Thank you so much for coming here. We love being in touch with our listeners. If you'd like to hear when a new podcast is out, and any extra tips we have to share, then please sign up. We'll never send spam.
The rate of self-harm among young children in the UK has doubled over the last six years according to recent research compiled by the British Broadcasting Corporation.
Keith Hawton, a professor of psychiatry at the University of Oxford, told File on 4 the data on self-harm was “in keeping with what we’re finding from our research databases. It’s almost as though the problem is spreading down the age range.
One analysis of self-injury behaviour across more than 40 countries found that the average age of the first incident of self-harm is 13 and adolescents have the highest rate of self-injury behaviour.
Given the increasing risk that your teen, or one of their friends, will be impacted by self-harm we decided to delve into what it is and how we can better help our adolescents.
One mum says that her 12 year old teen began self-harming due to bullying. She takes her to the swings whenever she needs to soothe herself, and says it makes all the difference. Such a great idea!
Resources:
HELPLINES:
Thanks for listening. Please hit the follow button if you like our podcast, and share it with anyone who might benefit. You can review us on Apple podcasts by going to the show page, scrolling down to the bottom where you can click on a star then you can leave your message.
Our website has a blog, searchable episodes, and ways to contact us:
www.teenagersuntangled.com
Susie is available for a free 15 minute consultation, and has a great blog:
www.amindful-life.co.uk
Hello, I'm Rachel Richards former BBC correspondent parenting coach a mother of two teenagers and two older stepdaughters.
Susie Asli:I'm Susie Asli mindfulness teacher, a mother of three teenagers, two of them are twins.
Rachel Richards:Coming up later in the program, we'll be talking about talking. What's your style as a parent? Are you a hot and cold tap, and Ice King or Queen? We'll help you identify your type and give you tips on how to move towards being a true parent. But first, Susie, we've had some really lovely feedback, haven't we?
Susie Asli:Yeah, really lovely. Really, really lovely. So this is on the Apple podcast. And this lovely person said, these ladies make me feel like I'm at a supportive book club where tips and suggestions are thrown out for me to select what I need to get through the day, week month. Without a support network around me. This is invaluable listening and very reassuring that we can get through the teenage years in one piece. Thank you. Thank you. Yeah, what a lovely thing to spot on, because I've never really thought about it. But that's actually what we're sort of aiming for. Yeah, yeah, we can't we can't make decisions for you. But we can kind of chat about the thing. Yeah. Our experiences. Yeah. So thank you. And Lizzy says, I find the podcast really insightful and entertaining to you and Susie are brilliant together. She's promised to spread the word to other parents. Thank you so much. Thank you, Lizzie.
Rachel Richards:Now last time, we talked about anxiety, which can either help us to perform better or cause huge problems. I'm feeling a bit anxious for this episode, because I have a plumber working on the shower directly opposite the bedroom where we normally recorded. It's so noisy that I've carried all of our equipment downstairs that the room where we watch TV, in theory is going to work well. The only problem is that my two crazy dogs associate this room with sofa time and Tommy tickles. So if you hear any heavy panting during the recording, it's not me or Susie. So back to anxiety. We thought we'd stick with symptoms of distress and look at self harm. So, Susie, that lots of the schools nowadays are doing talks about all of these topics and you went to one last night.
Susie Asli:Actually last night. Yeah, right. Very, very timely. I bet the school didn't No, no, they didn't. It was brilliant. There was this amazing lady, I'm just her name is Sat via Niger. I don't know if I'm pronouncing that right. She's She's, she's got an Indian name. Amazing, amazing talks, she goes around loads of schools, talking about self harm and has experienced it herself. It was really insightful. What's happening with schools nowadays is they're being much more proactive about making sure that parents know about some of the issues that can affect children at that age, and trying to inform them. But not all schools are doing that. And not all parents turn up to these Oh, I mean, she went in, I think the main her main mission was to talk to the children. So she talked to the children in the afternoon. And she's been I think it's the fourth year that she's been going in to do this. And then parents are invited in the evening if they want to come and, and there wasn't a great turnout, to be honest, which is a real shame.
Rachel Richards:And it's something that does affect quite a lot of children. I have spoken to mothers who've said that their children have been in contact with others who have self harmed, and that they're not quite sure what to say to their own children. And I've also had experience of other parents who have had to deal with it at home. And it's a really, really distressing topic.
