12: Bullying, and the best way to tackle it. Also, dealing with teenage backchat.

Rachel Richards: 0:02

Hello, I'm Rachel Richards former BBC correspondent parenting coach and mother of two teenagers and two older stepdaughters.

Susie Asli: 0:10

Hi, I'm Susie azulene, mindfulness instructor, mum of three teenagers two of them being twins.

Rachel Richards: 0:17

Welcome, pull up a chair. We'll be talking back chat later. So before I get rudely interrupted, let's begin. Bullying is an issue that's fraught for any parent. Its prevention is a growing research field. So what is the definition of bullying? In the research paper bullying behaviors in children and adolescents, it's defined as negative physical, verbal, or relational actions that a have hostile intent, B, cause distress to the victim. You can't see it, but Susie's really concentrating. See our repeated and D involve a power imbalance between perpetrators and victims. Definitive figures about the extent of bullying are actually hard to come by. I've seen quite a few sort of academic research articles one which is a little bit old. Now it's 2014 study, the percentage of children who reported involvement in bullying was 13% of the USA 24% in England and 8%. In Germany, and recent international studies indicated that bullying prevalence varied from 32% among Lithuanian 11 year old boys, did you present among Armenian girls of all ages?

Susie Asli: 1:25

That's a huge difference, but it kind of also depends on how they measure that which questions they use in

Rachel Richards: 1:32

different countries, different questions, different kids? Yeah, I mean, heartening, hard to know, hard to put a finger on it, but we know it happens. And we want to stop it. Yeah. Or we want to at least try and manage it. Yeah. So what have the experts learned about bullying? Right, I've got a little list here, there is not a single profile of a young person involved in bullying. Youth who bully can either be well connected socially or marginalized, and may be bullied by others as well. So similarly, those who are bullied sometimes are bullies.

Susie Asli: 2:03

Yeah, those are kind of external criteria, aren't they? I mean, I'm sure if you were to look at internal emotional criteria, there would be some similarities there.

Rachel Richards: 2:11

And solutions to bullying, again, are not simple. They say that really the best approaches show you have to confront the problem from all the different angles. It's not you can't simply say, here, I'm going to do this and that will fix it. Because there are so many different things that make up a bullying situation. And it is situational.

Susie Asli: 2:32

Yeah, absolutely. I always often find that with bullying, it seems to be kind of swing from one extreme to the other, that it's either, you know, everything is bullying, and we have to stamp it out and do whatever it takes. Or it's kind of like always it really bullying, isn't it? Just a bit of banter? A bit of teasing? Yeah. And it's kind of swings backwards and forwards a bit.

Rachel Richards: 2:51

And every bit of research I've done says that zero tolerance policy to bullying dancin? No, I can imagine. And that's because you don't really get under what's going on. And you don't have proper discussions and solve the things that are causing these problems.

Susie Asli: 3:07

It's a bit like doing family therapy with just one member of the family, isn't it? That's really work.

Rachel Richards: 3:14

So what parents can do parents create trust with their children by initiating open, honest discussion. So what the experts say is, Look, why don't why don't you try and sort of preempt bullying scenarios, you know, before it even happens, we can have discussions with our teens, and our young children about what is bullying, and why it matters. And we these are all the things we've had talks about in the past, you know, talk in the car where they're trapped, yeah, before or after home, or just any kind of openings, where you can talk about just the way that people relate to each other. And whether they I like to find stories in all sorts of newspapers, you know, on Facebook, or any social media, where you've seen some thing that looks a bit like bullying, or somebody complaining that they've been treated a certain way. And I love to show them to my teenagers and say, Hey, what do you think

Susie Asli: 4:07

that's a really good idea? And then you have a discussion as to what their opinions are? Yeah.

