know that you go into this setting. And you actually people are considered to be more trustworthy who swear? It's really interesting. Because they're not they're not filtering.

Susie Asli: 36:49

Yes, yeah, there's an argument. I remember when my nephews were young in Denmark of, you know, allowing them to swear, and there was discussions about it. And that was the idea was that if they were not filtering, then then they had better vocabulary. I've no idea if that was the case or not.

Rachel Richards: 37:06

I think we need to go through all the Shakespearean books and really good swear words. Yes, come up with some interesting ones. And then you could be the next person. Because

Susie Asli: 37:16

you know, when you try and find alternatives, don't you remember, my kids were little and you know, I didn't I didn't want them swearing out in public when they were little, because that's really bad for them. And trying to find alternative words, and they're just never sat?

Rachel Richards: 37:29

No, not because they don't perform the function. And it's interesting, because one research has found that the most used word 20 years ago was bloody. Yeah. And that's changed. It's not the F word. And he says, he thinks the reason for that. And he's actually trolled through 1000s of hours of transcripts. Amazing job. And he's found that the great thing with the F word is that it can be used as a suffix or, you know, you can you can add things to it in the same way that the ship word. Yeah. So I don't see I'm not offended by that word, but maybe other people really are. Anyway, you know, and in Ireland, people often say, Oh, you're such a gobshite. Yeah. And it's, it's not even considered, you know, that rude, but it's, I think it's as because it's connected with other words, and then is it really a sweat? So? So there's a kind of like, what did we talk? What is the swear whether it's offensive

Susie Asli: 38:25

is subject, it's just all subjective, isn't enough to have this awareness of what, you know, ask yourself what's what do I think is acceptable? You know, tell your family that these are the boundaries and this family if that's appropriate, and and then give them an awareness that that might not be the case in other areas and NFU kind of worrying that they might not be able to control? I think by the time they get to teenagers, they are able to filter it out when they're little, maybe not, but they know they can they they you know, you see them all the time they talk to their teacher in a different way. They talk to their mates, they know they know they're aware of it.

Rachel Richards: 39:00

But one of the interesting ones for me is Taiwanese leader who used the F word on Twitter talking about the Chinese government, and and yet there was a pylon, but he said, Well, what else am I supposed to say to make them understand? Right? So, you know, he said, it's a very useful, effective way of showing just how angry I am and how little I accept his viewpoint.

Susie Asli: 39:20

And to get a lot of attention and get a lot of

Rachel Richards: 39:22

attention. Yes. And what's interesting is one study showed that swearing is still considered more offensive depending on the identity of the swear word. Now, if you're a woman, it's considered six times more obscene in this study, than if you're a man Gotti. And there was similar amounts if you are from an ethnic minority. So actually, I think a lot of it is connected to power. And if you're interested in a working setting you just because your CEO uses swear words. You're you're you're treading very carefully and you start using swear words to cuz you think oh, he uses them. You need to be very careful. Yeah. Because he may take, he may think, Oh, that's great. Or he may take offense.

Susie Asli: 40:06

Yeah, in a work setting, I want you to really careful because it's, it sounds really offensive when it's used by someone and yes.

Rachel Richards: 40:12

And it gets confusing because my first boss was a fat Geordie, sweaty man who just voice every three words it was Yeah. Is that how the Geordie speak? Well, I don't you know, and I just assumed that maybe that's how God spoke. I didn't know but and I sort of just had to accept it because he was my boss. And I didn't say, do you mind just toning it down a bit?

Susie Asli: 40:38

I wouldn't, I wouldn't swear my workplace like no, no.

Rachel Richards: 40:43

It's context base. Yes. So coming back to the question posed by Claudia and which is where her daughter had actually said to her, you know, caught her a bitch is really interesting, because it was one website, I looked at the very well family, managing disrespectful teams. And they said, Whatever the reason for swearing, it's clearly unacceptable. And you have to, you know, give them consequences for the inappropriate behavior and take away privileges and assign extra chores. And, and I just, I was interested in that. Because, you know, the truth is, I have never had any, none of my children is I've got full, none of them have ever, ever said anything like that to me. And I think part of it is our closeness part of it is that if they ever show me that, I think I've just always just use the stock phrase, don't be so ungrateful if if they, if they complain about things that I think and I think there's an element of them realizing, and I've told them about my part, and how, you know, how much I work to make sure their life is great. And I think they, they wouldn't dare to be to say something like that to me, because they know, I'd be very offended. And I'd only I didn't mind swearing at all. But I think if somebody said something like that to me, and meant it, it would be very painful. Yeah. So I can understand how she would feel that much pain. Yes.