Susie Asli:And I think for a parent who discovers that their child is going through this sort of distress, it can be extremely triggering, very upsetting. Now, what is self harm, self harm is harming yourself on purpose, such as by scratching, cutting, overdosing on medication biting Bernie, I mean, there are really a lot of different ways of doing it. And quite often, people who self harm, don't only just use one technique. The key message is that it's not a mental illness, it's linked to mental distress. It's a symptom of underlying emotional and psychological distress. So it's really important that we don't say that this is a mental illness, this person has really important, it's a symptom of something that's its underlying, and usually what's underlying it is being overwhelmed by feelings, you know, sadness, guilt, hopelessness, and what it can be triggered by many, many, many, many different things as you found out in the talk last night, absolutely massive list, right? Yeah. Well, she'd made you put up a whole list of things that could be caused by and then it was sort of slightly ironically meant, you know, anything. Pretty much anything. Yes. And there are certain things so for example, LGBTQI
Rachel Richards:I saw a really fantastic piece where the person who was posting it said, Look, your child isn't doing it, because they're LGBT Qi what they're doing is they're trying to release emotions that aren't being helped. and awareness, there isn't one or a list of things that make you self harm. It's complicated. Yes. So from the research I did, the people most likely to do it is more common in women and girls, what we do know is that men and boys are less likely to go to help with anything. That was something that was mentioned yesterday, as well. It's all these statistics that are brought out, you know, some of them are really, really helpful. But they are based on people who present in hospital with symptoms, and there are an awful lot of people who are not doing that. Yes, people who are depressed, anxious have a borderline personality disorder, or eating disorder, these are people who've experienced abuse, or those who've been bereaved. I mean, there are some big things that could trigger it. But again, it's it's all sorts of reasons. And I read a really interesting blog by someone who has personally been affected. And her point was that most people who engage in this, find it hard to verbalize their feelings. And what they're doing is they're acting them out somehow, from reading that I thought, gosh, that's actually really interesting. Because one thing we can do to help is to be able to help our teenagers to express themselves. And this is obviously for anybody, even people who are not suffering from self harm. It's it's about identifying emotions, and being able to put a name to it. Yeah, cuz it's a coping mechanism, like as in anything that is destructive or numbing or, you know, all the different things that we've we've talked about some of them before, it's a coping mechanism. So so the next question probably is, what exactly is happening when they harm themselves, it's one of the lists I saw was, there's redirection, when the emotional pain is too difficult, it actually distracts them a physical manifestation of their pain, which makes it seem easier to feel in control of it. Punishment, so they may be feeling shame and feeling that they deserve to be punished, or they're punishing themselves or release. So two people can get an endorphin rush when they self harm. And that temporary release that that rush, then will, it can be habit forming.
Susie Asli:Yeah. And another thing is, it can prevent people from hurting other people. So you have this awful feeling inside of what whatever that looks like. And that can sometimes lead to hurting other people. And then as a prevention of hurting somebody else. They turn the pain on themselves.
Rachel Richards:So interesting. I was listening to desert island, which is a fantastic British program on radio. And there was the former judge and crossbench peer, Baroness Hallett OF BRI being interviewed on this program. And I distinctly remember, Lauren Laverne, asking her, when you have to sit through case after case of really terrible, terrible child abuse. And you have to listen to all the evidence. How do you cope? Do you feel emotional about it? She said, Yes, I'm human. And and it can be very distressing at times. And she said, Well, have you ever felt like crying? And she said, Yes. And she said, Well, how do you deal with that? If you're the judge, and you got to sit there. She said, Oh, it's very simple. I was told this technique, which is, when I'm feeling that deep emotion, when I feel like I'm about to cry, I dig my fingernails into the palm of my hand. And that temporary discomfort distracts me. Yeah. And I thought, gosh, that's it. That's exactly what we're talking about. So and that nobody would say, Oh, she's self harming. So you know, there are levels, levels of this, and some self harm will present as something really drastic, where they've cut themselves deeply. And it's very upsetting. And then there were other ways that we so it's a technique for dealing with difficult emotions.
Susie Asli:Yeah. And we need to also be careful that just because somebody is maybe scratching themselves or pulling their hair, and it seems more superficial than you know, cutting them with a deep cut, the feelings might be just as Yeah, probably exactly the same or not the same. Feelings are always different. But but that doesn't mean that the distress or less, you know, there's more in the more superficial, the harming thing doesn't mean that the feelings are any difference.
Rachel Richards:That's such a great point, Susie, that's such an end at this height, kind of just by trying to look at how bad their self Yes, is not the right or how many times have you done it or all that doesn't matter. You just you know, just putting a few hairs out or whatever it might be, it might be okay. But you know, don't presume that it's okay. So what are they most likely to do? What are we looking out for? They're scratching or pinching impact with objects. Cutting cuttings are one people talk about a lot impact with themselves. So that could be where they punched themself, or ripped skin carving words into themselves or just symbols interfering with healing. So you may have something that I mean, we've all taken scabs off. Yeah. But but this is a you know, more of a bigger thing, burning, rubbing objects into the skin. hair pulling. And one thing to notice that 70% of those who repeatedly self harmed use multiple ways to self harm. So there wasn't just one thing yet that they were doing. And things you can look out for wearing long sleeves on a hot day, cuts, burns or scratches that are close together, because they try to do it in a place where it's not. It's easy to reach. But it's not necessarily noticeable bloodstains fighting self injury tools. Now, I had an experience one of my children who was in a school where self harming started happening. And it was a really interesting and worrying experience. And the reason it was interesting was because the girls were hiding implements, in their, under their pillows in various parts of the rooms. And so the school had some real problems with trying to track down, they had to search rooms and things to try and control it. The question is whether a parent should be doing that at home?
Susie Asli:Yeah, I mean, that would minimize the risk of the actual, you know, damage caused, but it's not solving the issue underneath. And that's the problem.