Rachel Richards: 4:11

And as a compliment to them, isn't it? Because then you're you're sort of asking their opinion, and give them a chance to think it through

Susie Asli: 4:16

and say what they think is fair and not fair. I often think that bullying is is born out of like many things, and we've discussed these things before born out of discomfort somehow, isn't it? It's like, something feels uncomfortable as a power difference or need to be heard and seen in a particular way. And then as a small child, or as a teenager or as an adult, we don't really know what to do with that feeling. So we check it over somebody else, or we try and muscle in on something or make ourselves feel better by putting somebody else down and it's all you know, it's born out of discomfort somehow.

Rachel Richards: 4:49

And that's a really good point. And that's the kind of area you focus on with mindfulness, isn't it? We're sort of that we all feel discomfort at times, and it's what we do about it and you know, people who are Bullying to an extent are not able to manage these emotions. And they're trying to find a way of dealing with them. That's healthy.

Susie Asli: 5:08

Yeah. And it can come you know, it can be various extremes kind of it can be you can feel massive discomfort, you can be in, you know, huge amounts of pain internally, and, and then that's much more maybe difficult to manage or deal with. But it could also be a little discomfort like boredom, or, you know,

Rachel Richards: 5:23

yeah, yes. And so you do something to annoy, then you get a reaction. And you think, actually, that's fun. Yeah. Now, if you think your teen might have been bullied, there's some really, that's the best resource I've seen, because I've been going through lots and lots of websites and books and things. I loved the child MIND Institute report that was written by Bridget Katz. And it's got lots of different headings, and you can go into it and look for the thing that's troubling you. So is it my child has been bullied? Is my child the bully? You know? Is it a school set? And what do I do? And she gives so many helpful bits of advice, but all of it starts with stay calm. And talk?

Susie Asli: 6:04

Yeah, perfect. Because, you know, there's so much connected to the idea of bullying, isn't there? I mean, it's, there's a lot of bad feeling, you know, for parents a lot of shame, you know, on either side, if you have a child who you find out is bullying, that can have huge amounts of shame, or what have I done, you know, what have I created created a monster kind of thing. And if your child is being bullied, you know, then that that has the massive connotation. So it's, it's, you know, maybe stopping and dealing with your own reaction reaction. So

Rachel Richards: 6:35

you need to take it and then you have to start thinking, okay, so it's my child, that I find out has been bullied. Now, it may be not, may not be that your child has come to you, you may suspect that there's something wrong. So the first thing is opening the conversation in a very roundabout way, just being very gentle about it, because it's very humiliating for somebody who is being bullied, to have to admit it can be and the statistics again, historical record of where they get this disease, but approximately 46% of students aged 12 to 18, who were bullied during the school year notified an adult at school about the budget bullying, so we're saying quite a lot, don't tell the people at school and they may just be struggling on so it's about, you know, building open communication with your teen. And then if you see something where they're going into their room, and they're looking very miserable, or something's changed, it's worth thinking, as Has anything happened.

Susie Asli: 7:29

And as you said earlier, if they do choose to share that information with you, that's actually a huge privilege. They're making themselves really vulnerable. So taking that seriously,

Rachel Richards: 7:38

taking it seriously. Has this happened before? Are you worried it will happen again? What will make you feel safe? And asking them for their opinion on you know, probing, can I go and talk to the teacher? Can I go into it, because quite often, they're scared to admit, because they think it might get worse. Yeah, if you weighed in, because a lot of parents get very cross and triggered by knowing that their child is struggling and then responding in a way that's not going to help the situation

Susie Asli: 8:05

and they get fear, fear that they'd be bullied worse, because the bully finds out, etc.

Rachel Richards: 8:09

And they're not sure whether they were being bullied again, coming back to that definition. And the reason the definition matters is because there are lots of other things that people can do that are awful. And they require slightly different responses and different wording. You know, where did it happen? What was going on? before it happened? What are you? Has it happened before? You know, has it happened multiple occasions? And what do you think is the reason? You know, was there something you did is there and not accusatory, it's about unpacking it? Yeah, I

Susie Asli: 8:38

think that's really important, because we often think of bullying as you know, right? Wrong, the bully the victim, can we get Stop it, you know, and it's very, very black and white, whereas actually bullying is relational as a relationship. And it doesn't mean that that's accepting it more or less, it's just looking at it with different a different a different perspective.