Susie Asli: 42:19

And yeah, some people I mean, I when my my child swore at me in a in a serious way, that that was totally different from the mucking about stuff. And I think we have to maybe not take it too seriously, because maybe the child doesn't realize that, that it's causing such great offense. So you can have a great conversation currently, you know, when you say that, maybe you use that at home, and maybe it's, or not sorry, not at home, maybe you sit with your mates or wherever you've heard it. And it's not a big deal. But when you say that, that that's really offensive to me, and it's actually really hurtful. So please don't do that. And then maybe the kid doesn't even know that and goes along, you know, I'm sorry, I won't do that. So that's kind of step one, isn't it? If you don't know You're offending someone, then yeah, then you know, then it's very different. But if they do know they're offending, you know, that they're doing it deliberately, then then having that conversation, which will be a different one, you know?

Rachel Richards: 43:16

If they continue to be rude to you after that, what would you say they, their parent could do?

Susie Asli: 43:25

Well, it's not about the swear word, then is it? So the swear word is a signal, isn't it? Like most things, the swear word if they're deliberately doing it, and they know that using that, particularly word, particular word offends you, and a is hurtful, and they're using it anyway, then they're using the swear word as a signal that something is annoying them or something is ARP, or, and again, we don't have to, you know, we don't have to massively catastrophize it, it might just be a little thing they're really annoyed about, or there might be a you know, deeper, deeper thing going on. And investigating that with them. You know, we don't know what's going on. I noticed you said that word. You know, it offends me. What's you know, to want to tell me what's going on? What's what's happening? Why are you why are you so angry with me?

Rachel Richards: 44:07

Yeah. And it's so boring it and so rather than going straight to punishment, actually trying to unpack exactly what's going on? Because it is a signal. Yeah.

Susie Asli: 44:15

And then if you are really offended by the the particular swear word, you know, if you if you feel that's appropriate, you know, if you use that again, then you feel you want to do it that way, then then that would be a way but I would say if they're deliberately using that swear, and they know it's offending you. There's a reason behind it.

Rachel Richards: 44:32

But also, like, why is it so offensive to me? Yes, yeah,

Susie Asli: 44:36

check using it as an opportunity to say, you know, why is that particular word really triggering me? And then you might, you know, investigate that and find out Yes, it is really triggering, I won't have it that's fine. That's your boundary, or that it might be a really good opportunity to have a look at maybe there's something else going on there for you. You know, when we get triggered, whatever the trigger is all always an opportunity to investigate it and learn a bit more about ourselves.

Rachel Richards: 45:03

Yeah, love it. keep learning, keep learning. We're parenting ourselves, aren't we? Yeah. So are you a swear or a saint, we'd love to hear your? Well,

Susie Asli: 45:13

we all know where I am in that.

Rachel Richards: 45:16

I'd like everyone who's a saint to put the hand up. We'd love to hear your thoughts. You can find us on Facebook, Instagram, or help at teenagers untangle.com. In our next episode, is your child rude and disrespectful to you whilst being an angel with the other parent? So it's kind of similar, but it's not. Yes, we're moving into this, because I have seen a lot of mothers getting very cross and upset about this. And I'm sure this happens to fathers too. But I think quite often it's the mother or it's the that dynamic. Yeah, the girl is quite itchy just gravitates towards her father, because maybe her father is not the person do. Let's see. That's interesting. Yeah. And so what would you do about it? Let us know if you have any answers. Or maybe you've dealt with this. We'd love to hear how you've changed things, turn things around, or whether you just want to vent problems are also should we allow our teens to choose their hairstyle? Or their clothes, or tattoos? Where do we draw the line and and at what age? Oh, I'm looking forward to this. Yeah. Because I mean, if you're saying yes, they can have a tattoo, what age will you said, okay, and that's it for now. Don't forget to subscribe so that you don't miss an episode review us so that other people can find us more easily. Tell your friends and send us any questions that you have. We're also on as I said before, Instagram, Facebook and Susie's own website, which is Susie Astley mindfulness.co.uk Until next time, goodbye. Goodbye for now.