Rachel Richards:And it can feel quite intrusive to the person. Yeah,
Susie Asli:I mean, if somebody is self harming, and, you know, my instinct would be to, you know, hide anything they will could damage themselves with. But that's not curing it, that's not taking the problem away. That's just minimizing the risk in that immediate moment, I think.
Rachel Richards:And what also was interesting was that there were one or two girls who were really struggling. And the reports I got was that there were other girls who then looked at what was going on, and the attention they were getting, and said, Oh, you know, we could, you know, so there's always this question that pass on parents have, which is, is this attention seeking? Or are they just they jumping on the bandwagon? And the reason I mentioned this is because I think we need to take any of it very seriously, and not accused them? And actually, what's so wrong with wanting attention? We all want attention. So actually
Susie Asli:thinking, Well, yeah, why?
Rachel Richards:Yes. And what is it missing? What are we missing here. And, and so the reason I mentioned it as well is that information gets passed around. So you know, first of all, it can normalize it, which is always worrying. And this happens in schools where and you know, a no blame to the schools, because it can be very difficult to control once it starts getting into one particular section of the school and they pass information around. But the reason I bring it up is actually because parents need to be aware of the websites that are out out there and accounts which can be very encouraging and enticing for people who are struggling with their emotions, and they'll give tips on how to do these things. So that's one thing to have a really clear guideline on that, that you're you don't want your children accessing this information.
Susie Asli:I think the idea that people do it because others are doing it is also you have to be really careful with because yes, they get ideas, I guess if me, I don't know, but I don't want to be categoric about it. But if somebody hears the idea of cutting themselves, if that's the chosen self harm, and then thinks, oh, that's a good idea, I'm gonna try it. There's something already really wrong. If somebody isn't feeling good about themselves and imbalance, they're gonna go, oh, that sounds horrible. I don't want to do that. Exactly.
Rachel Richards:And I nearly fainted, my child comes to me with a splinter in her finger, I don't want to hurt myself, and I can't stand seeing it on someone else. So it would it would just be anathema to her myself in that way. Of course, there are other ways I could hurt myself, but the point being that it would never occur to me. And my daughter said to me, something that was very insightful, which is she said, the thing that I've realized about it is that it's not just the person who suffers is the people around them because we are all involved in it, we all get sucked up into it, and it's painful.
Susie Asli:And that's when as parents I imagine you know, it's must be unbelievably painful. You know, what's happened? Why is my child harming themselves and we have to step back and and be really adult about it because there's so much shame involved for the child is it's a bit like eating disorders, you know, there's so much shame involved. So you know, kid gloves
Rachel Richards:so on that point, what can you do as a parent, stay calm, always stay calm, always. Whatever it is, stay calm. Acknowledge your own feelings. Yeah, as a parent, you're going to be angry, stressed, upset, fearful that maybe you've done something or you know, not really being able to understand it and feeling perhaps that your child why didn't they come to you? Yeah,
Susie Asli:I think we often as parents go to the default of it's my fault. What have I done and it's not
Rachel Richards:and reach out to a trusted friend or a counselor. There are so many websites have so many numbers. You can call there a crisis hotlines. There is so much out there. Don't feel I think a lot of people feel uncomfortable about calling these things because it's it's they don't know these people and they don't know whether they can trust them or whether they would talk the language they want to talk who
Susie Asli:failed as well, as a parent, you know, you feel that what have I done? What have I contributed to this, and it may be nothing, your child, the child needs help,
Rachel Richards:and stay open, invite your team to share what they're feeling. But don't please don't force the issue. So I've had a mother who I know who has had to deal with this. And I loved her approach, because she said, Look, you can't try and force your child to talk to you, if they didn't want to talk to you and trying to tell them, I need to see the injuries. You know, it's it's very intrusive, and they're already struggling.
Susie Asli:Yeah. And it's, that's that's the symptom as well. It's we have to keep remembering, that's the symptom. It's not the the actual problem. So also saying to a kid, you know, Oh, brilliant, you haven't cut for a couple of weeks. Great. We, this was talked about last night, actually, you know, your automatic reaction will be brilliant, praise, great, which is good. But what if and is quite likely, that child then goes and harms again, in a couple of weeks, they're going to feel like a massive failure, and probably not want to open up to you again, because they'll feel like they've you know, now they've messed it up again, what a great point. So a better way would be, you know, that's great. You know, it's really positive. And I'm, you know, I'm here, if that changes,
Rachel Richards:guess and be patient is not likely to stop quickly, even when they've got therapy. So this is the big point is that this is a diversion. They've learned this method for trying to cope with emotions that they can't really frame properly.
Susie Asli:And they might never frame it. I mean, it's a bit like asking an alcoholic, why are you drinking? Why are you numbing some of them are really clear about it. They know exactly why. But a lot of people they don't know, if something just feels really painful inside for whatever reason, and they want to get rid of it. They might never be really clear about it. So that's, that's fine. Leave it.