Rachel Richards: 8:58

One thing that they have found with bullying is that it's the people who are bullies when they're younger, or there's a close correlation with bad behavior when they're older, antisocial behavior. If your child was the bully, stay calm. Don't because very often, if we even hear some hint that our child might have done something awful. It's very upsetting because, you know, the first thing we feel is like, have we parented badly and we want to show people that we're not bad parents. So then we want we want to react. Okay, my child wouldn't do that, or how you know, and then this you're all then decide your child is, you know, Satan incarnate. Why? How would you know and they're going to lock them in their room and stop them from behavior. You know, we all have these emotional reactions

Susie Asli: 9:44

to do what's going on here and let's not make too big a drama but let's solve it. Let's How can we solve it?

Rachel Richards: 9:49

Yeah. So talking to your child just say well, I've heard you know, this other schools approached me and other parent has approached me a child has said something. So what was going on? For you give them a chance to talk about it. Why did you feel that way? Why do you feel that it's okay to talk to that person? Did you even intend that? Because I've known quite a few kids who've said things. And at the time, they thought, oh, maybe I shouldn't have said that. And then and then the other person took offense. And actually, they just, you know, they'd be just being stupid. Yeah. And if they're indifferent,

Susie Asli: 10:20

yeah, absolutely. And if they're in a group where they feel socially, really comfortable, and they feel like everything's fine, they haven't really experienced that. That horrible feeling of feeling left out. Or, as you know, most kids do at some point. If they haven't really, really experienced that, and they feel safe in their social social group, then they might not really get it. You might literally think that this one just just banter. Yeah. And trying to explain that actually, that really hurts. And it feels horrible. is a really good thing to do.

Rachel Richards: 10:47

Yeah, absolutely. And there is a bully is not a hard and fast person. A bully is somebody who's behaving like a bully at that time, and they could easily change. I think

Susie Asli: 10:57

that's because we label we love to label the bullies like, oh, that's you've done forever kind of thing? Yes, yes,

Rachel Richards: 11:04

I know. So relish and those people could turn into the best allies of other people if they realize that what they're doing is doesn't work. Children who bully often have other family social or emotional issues, there can be things that are happening with that, you know, you think about back back to being a teenager and how incredibly emotional that time was. And there's jealousy. There's, you know, inadequacy. So I, you know, I remember when I was a teenager, I made friends with a girl. And the girl I made friends with said to me, I used to hate you. And I said, Really, you don't know me? And she said, well, because you know, I heard you had all these things. And you did all this. And I just thought, gosh, if she did that, that's extraordinary. But she had all these things, this, these ideas about me. And I said, Where did you get that from? And other people had been saying that? Yes. It's always about them, isn't it? Yeah. And it was really unfortunate, because then we were great friends. And it was lovely. And that wasn't a bullying situation. But it's very easy for people to get the wrong impression about somebody else and feel this anger. And jealousy is

Susie Asli: 12:07

always based on their own story, whatever is going on in their particular particular moment, and they just predict it onto the other people. I mean, much earlier in their lives, my I have three children, and two of them are twins. And my eldest was two and a bit. And I know that's talking about toddlers, and we're talking about teenagers, but it's, it's also relevant. It's, you know, that was the worst day of his life when they were born. So then it's a power struggle, and he wasn't always particularly nice. But that, you know, that can continue that that reasoning can continue in later life, it's a power so they get stuck. Yes, you know, you know, they, it was a cry for a see me, I'm important to, you know, I'll be mean to them so that you'll listen to me.