Rachel Richards:Yes. So I found some fantastic questions, you can ask your team, which is what was going on in your life when you first began to injure yourself? And they don't have to tell you, you can say here are the things I'd like you to think about. I think this is what they do in therapy as well. How do you feel just before you want to injure yourself? What are the habits and routines? Are you always in the same place or with a particular person? It's about kind of investigating around it in a curious way, we talked about this with anxiety rather than problem solving, going at it in a curious way. And they may not want to talk about it in this detail. But you can go back in little, little drips to try and get themself to know themselves. Yeah,
Susie Asli:sowing seeds of what might be what might be underneath how they feel?
Rachel Richards:And do I always feel the same emotion when I get the urge to intimate into myself? How can I better deal with the situations that trigger me? Yeah. And if you have a child who knows someone who's struggling, it's very helpful them for them to understand that it is about distress, and that if they can provide any support to the teenager, just by being a listening ear, or just giving them space or anything that they need, that's a really valuable thing to do.
Susie Asli:And it's really, really important, it can make a massive difference.
Rachel Richards:And I loved her approach because she said, you know, the thing is, it's really important that I didn't keep saying why and let it show me show me the Show Me Yeah. Because it's it like you said it's shameful for the person. When they're doing these things. They are they're in crisis they're in there they're trying to get rid of a an old expressing emotion. So keeping going back to it and asking for proof is not going to help them deal with whatever it is that caused it in the first place.
Susie Asli:The lady who was speaking last night who was fantastic she she likened it, which I thought was really good way of talking about it to somebody crying, and you wipe away their tears and their cheeks and are dry and you're like, Well, you know, job done solved. That's like stopping the self harm and then going well, we're good now. No, that's just what's going on underneath. Why is the person crying? Why is the person doing
Rachel Richards:it? Yes, brilliant, brilliant point. Practical Tips. We love some practical tips, don't we? So 10 practical tips were from Dr. Franz Fanon, Berg, and I read another blog by someone who's been affected by self harm. And they give all these practical tips of things that you can do, for example, something like having a an emergency pack of things ready for the teen, so that if they do just feel this overwhelming urge to try and do something, perhaps they could squeeze an ice cube. Instead, you get that same shot of pain, but it's not going to harm their body and
Susie Asli:if they've already had a think about what is it they're getting out of the harm, you know, how do they feel after the harming event? What's the purpose of it? Then they can find activities. It may be slightly match that if at all possible,
Rachel Richards:and you use a really good technique with your son, which is when he's feeling really angry that he has a trigger word. Well, one of the things that came up was having a communication system. So there's a red, there's an amber. And when they feel that, who are they going to talk to? Yeah, that's probably when we are you, Amber. And when they say they don't have anybody that they can talk to about it, it's not that they don't have someone to talk to, it's that they don't have someone they feel comfortable talking to. So it's about trying to find someone, or some way that they can express
Susie Asli:what they're feeling. Yeah. And that might be you, but it might not be and that's okay.
Rachel Richards:Absolutely. Right. And remind your teen it's normal to experience strong emotions like sadness, anger, fear, anxiety, and that they don't last long. Yeah, this is one of your great ones isn't? Yes, nothing lasts forever. How long is how many kids? You said that how, what's the time and emotion last viewed 9796 90 seconds. So it's that sort of stall, stall, watch a funny clip on YouTube, watch some do something that will say, Okay, I'm allowed to, but I need to stall, not feed the emotion
Susie Asli:and it will pass. But we our bodies, and our whole survival instinct is telling us that it's going to kill us. Yeah. So we have to be pretty strong
Rachel Richards:in it. Yes. And young people often catastrophize yes, they feel that they're going to fail in life spectacularly. That onset of self harm. The most common one is 13. And this is when they're being confronted with big changes in their life, things that they've never experienced. And we all know that first time you fall in love, and then it goes wrong. And you think you'll never be loved again, or you'll never love again. And you know, and it can be it feels catastrophic. But then once you you've been in love for a very long time, you know that you've got a lot more under your belt.
Susie Asli:And that's actually one of the greatest lessons, isn't it? We can we can help our kids with this. Things happen. They pass and you get to the other side? Yes. And we don't like that.
Rachel Richards:Yes. And helping them to to know that even if their immediate hopes don't get fulfilled, there will be a future where they could come true. And it's sort of been give giving them a long term perspective on how to manage their emotions and that things can get better.
Susie Asli:Yeah, it's kind of a wider trust that you'll be fine. You will be okay. Whatever happens along the way you you'll be okay.
Rachel Richards:Yes, and reminding them that you love them unconditionally. It's got nothing to do with their success in anything. This is. So it's actually, whilst we, there are many, many, many reasons why somebody might self harm. The way in which we can help as parents is also looking at ourselves. What do we do when we're struggling with intense emotions? Yeah, do are we self medicating, as they might call it, for example, with alcohol? Or are we doing other things, you know, that would then lead our teenager to think this sort of behavior is acceptable, it's a good way to deal with problems.
Susie Asli:I think it's a really good point. And also, it can help us to have a conversation with our teams, and they might think, oh, lumps, and really get it. But it's also it's showing that we want to understand so yeah, you know, sometimes I feel overwhelmed. Sometimes I feel completely out of control and what and then I, you know, personally, I go for a run or whatever your own thing is, so that they have an understanding that you do, you're at least trying to understand what the where they're coming from?