Rachel Richards: 12:49

Yes. Right. And that's, that could be part of it. It's like, if this person is bullying, let's try and unpack exactly why they're thinking and feeling this way. And it can be all sorts of things like that they'll have a cry for attention, or any tension is in power, but maybe they're feeling powerless in other ways. And also just looking at the way we talk to our family members and our own children, again, not wanting to lay the blame at any parents. But you know, we may think this is a fun way of talking and our own family, and we were all comfortable with it. But it may be that another family works in a very different way. And the child from that family would find it deeply offensive. Yes. So we have to realize that sometimes we need to be a bit more considerate about the way we treat each other in our own houses. Each person who's been involved in the bullying needs support. So because everybody is impacted. So it's also to do with the people who witnessed the bullying and it's, I've noticed when I've been doing parent coaching, and I always did it in a group. And there's this fascinating dynamic where if the other people are watching a situation unfold, they will respond emotionally to and they are looking to see how it pans out. Because they are trying to learn to how do how does this work? Yeah, you know, and, you know, I had this fantastic game I play with which I'll talk in another another episode about teaching how important it is to lay down rules and continue with those rules, not sort of waver and you know, when I wavered with the rule deliberately, everyone was who was watching either said, I felt so much better that you know, that poor person didn't get the consequences that you given out. You said you were going to give out and then some other people said, Wait, like, you know, that's not fair. That's not I just, and people, people that people are spectators of the event, so they will themselves be left feeling uncomfortable. anxious about what would happen to them if they ever said anything, or they will be you know, think it's okay. If nothing happens, it

Susie Asli: 14:56

creates a huge ripple effect, doesn't it? And depending on where you're at, and what you're what you're possessed. Shouldn't isn't it that you can't not be affected by that?

Rachel Richards: 15:03

It needs to be a whole school or whole environment solution is what I'm trying to say, well, you know, all these experts say, really, you can't just fix it with one thing. You've got to go into the whole school and the whole environment. Now, I get it all you parents go, yeah, it only but my school downplays bullying, right? So when I looked at that there was a Psychology Today article about it. And they were saying that, you know, usually there's a lack of awareness, because you'll say to the school, oh, this has happened. And they may well say, Well, I just I haven't seen anything. And I had exactly that scenario, when I was talking to the headmaster of a school and we were talking about, you know, one child picking on another child. And they took it very serious. It wasn't any of my children took it very seriously. And then, when they were sort of going through the whole process of trying to understand what had been going on, he sent me a video that they had taken during the day of these two children having huge fun together. And he said, The problem is, this is what we see. Yes, that's so how do we unpick exactly what's going on when we caught you know, that's part of the problem. So it is it does need to be everybody engaged in saying it This is it's not worth looking

Susie Asli: 16:14

at the whole story and see what's going on and how best to approach it. And teachers

Rachel Richards: 16:17

really are busy. They're really busy. Really busy. And you know what, you know how you feel? So I've had another scenario recently where they were two sides, you know, sort of he said this one, she said this one, whatever. Yeah. And I was in the middle of listening to it. And I felt a bit overwhelmed. I just thought, Oh, God, you know, and I've been like that in a court case where I've sat watching a rape trial. And the first evidence was about the man and what he did. And I just thought, Oh, my goodness, he's evil. And then the then the defense barrister got up and started speaking and interviewing, you know, the rape victim, and I thought, Oh, my God, how could you? And we, as human beings feel very compromised when we're having to try and unpick what's going on,

Susie Asli: 17:05

which is why it's really important to see it as something that's relational, because and get away from the rights Ross said, she said they're wrong. Yes, punish and punish victim, perpetrator, because that's just unhelpful. And then it's black and white, and then you you kind of limited as to how you deal with it. Yeah. Whereas it's, you can still point out to people that they're behaving in a way that's completely wrong and inappropriate, and make it relational. And you can also help the person who would otherwise be called the victim and empower them to, you know, maybe learn how they can be in it in a relational way, and maybe learn boundaries, learn how to be in a different way. In it, it's there's just more opportunity for growth and learning if you do it that way.

Rachel Richards: 17:47

So true, so true. And you know, one of the mothers I've known who decided to, I'm going to remove my daughter, I don't like the way this is working. And I said to her, you know, maybe that that's what you want to do, that's fine. And maybe that is the right decision. But don't forget that you need to do something work with her about unpicking why this has happened, because you may find she'll go to another school and the same thing will happen again, if she's not aware of her relationship, in this situation,

Susie Asli: 18:12

at least allow her to heal what's happening? Yes, because it can be really traumatic.

Rachel Richards: 18:16

Of course, Jackie DeMarco, who's the co author of when your child is being bullied, advises parents to be the most pleasant nuisance you possibly can, until you have a resolution and I love that acting a pleasant nice. And I love that because actually, I think she's right, rather than sort of steaming in and telling the school what they should do, or you know, my my Gianni is not in Bollywood, what we need to do is write everything down. We talked about it in girlfriend tips and how it's not simply about you know, making sure that you can then convey to the people who tried to sort out what's going on what's actually happened, it is that so dates, details, you know, how she felt he felt what happened to him, her. But also it helps the person either the perpetrator or the victim, to actually unpack it to look at it and go, Oh, so this is how I felt this is what happened beforehand. This is my reaction, what out of that fed into that narrative. It helps them. So then what you do and I, my friend who's got four kids told me to do this years and years ago, she said, always notify the school. So it doesn't matter how egregious the behavior has been. You write it down, you email them and you say, either you say I'd like you to act on it or you don't have to do anything, but I need you to know that this is happening. So so that then if it happens again, you now have a paper trail or email trail is now and the one of the reasons this is so important is that very often the person who is being bullied at some point will react.

Susie Asli: 19:55

You don't want to come back to come out of the thin air it

Rachel Richards: 19:58

because otherwise the teacher It will save the person who's been bullied, you know, punching someone, and then it will be their fault. And they'll say, Well, we didn't know anything about it. So the documentation is really, really powerful. And there's a fantastic link that I put into the podcast notes, which is a Kidscape log and school contact record, so that you can log down with your child, a teenager, what's been happening. And also note down when you contacted the school and what you said to them, and you can follow up. So then you call them the next day say, hi, just me. You know, we said we were going to do this. So have you been getting on you just very polite about it, but you've got a log. So there's nothing. Really I love the phrase, because Because actually, you know, you don't have to be angry or anything, but actually people who are angry, often, I find that other people dark. Yeah, especially

Susie Asli: 20:50

in a school are so busy. And sometimes, you know, these these things are brought up and they're not, you know, they've been overdramatized or, and so it must be difficult for places to know which ones do we need to really act on and take very seriously and which ones are going to pass? You know, that's really hard for them to know. And yes, of course, they should act on all of them if they can, but they have limited resources. Yes,

Rachel Richards: 21:10

yes. So just you know, and telling the school, what you would actually like, rather than some kind of severe punishment, is some kind of unpacking of what's been going on. Because we know that the zero tolerance policy doesn't work. So if the parents or the other child can be involved, and everybody else can have somehow get some ownership over this, then you were likely to get a better out

Susie Asli: 21:32

Yeah, with an intention to you know, everyone wants it to be a safe space for everybody. How can we create that in a way that has the conversation behind it? And when it gets out of alignment gets out of balance, which it will? How do we bring it back again, to the islands on the same page?

Rachel Richards: 21:47

And just one note on cyber bullying or even cyber conversations? It is worth another episode, I think that the thing to get across to your kids is the way that you communicate on social media and any digital platform will have a fingerprint. And will you also don't know when the music will stop?

Susie Asli: 22:11

No. Question. I think that's brilliant, because cyber bullying is a whole area of itself, isn't it, as you said,

Rachel Richards: 22:17

and what I mean by that? Yeah, exactly. What I mean by that is that I have spoken to kids who said, Oh, yeah, you know, we talk like this, we're trading insanity. And they're using this offensive language to each other. And you don't know when they're going to screenshot your conversation and then show it to somebody. And at what, at that point, you're the person who looks like the really terrible person, it was in spite of the fact that you may have had some snap cut chat conversation going on for a month.

Susie Asli: 22:43

Yeah, I love that you don't know when the music's done.