Rachel Richards:Yes. And so and when you see an emotion, because a lot of these teenagers are struggling to identify their emotions and process them. So we can be very, very helpful by spotting an emotion when it occurs and saying, I think I think you're feeling this. Yeah. And is that right? And then they can then perhaps verbalize it? Or they may say, No, that's,
Susie Asli:yeah. Yeah, that's sort of therapy training. You know, if you see a flicker of a flicker of an emotion in what's being said, you go, Ah, if it's a slight annoyance, oh, gosh, that must have been really annoying. And then they either go, yeah, it was really annoying. And then this happened, or and then you know, that you've that's resonated, and that's helpful for them. Or they might go, Well, no, actually, it was more, I felt more actually sad, or whatever their situation is, and then you can explore that with them. But if you're mirroring it back, and you know, feeding it back the whole time, so if it felt like that, that's really helpful for them.
Rachel Richards:So I think all the time. And I know it sounds quite intense, and you don't have to be doing it all the time. But the point is that you've got somebody in your family who is going through new emotions that they're struggling to understand. So anything that everybody in the family can do to support them with that and the school too, and encourage them to stop their thought train and get off it. Yeah. So so. Yeah, no, exactly. No, and that but there was another lady I saw who was talking about her own experiences, and she said the thing that I found helped Four was, do the next right thing. So rather than saying I'm not going to do because if you say, don't look at the pink elephant, everyone looks at the pink elephant. So if you say, I'm going to find the next good thing to do, and use that really good to keep me going until I've got through these intense emotions,
Susie Asli:and also the idea that just because a child self harms now, as awful as that is, and I'm not belittling that in any way, you know, they can be helped. And it's a phase and it's a difficult time in their lives. But it's not a life sentence.
Rachel Richards:Yes. And I'm not just focusing in on it, oh, my God, my job's self harming and my everything's so actually pointing out the great things in life and making life feel more light so that they're not dragged constantly back into reminders and dragged constantly back into this dangerous hole.
Susie Asli:And their every day isn't a constant checking in on the self harm. Have you caught yourself today? When did you last cut yourself? What are you doing? Where are you going? Because I mean, that doesn't sound very fun, no good way of getting away from it.
Rachel Richards:And I know there's one mother particularly he said, Look, I, you know, my daughter does self harm. I found things in her room that to me look like they would be used for that. I don't know what to do. Do I take them away? Do I talk to her about it? What would you think Suzy?
Susie Asli:I don't know. That's a really good question. I mean, from the the talk and things I've read about and heard about as well, you know, you can minimize the risk, as we spoke about before you can minimize the risk of these things, which is a really good thing to do. You know, you don't want them doing these dangerous things. But it's not solving the problem. You know, if again, it's it's the problem underneath. But yeah, minimize the risk.
Rachel Richards:Yeah. I wonder whether it is worth bringing it up and saying, so I can see that. Maybe you are struggling again. And why don't we find a diversion. So one of the things I found and I didn't want to equate the two, but one of the things I found helpful with eating when I overeat was that I realized that there I was doing it as a distraction. And I made a list of things that gave me pleasure. And instead of going down that route, I would go, I would choose something from the list. And it actually was really effective. Now, obviously, this is not the same thing. But having a list of things as a standby ready for those catastrophic moments when they can't cope. So having the emergency pack for example of things that they like slashing an empty plastic bottle instead of their own arm.
Susie Asli:Yeah, so even just having that conversation with them that they can maybe start to think, oh, there are alternatives. Even if they can't do anything on that list, or that list doesn't help them. It might do it might be amazing. But the idea that there are alternatives to feeling, you know, when you're feeling bad, you you could do something else you might not be able to for a while, but you could that's a possibility in the future. And in
Rachel Richards:a way, if you have this conversation, in a calm moment, when they're not feeling upset, and you say, I recognize that you're not It's not easy, and it's not going to be solved overnight. And I'm not telling you, you shouldn't do things. What I'm trying to do is wrap you in, you know, wrap you up and show you love and say okay, we're going to find, you know, alternatives, and here they are.
Susie Asli:Or if there's something in their room you're unsure about, maybe you can ask them, you know, is there anything in here that you feel unsafe with me leaving in here? Or is there anything you'd like me to remove? You know what
Rachel Richards:to do? Yeah, it's good point. Yes. And they might actually say this, or they may think
Susie Asli:they might didn't?
Rachel Richards:Don't look under the pillow don't look. You? But yeah, so the most important thing is keeping your child safe, obviously. And I think a lot of people are concerned about suicide risk. Yes, they've suicide risk goes up dramatically. If they've self harmed more than 20 times don't sit there and count them in. But just know that people who self harm longer it does. It does increase the risk.
Susie Asli:Yeah. And I think people panic when because they have self harm and suicide have been linked. But they are tenuous. And I think the idea is really that behind the driving force behind both of those things, is this horrible discomfort and pain. And that's the
Rachel Richards:link and they don't want to die. Most of them don't want to die. They just want to self harm. Do not commit suicide. Absolutely, absolutely. So don't panic about that. The most important thing is you really do need help. Very few people who self harm can just fix it themselves. Because what they've done is they've gone into a space where they found a technique to to help themselves and it's not the right one and they need slow on picking up that. So those are my two dogs, they have no manners and they get excited at the slightest movement outside. So I'm so very sorry. But moving on. It's so important that you actually get help from somebody who knows what they're talking about and knows how to help unpick what's going on and that could be you know, a mini you You're not a mental health worker. So you do need some support. So there are lots of help lines and phone numbers and people to lean on.
Susie Asli:Yeah, and also tried to do it alone. It's a lonely place to be, you know, it's really, really important that as parents, we get support when our kids are struggling with whatever that looks like. It's hard.
Rachel Richards:Now Suzie, Emily says the last episode, covering anxiety and setting rules of home really made her think differently. She shared a great link on identity, which is a topic that will definitely cover some point in the near future. Thanks for that, Emily, it's good to have other eyes looking out for interesting material for our research. So always let us know if you see something you thought was really resonated with you? Yeah, absolutely. Thank you, Emily. Now we all know that communication is at the heart of great parenting. But how we communicate matters just as much as what we say. I used to do a workshop for parent Jim on in which we looked at different talking styles, which was great fun, so I've decided to adapt it for us. Now, it's easy, let's run through the styles. And then we can talk about ways to adapt them to get the best out of our relationship with our teams.
Susie Asli:So I have got the shouter so the sheriff's a special power is a super short fuse. They're talking style, they take their frustration out on their teen, especially at the end of a long day. Or when they're having a tough time, they find an excuse to lash out even if the child has done nothing wrong. They might be thinking if I'm in a bad mood, I've got every right to let it out. There most likely to say, are you still holding a knife and fork like that? For God's sake, will you ever learn or just shut up and give me some peace and quiet. They make the team field scared, guilty nervous of setting their parent off, insecure and angry.
Rachel Richards:And I've got the best friend special power, a runaway mouth, talking style, they share too much with their team. They talk about their personal issues like for example, their divorce and their feelings are feeling lonely. And they ask their team questions that are too personal and they don't like disciplining their team, they might think me and my kids are best friends. I'm so lucky to have them to talk to. They're most likely to say I hate your dad's got a new girlfriend. Oh, it's not fair. Why can't I meet someone what's wrong with me. And they make the teen feel uncomfortable under pressure to support their parent and possibly resentful.
Susie Asli:So then the next one is the hot and cold tap. Their special power is mega mood swings, their talking style, emotionally unstable and constantly changes the way they talk to their child. One moment they're loving and talkative. The next they clam up and the next they scream and shout. They think I try to be consistent with my team. But sometimes it's hard. They're most likely to say, Hey, should we get outside and play some cricket? And then five minutes later down? Why do you have to do things that take up so much time? I've got to make supper and the laundry still hasn't gone on? Go find something else to do. They make the child feel confused, insecure, nervous about what mood their parent will be in next.
Rachel Richards:And finally the ice queen or king, special power blank expression, an unfriendly tone of voice talking style doesn't show any affection or any emotion good or bad to their team doesn't talk to them. Unless it's to ask them to do something or tell them they screwed up. They think possibly I'm the breadwinner here teams should be seen and not heard very Edwardian really, most likely to say nothing at all. Make the team feel unloved, lonely, unsure of how their parent is feeling. And that then makes them feel very insecure. Ah, no. Did you? Did you regret
Susie Asli:any of that? I'll be honest, all of it.
Rachel Richards:When I was a younger parent, my daughters were little I think I was quite hot and cold happy. And the reason I was hot and cold was because I would get them home from school. And I'd be so thrilled to see them and it would be packed unpacking the day. How was it? Oh, lovely children. And then my phone would ring or my computer, I'd hear it ping. And I would still have a lot of unfinished business from during the day. And my mood was switched because I would now be focusing on that. And they would still be in full chat mode or wanting things and I'd snap. Yeah. And say I'm you know, I'm I'm on the phone for God's sake. And I realized that actually that switch in the temperaments can be very confusing, and I think it's still confusing. It doesn't matter what age you are. I mean, you think about whether your husband or wife or partner treats you like that. You can start thinking well, what did I say wrong? Yeah. And it's amplified for a child.
Susie Asli:Yeah. And encourages sort of walking on eggshells type of atmosphere, doesn't it? I recognize the hot and cold tap from when my kids were little and I think when I was going through my divorce and things were difficult, and I wasn't, didn't have the capacity to you know, so I wanted to be The hot one, but then suddenly, you know, the it got hard. And then you're tired. And you know, you have a short fuse. So yeah, recognize very,
Rachel Richards:very easily done. And I think also the friend, I think the thing I always have to remind myself is that I can be their best friend, but they're not my best friend. And I think there's a fine line between sort of making a joke out of the things that are frustrating about your partner, and which I do sometimes. And actually criticizing them in front of your children say, you sort of have to think is this funny? And is it funny to them? And does it show that I still love them? It's not. And I think if it sounds like you're criticizing them, whilst it's sort of there's a free sign of interest there. It feels very uncomfortable. Yeah. If you say things like,
Susie Asli:I really like the idea that you can be, what did you say they can, you can be their best friend, but they can't they can't be yours. I like that. Because you can have you know, I have chats with my teenagers about, you know, who do you like, and we have, you know, girly chats me and my daughter, and it's really, really lovely. But I would never be burdening her with my stuff. I think that's, that's done. It's been it's gone. Beyond what okay.