Rachel Richards: 22:47

So I constantly whenever I talk to my kids, I say, Well, look at the social media, I tried to be as polite and nice as I possibly can. Because you, you know, just think about yourself standing in the middle of a square, would you really say some of these things to people? Just don't write it? Yeah. So so just just we need to model it. And we need to be explicit with our kids about what's healthy, and be a pleasant nuisance be a pleasant nuisance, so that when you call out the school, hi, it's me. Hi, it's ma'am. Again, how have you dealt with bullying in any way? How did you find out about it? What did you do about it? And did you find anything in particular worked for you, we'd love to know. You can find us on Facebook, Instagram, and help at teenagers untangle.com. And if you need any more help with mindfulness techniques, this sort of stuff we've been talking about in terms of just drilling down into those uncomfortable feelings and unpacking them. Suzy is always available for online consultations as well as in person. Now, April says, I'm so tired of getting attitude and back chat from my daughter. I'm doing things for her. But she's rude back. She doesn't seem to treat anyone else in this way. And another listener, Sara says, my teenage son often backtracks when he thinks he's right, but then accuses me of not listening to him. Susie, have you had a resurgence of the terrible twos? You know, where they, the they think they're independent, and they're frustrated? Because they didn't have the language to express they're very complex emotions, and they just sort of stamp their feet and say, That's not your Yeah,

Susie Asli: 24:17

yeah, regularly. But I kind of also struggled a little bit with this, the wording I actually had to google back chat,

Rachel Richards: 24:26

which used a lot.

Susie Asli: 24:27

It's used a lot. So what does it actually mean? And it's when somebody is rude to someone in authority, the definition I read, I struggle with it in that I, you know, we're all trying to or we're trying to bring up our children to, you know, go out in the world and to have an opinion and to go and do all the things they want to do and be themselves be, you know, be who they are. And then we try and curb them at home and say, Well, you can't do something like that and you can't. You can't say that. It doesn't sort of sit massive In alignment with me, I think where I am with it is that I've always said to my kids that I have no problem, I sort of welcome if they're angry, if they have, you know, they feel angry, or there's something they disagree with me, they're always always welcome to express that. And they can, there is ways of saying that I don't like. And I don't know whether that counts is back chat. But I don't really have a problem with that I do have a problem. And I've made it very clear. There are some things I don't like the way they say it. But the actual, you know, talking back or having a different opinion is welcome. I think there's a difference.

Rachel Richards: 25:37

Yeah, I think one of the big problems with the whole back chat is when we are more authoritative your hair and our style is that style. So my husband is quite that style. And he feels I'm paying the bills. Yeah, I'm the big man in the It's my house. And he thinks like, that is my house. Yeah. And that, yes, that's true. But your child has no choice about where they live. And they will try and flex their muscles. And I think that I personally, if somebody tells me I'm doing something wrong, I do instantly bristle. Yeah. So I do wonder about it's just the the way in which we, we we just have I mean, my older daughters had ever seen the way they talk to each other. I mean, they're constantly at each other. And and I think it's very much to do with the way he opens his conversation with her. Yeah,

Susie Asli: 26:33

absolutely. It depends on you know, the kids personalities might react very differently. And what's going on in their lives. Like, my, my eldest is, and he's got exams at the moment. And he's had a sort of a funny run up to it, shall we say,

Rachel Richards: 26:47

finally or not?

Susie Asli: 26:50

It's not a run up to it. And so he was feeling a bit, you know, the weekend and at dinner, I asked him something about something he was doing with his work, and he snapped at me. And it was a bit weird. And and I've learned it took me a long time to get there, you know, don't unpick that in the moment. Just wait. And so I went to him after dinner and said, you know, what's going on? What's what's up? And he actually just went, because we've had these conversations before, you know, I'm sorry, I'm just really grumpy. Because I'm really fed up of revising, Okay, done, finished. But we have to just sort of, you know, under, you know, understand the context, and maybe take things less personally and also have a personal boundaries. So what I would accept in my home and from my children might not be acceptable at all in another house. And there's no judgment in that we have, we have our own limits and our own personal boundaries. And as long as we can express them and live by them, then there's there's no sort of universal chatter,