Rachel Richards:Yeah, absolutely. And it's not a comfortable place. But I remember, I know somebody who was told by his mother, after his brother had died, and she was divorced. She said to him, Well, it's just you and me now. And that's a very painful, difficult thing to give a son. And it's not a role. That is a very kind role, to be honest. So we need to find other ways of dealing with these things, because we're human beings, rather than beating yourself up. So the True Parent, is there special power? Is there perfectly balanced levels of affection, sharing and discipline? Oh, yeah. I'm exactly like that for five minutes a day. They're talking style, they have friendly chats with their child, they say I love you is open with them, but never shares too much. They're willing to discipline their child when they need to be disciplined. They think my child knows I love them, but I'm their parent, not their best friend. And I will explain to them that something's wrong if it is wrong. And I said discipline bla, actually, you know, they, it's about you putting boundaries in place, and most likely to say, sweetie, can you put the Can you lay the table? Rather than right? Have you laid the table? You've got that wrong? Where's that? It's about just the way you talk to them. And I always say to my kids, I will talk to you the way I talk. I expect people to talk to me. And the way I'll talk to, you know, the cleaner who comes in, I would never direct them without being polite. I'm conscious about how I treat other people. And I'm expecting them to be the same with me. And likewise me with them. Absolutely. And it makes the child feel loved and secure. Be confident that there are rules, there are boundaries, and they need to be upheld. Yes,
Susie Asli:yeah. Yeah. And it's, you know, I think we flit in and out of all of them, and that's fine. We're not trying to be perfect. No, can't be.
Rachel Richards:And that the I mean, the shouter My father was a shelter. Yeah. And it's, it makes you I spent a lot of time trying to watch what because he would tell me off and I think, oh, okay, I shouldn't do that I need to, and I've watched him to see what I was supposed to be doing. And then I'd realize that a lot of his shouting wasn't, it wasn't consistent, and didn't, it didn't come true. I couldn't work out what it was I was doing. And eventually I just thought, Okay, well, I'll just switch off. You know, there's no point in listening to you, because none of it is consistent, doesn't work. It doesn't work. So it's not a really good way to be.
Susie Asli:And it doesn't feel very nice as a parent. I mean, in our generation, and I don't know how it was earlier, maybe they felt that that was the right way to be. But no, you know, that's the thing I get told loads of times from my clients. You know, I shouted at my kids, it feels it feels really horrible. Nobody wants to I shouted at my kids, it feels horrible. So we need to learn the tools that help us to not do that. And then also forgive ourselves when we do because we're human.
Rachel Richards:And I used to use a phrase with my kids when they were younger it shouty mommy is going to come out. And when I said that my kids really paid attention I use it on my husband sometimes. Not mommy, because that would be weird. But I yeah, I because I very rarely and that's the interesting thing. I very rarely lose my temper, but when I do, it's very noticeable. And that in a way is much more effective. And it's Yeah, I think it's really important to have a home where you feel safe.
Susie Asli:Yeah, I mean, I know for sure that I used to lose my temper a lot more when the kids were little and when I was when things were hard for me it was going through the divorce moving countries, you know, things things were I was under more strain so your fuse is shorter, and they hated you know Whenever I lost my temper, they hated it. And you know, they would feed that back immediately. Right.
Rachel Richards:And I think with the ice queen, and king, my husband has a tendency to be like that. And I think it's because he's very preoccupied. He's both preoccupied because he's sort of planet brain. And he's in his head a lot of the time. But I also think it's just his style. And I also think he was brought up in in that style where boys and men didn't really express what they thought or felt. And I think he often doesn't realize how when he walks into the room, if he is in his own mental space, it there's this like ice Enos that parses the room, because, because everybody notices it, except him. Yeah. And, and so my point is, he's not trying to make other people feel uncomfortable, and he's not. And then he'll notice the child, my teenager doing something wrong, and he'll point it out. And that doesn't feel very nice. But he's changed a huge amount, because we've given him some really constructive. They were my one of my daughters is brilliant, because she'll always she's an attacker, so she will, if he picks her up on something, she'll say, okay, and then she will watch Him every moment until he does it. And then she will point it out. And say, you said you said, so actually, as a as a family, we've really progressed as human beings, just because we're all feeding back to each other. And that's the great thing about families is, is it's a place where you can sort of cut your teeth in a social way, and learn what behavior doesn't doesn't work and
Susie Asli:experiment with different things. And maybe that's the whole point of having these categories, because of course, they're fluid. And of course, we dip in and out of all of them is awareness, isn't it? It's awareness. Are you just copying your family? Yes. Like you said, maybe your husband is, without questioning it. You're just because that's what we do. If we don't question we just do what are we either do what our parents did, or we do the opposite, like we've spoken about before. And then, you know, an awareness of wouldn't do I like the way I am, you know, do I like being like that? What works? And can I do I want to try something different? Yeah, absolutely. I don't have the awareness and how can we choose.