Rachel Richards: 27:46

don't think and I loved your point about having a conversation with them about where the rules whether where the lines are drawn, this is absolutely critical. I think a lot of parents get very confused about this, because they feel the either kind of think that putting too many boundaries in is stultifying their growth, or it's the opposite, that they need proper boundaries, it's really important. And I think what what's really interesting is that we have this prefrontal cortex in teenagers that simply isn't that well developed yet. And that's the thing, that is the ability to control your your impulses. And while teenagers brains are rewiring, they really what you want to do is you want to have consistent behavior that you'd like them to exhibit when they're older, because what's happening is they're laying down pathways to a certain way of responding. And so the more they do the snappy response, the funny sweetie, or angry response, the more that's going to be a groove that gets dark. So what we want to do is we want to teach them to, to you, okay, so this is how you're going to do it. And I'm, I'm talking to you about this, because actually, you're you're laying down habits for your the rest of your life. And it really matters.

Susie Asli: 29:04

I love that I love that way of explaining it. And that's something they can really relate to, as well. I think that's brilliant.

Rachel Richards: 29:09

And so you were saying, talking about sort of laying down walls, this is absolutely critical. So the, the research that I was doing, says, you know, make house walls make it very, very clear that this is the sort of language we accept. So if you're going to disagree with me, we don't use abusive language. We don't shout. You know, as soon as you shout, I always say to my kids, the second someone shouting, no one's listening. All that's happened is your chimp has come out and it's having a bit of a tantrum, and people will either dark or leave, you know, they just or they'll shout back their throat. So it's we don't want to get to that bit. So if you feel an emotional response coming on with the answer is and this is for parents, as well as teenagers, we need to take a breath. Yeah. And I think we're in a world where we just feel like we've got to respond immediately. Yes, and I think particularly teenagers do remember, I would spend So much time being really crossed, because somebody would have said something to me. And I thought, and then 10 minutes later, I had this fantastic

Susie Asli: 30:06

Yeah, I still have that.

Rachel Richards: 30:09

It's so frustrating. And the teenagers are full of that, you know, now I just say, Oh, well, you know, I am who I am whatever. But But actually, it's a thing for teenagers. So they may be flexing that they may be thinking, Oh, I've got to come up with something. And so actually saying to them, it's okay to take some time. So you don't, you don't agree with me? That's okay. But don't start swearing at me and shouting at me. So you need to stop and think, Okay, how do I explain this in a way that will have the impact I want? So what do I want out of this? Yeah, I know, it's a big leap

Susie Asli: 30:42

is a teenager, you can teach them out, you know how that feels, as well from, you know, for mindfulness perspective, for how does it feel when you are, you know, raging or just before your age, preferable, preferable, but it's really hard. And also, you know, as parents and as teenagers, we will, of course, flip over into the Rayji bit and a bit, that's not good. Of course, we do that with humans. And then mending that afterwards, and showing them how to mend it as well. It's really important and

Rachel Richards: 31:09

the showing them how to mend it is part of teaching them how to run relationships as an adult. So even though I think a lot of parents think, Oh, if I actually apologize, or I tell them, I've done something wrong, or that wasn't quite the right way to respond, I lose their respect. It's the opposite opposite. If you come in and say actually, that wasn't, I didn't mean to be like that. We're all human.

Susie Asli: 31:28

And it teaches them that they can also mess up and apologize, and we can all be good again.

Rachel Richards: 31:33

Yeah, it's not yes, it's not intrinsic. It's something that just happens. And when your child talks back to you, and they refuse to do something that you ask them to do, for example, wait till you're a little bit calm, and then restate the expectation. And what the consequences are best thing to do is have a family meeting with a one on one with them where you agree that these are certain expectations. And then when they don't live up to them, you say, Okay, so you've said this. So now I'm going to do this. So you said you weren't clear away the dishes. So I won't be cooking supper tomorrow. Good luck with that. And whatever, whatever whatever is your agreement on what you think has a reasonable consequence for unpleasant behavior?