Rachel Richards:And I remember my friend's husband going for, she refused to marry him, until he'd actually had some anger management. And, you know, what he learned was that he'd learnt that technique from his father, who would also let out his feelings and emotions. And for my friend, it came across as you know, really unpleasant. But in his own home that had been the usual technique for dealing with, you know, being cross or upset. That's really which is unfair. You know, it's unfortunate because it was affecting their relationship. Thankfully, he did. And it all worked out. So how can we give you some top tips? The I'll give the shouter top tips get rid of frustration by doing something physical like going for a run. If you've had a bad day at work, ranted, a colleague or a friend instead of your kids, don't use your kids to deal with this, you need to find or even write it down or whatever. And when you feel yourself about to snap at your kids leave the room for five minutes and take some deep breaths to calm down. I teach my kids this technique. And I and I'll if they've upset me, I'll say we're not talking about this right now. I'm feeling emotional, and it's not going to work. Yeah,
Susie Asli:it's practicing the pause, isn't it? I had to do that this morning. And why teenagers boy, you missed his bus and I had to drive him to college away chose to drive into college and miss something I had to do. And our car car conversation started with me being like, man. And then he sort of looked at me when are you picking a fight or something? Yeah, okay, right. Okay, I've chosen to drive you in. Okay, let's just talk about this in a different way. Yeah, it was much better. So top tips for the best friend before you share something with your child think? How is this going to make them feel? If the answer is uncomfortable, embarrassed or under pressure, don't do it. Build up a circle of friends that you can talk to so you don't have to rely on your kids. And if your child is misbehaving, don't be afraid to discipline them. Even if they get upset and you feel bad stand your ground. That's your
Rachel Richards:job. Yes, I've spoken to quite a few parents who have felt uncomfortable about setting boundaries. And and there are lots and lots of discussions between parents about what is and isn't acceptable. And there are lots of parents who are quite strict, who find it shocking when they see that there are no boundaries and other houses. And so yes, these are sliding scales, we will have different tolerances, the hot and cold tap. If you're feeling wobbly, take yourself away from your kids until you're feeling more stable. If you're feeling emotional, full stop shouter, whatever it is. Just try and remove yourself first. If you swing between huge highs and massive lows, it might be worth talking to the doctor if you are actually if there's not a really good reason. So for example with me, there were things triggering it, I took away the things that were triggering it so the phone, I switched everything off, so that if I was with my children, I was present with them. If you're finding these big highs and lows and there doesn't seem to be a really good trick Go, then maybe you might have Bipolar issues or there might be other things going on that are worth talking to a professional about. If you've been unreasonable with your child or teenager, apologize, give them a hug and a kiss and say, I'm really sorry that that wasn't necessary. I was just feeling this. Because you'll gain their respect because they'll think, okay, I get that. Yeah. But if it doesn't get dealt with, then it's just going to make them feel awful.
Susie Asli:Yeah, we all have ups and downs, so easily swing all of us because we're human beings, it's just working out how do I deal with it? So the ice queen or king, tell your child you'd love them. Spend at least 15 minutes a day, this is recommended in here, having a friendly chat with your child or doing a fun activity. How can kiss your child when they're behaving? Well, or because you feel like it? Yeah, my eldest teen, I actually did hug him not wanted one the other day and we made a joke out of it. I was like, Come on, I'm gonna hug you. Okay, and he stood embraced.
Rachel Richards:Did he actually had his hands by sorry, made
Susie Asli:him put them up around me and say, Come on, come on, do this. You can do you can do this. It was very funny. And the other two who were really huggy were like going, come on, you can do it.
Rachel Richards:That's hilarious. That reminds me of my, my daughter when she was quite little. And this boy who was her best friend to come up to give her a hug. And she stood there with her hands by her side. And he said, No, like you mean it?
Susie Asli:And it's a balance, isn't it? Because of course, we don't want to make our kids, you know, be physical, and they don't want to be. But you can do in a jokey way. Yeah, you just mucking about.
Rachel Richards:I loved it when one of my old boyfriends said that his father, they'd be driving along and his father would just grab his hand and hold it. And I thought, well, it's like I do that with my daughters. And it's lovely. Yeah, just they holding hands with that connectedness. And you don't even have to talk. You don't have to the sometimes it feels less. Sort of too intense. Yeah. If you're doing that, but then they know they're grounded than they know in their mind. You I said to my daughter the other day, so you're grounded, you know, because she said I'd Calm down now because she'd been upset about something. I gave her a hug and I was just holding her hand. And she pulled him in. Like, you
Susie Asli:don't know what, that's really confusing.
Rachel Richards:So don't use that term. It doesn't work. It was really upset. So talking of talking in the next episode we're going to talk about effing and blinding is a term we use in England. For those of you who are listening in America, Australia, Hong Kong, Dubai, it's swearing. Why is it so offensive and what do your teens get out of it? Also, we looked into teenage girls friendships so we thought it was time we delve into the way teenage boys relate to each other, and how we can best support them. That's it for now. Don't forget to follow us on your podcast platform. Review us if you can. Really helps other people to find our podcast. And we're also on Instagram or Facebook and Susie's own website, which is Susie Aslan mindfulness.co.uk. Until next time, goodbye. Bye bye for now.