Susie Asli: 32:15

Yeah. And you can have specifics currently. I mean, I remember having conversation when my you know, there had been a disagreement, massive disagreement and having that conversation with, with my eldest and saying, you know, I have absolutely no problem with you disagreeing with me being angry with any of the stuff of the content, I have no problem with that. I welcome it, I want to know what you think. And I do have a problem with you speaking like this, and being you know, specific, that this, this and this, and that is unacceptable? Do you hear me kind of thing? And, and he's like, Yeah, okay.

Rachel Richards: 32:48

And that's it, because actually, then they do have respect for you. Because then you also say, I promise not to do that to you either. That's the problem. It needs to be both ways. You can't say you can't speak to me like that. And yet you speak to them that way. Because the problem with that is, all you're doing is you're, you're kind of bullying them, because they can't get away from you, you're making their life hell, and they don't have any means of, you know, expressing themselves.

Susie Asli: 33:10

And at the very best, you're sort of being a hypocrite,

Rachel Richards: 33:14

and making it clear to the teenager, that those constant, you're willing to listen and have an open mind, but the consequences stay. So you know, you say so these were the consequences. This is what's going to happen and just stick to your guns, you don't have to suddenly backtrack on something because they put together a better argument. I mean, you could, but you need to be thinking, if I'm going to threaten something, or threatened is not the right word. If I'm going to explain to them that you do this, then that this is going to happen. It needs to be something you can enforce.

Susie Asli: 33:45

Yeah. And also, I mean, I think that's brilliant. And sometimes they can also be flexibility in that I remember once was with my eldest, it's always home, isn't it? Interesting. There was something I wanted, we needed to do. And we disagreed with that and really disagreed with it. And then I found out that there was a valid reason as to why that didn't work for him. And then eventually, he explained what that was. And I was like, Oh, well, of course, we'll let's do it this way. They're not this time, or this place, or whatever. I can't remember exactly. The details, but and then he was like, Okay, great. And it was solved. So there can be also flexibility in

Rachel Richards: 34:25

it. And that's a permutation is a perfect illustration of why whether it's talking about sex, about these sorts of rules is you don't just have that conversation once. It's not done. And so you have to be prepared to come back when you sort of sort of go, Oh, it's getting we got crunchy gear changes here. Then just say, Hey, should we have a chat about this? Because it doesn't, we're not quite working well here

Susie Asli: 34:50

and showing them that there's flexibility and showing them that if they come with a reason and you're listening and that you're able to make a compromise or just be flexible is is great for them because they need that.

Rachel Richards: 35:04

Yeah, we will need that. And they're learning the skills. Every time that happens, they learn how to solve conflicts, they'll be able to use them in their own relationships, they'll be able to use them in the workplace, all this stuff really matters, being prepared to come back and say, I don't think this is working. I disagree with this, you know, then it's very important practice at home, there's

Susie Asli: 35:23

nothing worse than a rule being enforced. I mean, we all know that ourselves being enforced just for the sake of it. And you know, it's not really working, you know, it's just for the sake of it, and everyone's left going what on?

Rachel Richards: 35:37

Absolutely, absolutely. If your child seems to be absolutely out of control, and they are constantly defiant, and you're not able to get through to them, then that's something rather different. Yeah. Right. Because we're talking about children who when you have those conversations, they respond, they feel understood and listened to, and then there's a better relationship if it's nonstop. That's the point and you've made these changes and you've thought about the way you're working with them and it's now become entrenched that's the time to be seeking some extra help outside Yeah, that's family therapy or something where you can all turn up or just therapy for them. But you know, it's the we do have to be able to flag up there are certain situations where you there there may be other problems that are not being understood. Yeah. Well, that's it for now. Don't forget to subscribe on Spotify Apple, audible review us tell your friends and next week we'll take a look at that D subject pornography and how we discuss it with our teenagers. And we've had a lot of parents saying they're not sure what fun things to do with their teens when they do have time. So let's have a look at some great ideas. Please feel free to tell us yours because let's face it, we're struggling to Yes, please. Any idea about Facebook, Instagram, whatever you want to do to reach us. So that's it for now. Bye for now.